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Europe/Other : Ethics on forgeries

 

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virgilp

03 Oct 2019
03:26:16pm
I would like to start a discussion about forgeries. And I want it related mainly to Romanian stamps. I am sure that it can be linked almost to any country, because stamps were forged almost any where.
Recently, searching some offers at various sites, I "discovered", if you can say that this is a discovery, that many stamps from Romania were fake, but offered at high prices. How many buyers will think that what he/she buys is fake? If it is offered, mainly at a high price, and there is no mention that the stamps are fakes, what do you think he/she will do?
Sometimes the seller does not know that what is put on sale is fake! And how many buyers are educated to check the stamps? How many fake stamps certified as genuine stamps got "professional certificates"?
Now, let's return to my problem. I am not a so called professional certifier. What would be the word to use here, because I am not a native English or American?
But searching some stamps offered at those sites, I found out that the stamps were forgeries.
I thought that would be fare to let the seller(s) know that the stamps are forgeries and I suggested him/them to visit the sites where these stamps were mentioned as fakes.
And now the story starts. Few did not want to reply. But one seller replied, in a very arrogant and unfriendly way, why I contest his stamps? Who I am that I tried to blow his credentials and many more words like that. That he is selling stamps for many, many years and NOBODY, till now, questioned his credentials which are impeccable! He does not want to SEE MY SITES, etc., etc.
I tried to be calm and explain that I am not contesting his credentials, but to be fare with the buyer, he needs to let him/her know that the stamps are fakes.
He did answer anymore and did not revise the listing. Not the others did.
My dilemma: should I do more or stop here?
About me. I collect Romanian stamps for many years. Some long time ago, when I also forgot to educate myself, I got "burned" by purchasing a very expensive set, which, of course, was a forgery. I discovered this thing few weeks ago! But now it is too late. I even do not remember who sold it to me. And even if I know, what can be done?
Sorry for this long story. I would like to let the members of this community that ALMOST any Romanian stamp from #1 till xxxx may exists in a forged copy. And mainly classic ones. All issues from year 1906 are also abundant in forgeries! Some are so "perfect" that it is hard to figure out if the stamps are genuine or not. Recently a thread about "Europe/Other : Roumania, 1858 SG3, Wove Paper, Cut To Shape" was related with a Romanian fake stamp.

To end this long "novel" how we should react if we see forgeries offered without the description that they are forgeries? May be the seller does not know, very possible, may be he/she inherited the stamps or bought them at an auction, etc.

Does somebody want to buy my expensive "forged" set? Of course kidding!
Thanks everybody who had the patience to read my note, and I will be glad if we can have some opinions about this issue.
Virgil



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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

03 Oct 2019
05:53:42pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Ethics on forgeries

"Sometimes the seller does not know that what is put on sale is fake! "



That's Me!!

I buy mixed boxes at auction. I keep what I want for my own collection and then sell the rest, mostly on Stamporama.

I am not an expert so any fakes that appear in my lots is purely down to lack of knowledge and is unintentional. If a customer gets a fake then all they have to do is let me know and a refund will be issued.

I try to put a decent scan with each lot to let people make their own assessment of what's on offer.

Stamp collecting can be so diverse that not one person can know everything about everything.

I feel sometimes that too much is expected of sellers. A member may be an expert in their field but should not expect every member to have their knowledge or collects to their high standard.

That is not a criticism but a reality of the diverse membership that we have here.

Yes share your knowledge here, help and explain to others where you can and those of us that are not experts can educate ourselves.


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rjan
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03 Oct 2019
06:02:38pm
re: Ethics on forgeries

I understand the issues. I purchased Romanian stamps and found about half were forgeries. I use my usual sources to check almost all classic purchases. There are ready sources on line as well as some standard sources in my library. I would not deal with a dealer who rejects out of hand a claim that materials offered are forgeries, especially if a sale has not yet been made. My current preference is to deal with an eBay dealer who accepts returns unquestioned. This protects me from hidden damage (most frequent) and forger items (rare but existent).

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okstamps
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03 Oct 2019
07:10:30pm
re: Ethics on forgeries

I am now selling off my stamp collection, individual stamp by individual stamp. While I specialized in a few countries, I did end up with a wide variety of material from all over the world. I have many early issues. Scott does note in some instances that certain issues have been extensively forged and strongly suggests that experts examine those issues to pass judgement. For other issues that may have been forged there are no warnings. In those instances I would make the assumption that the copy I possess is authentic.

Where I do not have a good idea about whether a stamp is authentic, I will submit it to the American Philatelic Society for an expert opinion. The certificate that they generate will then be included with the stamp when it is sold. Since I save the digital images that I generate for my auctions even after the stamps are sold, I am slowly building up a nice library of stamp images that will give me a good reference in the future to check for forged copies.

For stamps that I not aware were forged, if I happen to list one for sale that someone on this board sees is a forgery, please let me know! I will remove it from sale and try to verify its authenticity (or lack thereof).

I do have some early Romanian stamps that I will eventually get around to listing. The only stamp issues that Scotts notes as being forged are the two 1903 sets. No other notes about counterfeit stamps, although there are numerous warnings about forged cancellations.

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

04 Oct 2019
04:57:41am

Approvals
re: Ethics on forgeries

Always keep in mind that the knowledge base used to authenticate stamps is "a work in progress". Some stamps that have traded for decades with "good certs" are now considered forgeries. Some stamps that received "bad certs" are now considered genuine.

Stamps and postal history considered "rare" (either unique or few known) can lose their "rarity" with the discovery of multiple copies in a fresh collection.

Ethics - what are the ethics of stumbling across a hoard of several copies of a known but unverified postal marking thought to be one of a kind? Do you destroy the value of the lone copy that may have sold in the tens of thousands of dollars? Do you sell one and reap the profits? What do you do with the rest of the copies - do you destroy them, hoard them, publicize a find?

I'm just a little cog in the philatelic world - but I have a good eye and have "found" and sold quite a few "spoilers" over the years (some unknowingly). I have the acquaintance of many of the upper echelon of dealers/historians in the philatelic world and the knowledge they have shared has given me a different view if the world of stamps.

Nothing is 100 per cent.

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DaveSheridan
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04 Oct 2019
05:34:01am
re: Ethics on forgeries

I always advise the seller if they knowingly or unknowingly have forgeries for sale. I've received some very blunt replies. I've unknowingly had forgeries for sale myself, and have withdrawn them from sale immediately when advised.

With the amount of specialised data available online today, there is really little excuse for selling forgeries, but I did!

Just for fun, try buying a set of Romania 1903 New Post Office issues without getting at least one forgery in the mix

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kgvistamps
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Collecting King George VI from all countries, and King Edward VII and King George V from the West Indies.

04 Oct 2019
10:00:47am
re: Ethics on forgeries

I expertise stamps for the APS (British Colonies), and when I see an obvious mistake on ebay I send the seller a message and let them know why the stamp is misidentified. Usually it is not a forgery just the wrong catalog number. I have the correct stamps identified on my website, so I send them a scan of the right stamp and an explanation of why they are wrong about their ID. About half of the ebay sellers change or drop the listing. Others don't respond or do anything about it. As far as I can tell there is no other recourse. Ebay doesn't seem to have a mechanism for contesting the identification unless you purchase the stamp. So I guess you just have to avoid dealing with them.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

04 Oct 2019
10:09:26am
re: Ethics on forgeries

(I'm not talking about Stamporama, as my role here puts me in a different position to handle this matter.)

Sometimes, on other sites, I will attempt to tell a seller that there is a bogus stamp listed for sale. I get mixed results from those contacts. I tell them why I think so. A few are appreciative and remove the listing. Most are indignant as Virgil stated. The last time, the seller told me to sell music CDs as I obviously didn't know what I was talking about. In his opinion, he had that rare 1 cent, green Franklin that everyone seems to have. But, it's the same when I contact someone about forged Iranian stamps, etc.

The problem is that many sellers/collectors:

- don't care that they are selling forgeries (whether they know it to be a forgery or not). They want the money, and consider it to be the buyer who is responsible to determine the status of the item.

- don't know that they are selling a forgery

- only look at a catalogue for a picture, number and value (usually the highest value found) and use that

- don't take the time to learn how to use catalogues, and then what resources are available beyond the catalogue to help determine the genuineness of an item, especially when a catalogue states that forgeries abound

What are the reasons for those points? Could be one or a combination of at least laziness, lack of caring, or true fraudulent intent.

Fortunately, I believe that most sellers/collectors do not want to intentionally sell bogus items (unless they inform potential buyers that they are). People just have be be aware of their "surroundings", and educate themselves as to the perils of wandering into the slums of the hobby.

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BWSchulz

04 Oct 2019
03:16:41pm
re: Ethics on forgeries

I'm happiest with dealers who list a questionable stamp for sale who state, "probable forgery," or "presumed reprint," or something similar. I like fakes. I add them to my Latin America collection, labeled for what they are. The same is true of my German States material. I have two pages of faked cancels on German inflation stamps. They're part of philatelic history. But dealers who sell them without noting what they are or probably are should be avoided.

Sometimes, if you really know your collecting interest, you can find something labeled "fake" that isn't.

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

04 Oct 2019
04:32:31pm
re: Ethics on forgeries

In a black and white context, I am not sure that ‘intent’ matters. If a stamp is listed as being catalog #123 then consumers have a case for ‘not as described’ (eBay) or misrepresentation (contract law) in most countries.

In some countries the intent matters in terms of the applicable penalty. A differentiation is made between ‘fraudulent misrepresentation’, ‘negligent misrepresentation’ or ‘innocent misrepresentation’ but the misrepresentation laws all fall in favor of the consumer.

Stamp Smarter has a database of over 2000 eBay listing reviews and in the majority of them we contacted the sellers before the listings closed. I used a carefully worded polite message that meekly asked about the listing while making it clear that I might be mistaken since I was working from an image and did not have the stamp in hand. I also mentioned that I was sure the seller was interested in avoiding unhappy buyers, costly returns, or negative feedbacks.

The results were that about 70% of the sellers responded positively. Of course not all agreed but they were professional and polite. Many times we got a reply like ‘gee, I am not sure, these were my grandfathers and I am just selling them as he identified them’. (Note that many of these seller had a track record of making hundreds stamp purchases!)

About 30% of the sellers responded aggressively with name calling and insults. Also note that many instantly blocked us from either making purchases or even messaging them in the future. We also had several attempts at other forms of retribution. This should be kept in mind if anyone attempts to contact sellers.

In my opinion anyone who splits out individual stamps and assigns them a catalog number AND/OR condition is on the hook both legally and ethically.
Don


Edit; Here is a sample of the type of message I would send

"Good Day,
If you have the time, could you take another look at this listing? It may be misidentified as SG 162, the image appears to show a SG 160b. The true SG 162 has a much deeper blue frame color. Of course I am only able to view the image and do not have the stamp in hand. If I am mistaken, then I apologize. I just wanted to give you a heads up to avoid any potential misunderstandings, angry buyers, and/or costly returns."



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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

04 Oct 2019
05:13:50pm
re: Ethics on forgeries

Your message to buyers is similar to what I send them. However, I like yours better.

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Author/Postings
virgilp

03 Oct 2019
03:26:16pm

I would like to start a discussion about forgeries. And I want it related mainly to Romanian stamps. I am sure that it can be linked almost to any country, because stamps were forged almost any where.
Recently, searching some offers at various sites, I "discovered", if you can say that this is a discovery, that many stamps from Romania were fake, but offered at high prices. How many buyers will think that what he/she buys is fake? If it is offered, mainly at a high price, and there is no mention that the stamps are fakes, what do you think he/she will do?
Sometimes the seller does not know that what is put on sale is fake! And how many buyers are educated to check the stamps? How many fake stamps certified as genuine stamps got "professional certificates"?
Now, let's return to my problem. I am not a so called professional certifier. What would be the word to use here, because I am not a native English or American?
But searching some stamps offered at those sites, I found out that the stamps were forgeries.
I thought that would be fare to let the seller(s) know that the stamps are forgeries and I suggested him/them to visit the sites where these stamps were mentioned as fakes.
And now the story starts. Few did not want to reply. But one seller replied, in a very arrogant and unfriendly way, why I contest his stamps? Who I am that I tried to blow his credentials and many more words like that. That he is selling stamps for many, many years and NOBODY, till now, questioned his credentials which are impeccable! He does not want to SEE MY SITES, etc., etc.
I tried to be calm and explain that I am not contesting his credentials, but to be fare with the buyer, he needs to let him/her know that the stamps are fakes.
He did answer anymore and did not revise the listing. Not the others did.
My dilemma: should I do more or stop here?
About me. I collect Romanian stamps for many years. Some long time ago, when I also forgot to educate myself, I got "burned" by purchasing a very expensive set, which, of course, was a forgery. I discovered this thing few weeks ago! But now it is too late. I even do not remember who sold it to me. And even if I know, what can be done?
Sorry for this long story. I would like to let the members of this community that ALMOST any Romanian stamp from #1 till xxxx may exists in a forged copy. And mainly classic ones. All issues from year 1906 are also abundant in forgeries! Some are so "perfect" that it is hard to figure out if the stamps are genuine or not. Recently a thread about "Europe/Other : Roumania, 1858 SG3, Wove Paper, Cut To Shape" was related with a Romanian fake stamp.

To end this long "novel" how we should react if we see forgeries offered without the description that they are forgeries? May be the seller does not know, very possible, may be he/she inherited the stamps or bought them at an auction, etc.

Does somebody want to buy my expensive "forged" set? Of course kidding!
Thanks everybody who had the patience to read my note, and I will be glad if we can have some opinions about this issue.
Virgil



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Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
03 Oct 2019
05:53:42pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Ethics on forgeries

"Sometimes the seller does not know that what is put on sale is fake! "



That's Me!!

I buy mixed boxes at auction. I keep what I want for my own collection and then sell the rest, mostly on Stamporama.

I am not an expert so any fakes that appear in my lots is purely down to lack of knowledge and is unintentional. If a customer gets a fake then all they have to do is let me know and a refund will be issued.

I try to put a decent scan with each lot to let people make their own assessment of what's on offer.

Stamp collecting can be so diverse that not one person can know everything about everything.

I feel sometimes that too much is expected of sellers. A member may be an expert in their field but should not expect every member to have their knowledge or collects to their high standard.

That is not a criticism but a reality of the diverse membership that we have here.

Yes share your knowledge here, help and explain to others where you can and those of us that are not experts can educate ourselves.


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rjan

03 Oct 2019
06:02:38pm

re: Ethics on forgeries

I understand the issues. I purchased Romanian stamps and found about half were forgeries. I use my usual sources to check almost all classic purchases. There are ready sources on line as well as some standard sources in my library. I would not deal with a dealer who rejects out of hand a claim that materials offered are forgeries, especially if a sale has not yet been made. My current preference is to deal with an eBay dealer who accepts returns unquestioned. This protects me from hidden damage (most frequent) and forger items (rare but existent).

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this post
Members Picture
okstamps

03 Oct 2019
07:10:30pm

re: Ethics on forgeries

I am now selling off my stamp collection, individual stamp by individual stamp. While I specialized in a few countries, I did end up with a wide variety of material from all over the world. I have many early issues. Scott does note in some instances that certain issues have been extensively forged and strongly suggests that experts examine those issues to pass judgement. For other issues that may have been forged there are no warnings. In those instances I would make the assumption that the copy I possess is authentic.

Where I do not have a good idea about whether a stamp is authentic, I will submit it to the American Philatelic Society for an expert opinion. The certificate that they generate will then be included with the stamp when it is sold. Since I save the digital images that I generate for my auctions even after the stamps are sold, I am slowly building up a nice library of stamp images that will give me a good reference in the future to check for forged copies.

For stamps that I not aware were forged, if I happen to list one for sale that someone on this board sees is a forgery, please let me know! I will remove it from sale and try to verify its authenticity (or lack thereof).

I do have some early Romanian stamps that I will eventually get around to listing. The only stamp issues that Scotts notes as being forged are the two 1903 sets. No other notes about counterfeit stamps, although there are numerous warnings about forged cancellations.

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

04 Oct 2019
04:57:41am

Approvals

re: Ethics on forgeries

Always keep in mind that the knowledge base used to authenticate stamps is "a work in progress". Some stamps that have traded for decades with "good certs" are now considered forgeries. Some stamps that received "bad certs" are now considered genuine.

Stamps and postal history considered "rare" (either unique or few known) can lose their "rarity" with the discovery of multiple copies in a fresh collection.

Ethics - what are the ethics of stumbling across a hoard of several copies of a known but unverified postal marking thought to be one of a kind? Do you destroy the value of the lone copy that may have sold in the tens of thousands of dollars? Do you sell one and reap the profits? What do you do with the rest of the copies - do you destroy them, hoard them, publicize a find?

I'm just a little cog in the philatelic world - but I have a good eye and have "found" and sold quite a few "spoilers" over the years (some unknowingly). I have the acquaintance of many of the upper echelon of dealers/historians in the philatelic world and the knowledge they have shared has given me a different view if the world of stamps.

Nothing is 100 per cent.

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DaveSheridan

04 Oct 2019
05:34:01am

re: Ethics on forgeries

I always advise the seller if they knowingly or unknowingly have forgeries for sale. I've received some very blunt replies. I've unknowingly had forgeries for sale myself, and have withdrawn them from sale immediately when advised.

With the amount of specialised data available online today, there is really little excuse for selling forgeries, but I did!

Just for fun, try buying a set of Romania 1903 New Post Office issues without getting at least one forgery in the mix

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Collecting King George VI from all countries, and King Edward VII and King George V from the West Indies.
04 Oct 2019
10:00:47am

re: Ethics on forgeries

I expertise stamps for the APS (British Colonies), and when I see an obvious mistake on ebay I send the seller a message and let them know why the stamp is misidentified. Usually it is not a forgery just the wrong catalog number. I have the correct stamps identified on my website, so I send them a scan of the right stamp and an explanation of why they are wrong about their ID. About half of the ebay sellers change or drop the listing. Others don't respond or do anything about it. As far as I can tell there is no other recourse. Ebay doesn't seem to have a mechanism for contesting the identification unless you purchase the stamp. So I guess you just have to avoid dealing with them.

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
04 Oct 2019
10:09:26am

re: Ethics on forgeries

(I'm not talking about Stamporama, as my role here puts me in a different position to handle this matter.)

Sometimes, on other sites, I will attempt to tell a seller that there is a bogus stamp listed for sale. I get mixed results from those contacts. I tell them why I think so. A few are appreciative and remove the listing. Most are indignant as Virgil stated. The last time, the seller told me to sell music CDs as I obviously didn't know what I was talking about. In his opinion, he had that rare 1 cent, green Franklin that everyone seems to have. But, it's the same when I contact someone about forged Iranian stamps, etc.

The problem is that many sellers/collectors:

- don't care that they are selling forgeries (whether they know it to be a forgery or not). They want the money, and consider it to be the buyer who is responsible to determine the status of the item.

- don't know that they are selling a forgery

- only look at a catalogue for a picture, number and value (usually the highest value found) and use that

- don't take the time to learn how to use catalogues, and then what resources are available beyond the catalogue to help determine the genuineness of an item, especially when a catalogue states that forgeries abound

What are the reasons for those points? Could be one or a combination of at least laziness, lack of caring, or true fraudulent intent.

Fortunately, I believe that most sellers/collectors do not want to intentionally sell bogus items (unless they inform potential buyers that they are). People just have be be aware of their "surroundings", and educate themselves as to the perils of wandering into the slums of the hobby.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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BWSchulz

04 Oct 2019
03:16:41pm

re: Ethics on forgeries

I'm happiest with dealers who list a questionable stamp for sale who state, "probable forgery," or "presumed reprint," or something similar. I like fakes. I add them to my Latin America collection, labeled for what they are. The same is true of my German States material. I have two pages of faked cancels on German inflation stamps. They're part of philatelic history. But dealers who sell them without noting what they are or probably are should be avoided.

Sometimes, if you really know your collecting interest, you can find something labeled "fake" that isn't.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
04 Oct 2019
04:32:31pm

re: Ethics on forgeries

In a black and white context, I am not sure that ‘intent’ matters. If a stamp is listed as being catalog #123 then consumers have a case for ‘not as described’ (eBay) or misrepresentation (contract law) in most countries.

In some countries the intent matters in terms of the applicable penalty. A differentiation is made between ‘fraudulent misrepresentation’, ‘negligent misrepresentation’ or ‘innocent misrepresentation’ but the misrepresentation laws all fall in favor of the consumer.

Stamp Smarter has a database of over 2000 eBay listing reviews and in the majority of them we contacted the sellers before the listings closed. I used a carefully worded polite message that meekly asked about the listing while making it clear that I might be mistaken since I was working from an image and did not have the stamp in hand. I also mentioned that I was sure the seller was interested in avoiding unhappy buyers, costly returns, or negative feedbacks.

The results were that about 70% of the sellers responded positively. Of course not all agreed but they were professional and polite. Many times we got a reply like ‘gee, I am not sure, these were my grandfathers and I am just selling them as he identified them’. (Note that many of these seller had a track record of making hundreds stamp purchases!)

About 30% of the sellers responded aggressively with name calling and insults. Also note that many instantly blocked us from either making purchases or even messaging them in the future. We also had several attempts at other forms of retribution. This should be kept in mind if anyone attempts to contact sellers.

In my opinion anyone who splits out individual stamps and assigns them a catalog number AND/OR condition is on the hook both legally and ethically.
Don


Edit; Here is a sample of the type of message I would send

"Good Day,
If you have the time, could you take another look at this listing? It may be misidentified as SG 162, the image appears to show a SG 160b. The true SG 162 has a much deeper blue frame color. Of course I am only able to view the image and do not have the stamp in hand. If I am mistaken, then I apologize. I just wanted to give you a heads up to avoid any potential misunderstandings, angry buyers, and/or costly returns."



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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
04 Oct 2019
05:13:50pm

re: Ethics on forgeries

Your message to buyers is similar to what I send them. However, I like yours better.

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