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General Philatelic/Newcomer Cnr : GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

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gerom
30 Aug 2019
01:46:13am
In Socialist Romania (before 1989) the CTO stamps were sold to collectors at a very low price.
I saw in the Germany auction list (Scott#3515,3521,3600) that they have a partial cancel indicating the day and month of the issue date and the same PO.
I guess it was initially a block of 4.
What is the category of these stamps?
1. I don't think they are officially sold (Michel's catalog doesn't mention them?)
2. Are they being sold for philatelic events?
3. Do the post office employees stamp them illegally at the request of the collectors? In this case what is the economic logic? Is the quote of these stamps higher or equal than the MNH quota?
I have a few german stamps MNH with a first day cancel.
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gerom
30 Aug 2019
01:49:39am
re: GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

I am sorry.The stamp is not MNH ,the stamp have original gum.

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okstamps
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30 Aug 2019
10:27:47pm
re: GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

My understand is that a number of European countries have been selling their stamps with cancels to collectors. The full non-hinged gum is present on the back of the stamp. The sale price set by the postal office is apparently the same as the postage face value of the stamp.

Several years ago I purchased a collection of stamps from Europe for a particular western European country that were advertised as used. When I received the collection, I was surprised to find that all were CTO (canceled-to-order) stamps, with full non-hinged gum on the back. Apparently many European collectors desire the nice clean and crisp look of mint stamps for their used collection and not the somewhat tattered appearance of used stamps that see postal duty.

The stamps from Germany and Switzerland appear most often in this condition in the collections or accumulations that I have purchased.

I remember Linn's posting an article about this a few years ago.

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HockeyNut
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22 Apr 2020
09:53:45am
re: GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

He Gerom,

There are 2 stamps with the same picture (10 Pfg and 25 Pfg)
They are from 1956 Minr 136 and 137. (BERLIN section)

It handles about "Die Bundesrat in Berlin"

The Federal Council (abbreviation BR) is a constitutional body of the Federal Republic of Germany. Through the Federal Council, the federal states are involved in federal legislation and administration as well as in European Union affairs. Each country is represented in the Federal Council by members of its state government. In this way, the interests of the countries are taken into account in the political decision-making process of the state as a whole.

The Federal Council is an expression of federalism and continues a German constitutional tradition. Because he is involved in the legislation, some researchers regard him as a kind of second chamber or state chamber next to the Bundestag. Others see the Federal Council as a body of its own. In any case, they do not consider it to be a parliament or a chamber of parliament, as the members have no mandate of their own. If the government changes in a federal state, for example after a state election, the state sends new members to the federal council accordingly.

The importance of the Federal Council in the political system depends on the one hand on power constellations. The parties that form a coalition in the Bundestag and represent the federal government do not always have a majority in the Bundesrat. In this way, additional parties must be won for a majority of the Federal Council. In addition, more or less laws have had to be approved in history. In the first decades, the proportion of these laws rose sharply, and with it the importance of a majority in the Federal Council. In 2006 and thereafter, so-called federalism reforms attempted to reduce the number of laws requiring approval.

And this is a picture of the official FDC :

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gerom
22 Apr 2020
02:23:20pm
re: GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

Thank you HockeyNut for this summary of the organization of the German federal state.
I am curious how the Chancellor of Germany and the federal government manage to implement the executive / administrative measures in all the countries of the federation.
I think this is the role of the Bundesrat (made up of, what I understood, from the members of local governments)
I have both stamps in the serie with original gumm and still cancelled. In Germany is it a practice to apply a first day cancel on MNH stamps?
I don’t have yet the two stamps (Michel # 129,130) with “Deutscher Bundestag in Berlin"

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jmh67
23 Apr 2020
01:46:02am
re: GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

A very simplified explanation of the implementation of country-wide laws in Germany: Bundestag and Bundesrat have to agree upon them, otherwise they won't come into force. If there are differences of opinion between the two chambers, a mediation board will attempt to reconcile them. Laws of the federal states must not contradict federal law.

As for the cancellations, at least to give a rough idea: Not all first day cancels are CTOs or favor cancels, and vice versa. Many are, though. For many years, the German postal administrations have produced CTOs with first day (often topical) cancels. Also, many collectors have asked (and ask) for favor cancels at the post office counters. The stamp shown above by George (gerom) is apparently an example of that practice. On the other hand, nothing (except for some sales restrictions in the former GDR) prevents the postal employees to sell new stamps to the general public for immediate use on the first day of issue, hence "true" first day use of stamps is not exactly rare, either.

There are also CTOs (printed or applied by hand) with other dates than the day of issue. Sometimes local postmarks were borrowed for that purpose, in particular in the GDR. Likewise, favor cancels are also asked for after the day of issue, in particular when a special postmark is used.

The printed postmarks can often be recognized by their appearance, mostly because the date lines are very neat, and the impressions are very even. They used to be applied in typography, but are nowadays also lithographed.

At least within Germany, CTOs of new issues are sold at face value.

-jmh


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gerom
23 Apr 2020
06:00:18am
re: GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

Thanks jmh67 for the explanations.
I checked a recently purchased lot of used German stamps.
Many of them have cancellations with the date of issue (printed postmarks) and which have gum:
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Michel also has quotes for these types of cancels:

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But for recent stamps, only postal cancellations are quoted:

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How do German stamp collectors rate these types of cancellations (the face value is pfennig/mark)?
George

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jmh67
23 Apr 2020
09:38:19am
re: GERMAN CTO STAMPS=FIRST DAY CANCEL?

How CTOs are valued in comparison to postally used stamps is IMHO mainly a matter of personal preference. Some of the more recent commemoratives, however, are difficult to find postally used, while CTOs can be readily ordered. This should at least give a vague idea.

The stamps with Frankfurt "ez" postmarks shown above look indeed like they are printed CTOs. The Hamburg cancel is a handstamp from a local post office, it may be a favor cancel. Still, I'd prefer it over a printed one.


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