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General Philatelic/Identify This? : saudi arabia overprints

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capetown
11 Aug 2019
12:23:02am
Here's a headscratcher. Have been trying to I.D. these saudi arabian overprints. Maybe someone can help me...capetown
ps...catalog says many are counterfeits...not very helpful!

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SForgCa
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11 Aug 2019
08:31:30am
re: saudi arabia overprints

A major minefield
These are generally in the 1925 period and include issues of Hejaz, Jeddah and Nejd
The ones with the locomotive are probably Hejaz Railway tax stamps, 3 line overprints are Jeddah provisionals.
Many of these were issued in limited quantities from a few hundred to a few thousands
Genuines can command prices in the $100-$2000 range
So probably all VERY doubtful - not only the overprint but the base stamp is also often a forgery.

Even a cursory comparison of the first 2 clearly shows the blue overprint is not even close to being the same
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Sometimes a fake is just a fake regardless of how you "look" at it


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Harvey
11 Aug 2019
10:27:26am
re: saudi arabia overprints

Why do we assume everything is a fake - maybe once in a while we get lucky!

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capetown
11 Aug 2019
12:05:59pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

thanks for your responses...too bad but I have to assume they are fakes.
best wishes, capetown

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musicman
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APS #213005
11 Aug 2019
03:38:10pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

Harvey,

All in how each member looks at things, I believe....

...in the world around us, we accept "innocent until proven guilty" -

so I tend to follow that logic in my stamp collecting.

Genuine until proven fake.

Mind you, I DO make it a point to seek out whether that be the case or not!


Others tend to be more cynical, but to each his own.


Happy

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Harvey
11 Aug 2019
04:44:26pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

We all live in hope, how many of us have checked our copy of Canada #24 hoping that it's actually on laid paper? There's still copies of #32 out there in collections that haven't been discovered yet since at least a full sheet must have been printed. I would never buy a lottery ticket, but if someone offered me a group of unchecked 2 cent green large Queens I would jump at the chance. We all hope for that treasure! So don't automatically write off everything as a fake (unless it's obvious), let the person have a bit of hope. After all the third copy of Canada #32 was found in a $60 lot of "stuff" and a copy of the rare unissued Audrey Hepburn stamp was found in a lot of German kiloware! As Musicman says "assume genuine until proven false". It's hard to say that those overprints are fake until you at least have a good look at them.

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musicman
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APS #213005
11 Aug 2019
05:06:10pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

Quote:

"There's still copies of #32 out there in collections that haven't been discovered yet since at least a full sheet must have been printed"




That's assuming any other copies survived!

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nigelc
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11 Aug 2019
05:16:45pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

There are many stamps that I would assume were forgeries or reprints until I could find out how to distinguish them.

This would include many Italian states stamps, quite a few from the German states and many others.

The key is to find tests that allow you to be sure about the identification.

For example, my own favourite area of Crete is full of forgeries, especially of the British and Russian administration stamps and those from the Revolutionary Assembly.

However, I am now confident about distinguishing genuine examples from forgeries for most of these stamps.

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Harvey
11 Aug 2019
05:56:57pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

I know I was a bit over the top, but I'll still check any Canadian 2 cent large queens! As far as overprints go I collect Poland and assume that any early overprints are fakes since most of them are. But if you have enough of them there might be the real deal in there somewhere! Miracles do happen occasionally, even though not very often!

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
11 Aug 2019
09:03:57pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

When the stamp catalogues state that "counterfeits abound", or "most of the stamp being offered in the marketplace are forgeries", that means almost all the stamps you'll run across of that type are not genuine. The obvious stamps are considered to be bogus until proven genuine.

Harvey, yes, once in a while one gets lucky.

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
11 Aug 2019
11:07:39pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

here is a reference to an old post: https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=20366#149538

rrr....
PS: It has been a few months since I have added anything of value in this collection. Bidding has been active and prices too high for my taste, so I let it slip and went to another challenge....CILICIA. Anyone collecting Cilicia? (I will repost with its own heading)

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Harvey
12 Aug 2019
06:51:54pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

I still have a question - why are there so many fakes out there? Were they done to make a shed load of money? My stamp dealer charges minimal money for early Poland overprints, I doubt if he paid a lot for them and I know I'm not. Does that mean there was an original buyer somewhere that paid big bucks? Or did someone just fake them for fun? The Poland fakes were done a long time ago, so the reason really does escape me. Or were they done for postal purposes, i.e. to be used? The stamp community is crawling with them so there really has to be a reason. I'm the same person who had the inverted overprint for Romania RA2 and I've had that for a long time and probably bought it with a lot of cheap stamps! The whole thing would make more sense if we bought these things for big money. I'm sure there are lots of newer fakes on E-Bay for large amounts, but that doesn't explain the fakes that have been around for about a hundred years! WHO BENEFITED FROM THE EARLY ONES?

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
12 Aug 2019
09:32:49pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

Outside of the counterfeits that people made to defraud a government, many forgeries and fakes (sometimes called un-official reprints) have come into the philatelic market from pretty much the very beginning of the hobby.

The two principle types of forgeries are these (this is my opinion):

1 - Fakes and forgeries of valuable stamps made to trick collectors into thinking that they are buying a rare stamp. We see this all the time on philatelic web site where rare stamps are sold at extremely low prices, as the scamming seller states, "to give the collector a bargain". Of course it is all about stealing the collector's money.

2 - At one point, stamp collecting became very popular. As more and more people came into the hobby, it became obvious that dealers did not have ample stock to supply collector's needs. This was especially so with the desire of collectors to fill spaces in their stamp albums. Thus developed what is known as the "packet trade". Fakes, forgeries, or whatever you want to call them were created by different people to meet that need. The fake stamps were included in packets that dealers sent out to collectors. This could be as introductory packets for sending in a nickle along with a matchbook cover, cereal box top, coupon from "Boy's Life" magazine, etc.. They were also sold (at very low prices) on approval to collectors to permit the collectors to fill the spaces in their albums.

Unfortunately, these fakes abound, and more stamps than you might imagine were faked and sold. Some entries in catalogs even state something like "9 out of 10 stamps in the marketplace from this set are fake"). Older collections are usually ripe with fakes. Take heed when you see a collection offered as being from an "old" album, or that someone is selling their grandfather's, uncle's, etc. old collection. That doesn't mean that it is full of valuable stamps.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
18 Aug 2019
11:46:16pm
re: saudi arabia overprints

" .... Older collections are usually ripe with fakes...."

Two thoughts to add.
First a hundred years ago creating a minimal value stamp, or fake stamp, could put food on the family table. People who worked hard seldom made more than ten dollars a week.
( Henry Ford created somewhat of a scandal in 1914 when he raised his employee's salaries to $5.00 a day, --BTW, a 10 hour day I believe, -- which doubled their salaries)
So adding an overprint that made a nickel stamp sell for a quarter was worthwhile.
Plus, Collectors in general, were essentially naive and under equipped to examine the stamps the way we can today.
For specialists and advanced collectors Infrared and Ultra-violet lights are a way of life, and electron microscopes a common tool. Even here at SoR our powerful computers can enlarge the corner of a suspect stamp far beyond the dreams of collectors and dealers even up to the late 1900s.
So it is quite possible that fakes are being detected at a greater rate and information is distributed around the globe in nanoseconds.
I have a 20x jeweler's style microscope that has become little more than a artifact of early Machin collecting. Thirty years ago I'd never go to a Stamp Show or visit a dealer without it in my pocket.

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