Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
As promised, something to tease the mind.
I received a few parcels of Philatelic books, and to protect the stamps from the heavy fisted Post Office, The sender got the Post Office, to stamp all the stamps with the postage date, and not to heavily.
Then the stamps were placed in a see through plastic envelope, similar to ones you see on courier deliveries to shops etc, and this was stuck to the parcel. The stamps were visible with their postmarks, as required by law.
Now theses stamps have been postally used for all intents and purposes, they have been postmarked with the day of posting.
But, they have never been adhered to the packet or carton.
Are they CTO, or are they postally used.
The Post Office apparently does permit persons to do this to protect the stamps for collectors.
They are not first day of issue, technically they have been postally used, but they still retain their original gum.
So what category do they fit into?
Regards
Horamakhet.
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Hi Horamakhet
That's a tricky question; I assume that depends on the cancellation; if they were stamped with the easily recognisable CTO cancellation then it's a CTO whether if they were went by the mail you described or not.
CTO (Courtesy of the internet)
Commercially used (Courtesy of the internet)
If the stamps have the proper postal service cancellation and sent in an envelope via normal mail; I'll assume that it is commercially used.
Rob
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'
Unique & unusual usages should not be described with well-defined, well-understood terms that only partly apply.
More to the point, the description you use (as for an auction lot) should signal that something is unusual about the lot.
To take a quick shot: "Canceled, then bagged, then posted; used NH OG" to start, followed by the detailed textual narrative description.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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In this circumstance, soak the gum off, and, to all intents and purposes, they're postally used
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Confused I am. Catagory? 
A collectors personal preference is up to them. One mans trash is another mans treasure.
I collect FDC's, there is always descriptive text on the reverse that gives historical fact and/or information of the issue, this I like.
I collect CTO with full Gum, as full sets.
I do not collect postal used, the reason being, for me, most postal used post 2000 issues(when one finds them IN SETS) for me are not cancelled very well(personal preference). And also something else here in Australia, the amount of postage I receive that has NO cancel at all is humungus. So that means another category of Philately, no cancel, no gum, postal usage - used ?
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Hi to all,
It is an interesting subject, but as far as I am aware, only specialised catalogues list CTO, and then they are postally used.
Philately is a hobby full of surprises, and the parementers of collecting are ever changing.
Then we have countries in Europe and the Middle East who print many new stamps every year just to capture the collector market, and unfortunately, now Australia and the USA are in that market.
This is one of the reasons that with Australian stamps, unless it is early decimals, I tend to avoid collecting Australian Decimal stamps.
However, every now and then even the Post Office makes a mistake and a decimal error does creep through.
At times I just like to sit in my library and look at and admire what I have been able to collect.
To me Philately is about the chase to find really good MNH stamps(thanks Rob), and with all the advice from everyone on this forum, hopefully I am building up collection that I will pass onto my children.
Regards
Horamakhet
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I thought that my children and grandkids would be interested. Started collecting at 9yrs, now 62 yrs. But NO, none are interested, not even a little bit. Such Is Life
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In the era of technology, such hobbies take 2nd place; but not all is lost, there are still many young people out there that will pick up from where we left off.
Rob
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Horamakhet,
One could, as you are determined to do, shoe horn FDCs into CTOs, but I wouldn't, never in a million years. Not that you're not technically correct, some times, but that you've just taken a perfectly good definition and made it a mash.
In order to do what you propose, you must, as you have already noted, segregate traditional FDCs (as FDC collectors define them) from postally used FDCs. Need an asterisk here.
But if we define postally used only as travelling through the mails, what does one do with postage due stamps applied at the PO, or regular stamps applied on a dues statement. They never travelled through the mail, but served a postal function, just like the stamp that paid the first class rate necessary to acquire the FDC cxl.
Were I the moderator, I wouldn't have taken your post down (but it's not my site), but I think you doing harm to our understanding of both CTOs and FDCs by insisting on your definition, which, on its face, doesn't help us at all.
David
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Hi amsd
I am not insisting on anything.
I gave my opinion, and asked for everyone else's opinion
I respect all opinions, as I have tried to say, it is an interesting area of collecting.
I am sorry that my quotes may have confused you.
I never said that everyone had to accept my thoughts, and that I respect all other opinions.
Your are entitled to your opinion, and I totally respect it.
Everyone has a different opinion.
My post, was due for the reasons stated, nothing more, nothing less
Regards
Horamakhet
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A FDC of mine, stamp can be soaked off and sold or kept as Very Fine Used.
No Gum, CTO IT IS NOT
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And just for the hell of it, Postaly used.
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Hi
To me, they are genuine first day covers, because they are addressed to someone and postally used, but everyone has a different idea on first day covers which I respect
Horamakhet
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I think the underlying similarity is that many CTOs and FDCs could be perceived as being ‘profit centers’. As ‘commercial collectables’ they often have a poor reputation.
My personal opinion on these is a bit ambivalent. On the one hand I would not want to be pretentious and tell another person what they should collect. On the other hand, I think that a case could be made for arguing that the overzealous marketing of some of this material has truly harmed the hobby.
There has always been debate surrounding the meaning of used/postally used/mint/unused; so I am unsure that this makes a good criteria for this thread. For example, what are precancels with gum? If I go into the post office, buy a block of stamps, and ask the clerk to cancel them are they CTOs? What happens if I then soak the gum off of them, does that change them to ‘used’ (since no one would ever be able to tell that they had not been in the mail stream)? What about Postmaster Provisionals? Are these stamps mint, unused, or used?
I do not see the value in going down the used/postally used/mint/unused rabbit hole in the context of this thread.
Don
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Hi Don
Nice pair of presidents.
I think, but please correct me, but in the USA, the issue of pre-cancels and used pre-cancels is a specialist area?
Horamakhet
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The Postmaster Provisionals shown were signed by the postmaster before selling them; they were sold this way. The stamps above are mint/unused.
The same goes for an unaddressed FDC, a person could easily type an address on an unaddressed one and no one could tell if it did or did not travel through the mail stream.
Ditto for my previous example about a 'hand back' cancelled block of stamps which is then soaked.
So determining if something actually travelled through the mail stream is impossible for many items. So my point is that the criteria of 'used/unused/mint' or 'postal used' is ephemeral. With something so fleeting, I see no value in trying to use this criteria in the discussion.
Don
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I agree, Don.
On the other hand, for many items, it is quite possible to establish that they traversed "the mails", as they leave a trail, through their cancellations, showing the facilities and conveyances they encountered in their journeys. Sometimes, that trail is supremely interesting, and reveals important aspects of the organization of systems for distributing the mails. Sometimes, the 'trail' as evidenced on individual or groups of items is the only way to establish how those systems were organized.
But, I think you make a good point. For those items that do not 'leave a trail' as I describe, it's fruitless to attempt to make those distinctions because the result is strictly a presumption, and nothing more than that. In other words, the item is telling you nothing about the trail, or that there even was a trail.
-Paul
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I‘m a specialised collector, and for a CTO to be a CTO it would need to be stamped and not go through the mail system (also known as “cancelled per favour”), if it does then it becomes commercial mail.
Also, if you have a pre-stamped FDC and it has no cancellation, the FDC can be used many years later by adding extra stamps to make up for the new postage and it can be posted as commercially used.
If a collector removes a stamp from a cover that has a CTO cancellation, regardless about the lack of gum, it is still a CTO.
If a FDC is stamped at the post office and sent by mail it is postally used, if kept and placed in a collection it is a CTO.
It all boils down to one's choice of definition.
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Hi to all,
Well it has been an interesting diversion, and I appreciate all the comments.
It proves how diverse and rich the world of philately is, and how many sub areas that people collect.
Regards and thanks to all for sharing your ideas
Horamakhet
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A number of dealers do the plastic bag trick as a favour to collectors (where it is permissable in the regulations).
The postmarks used are usually the counter date stamps from the post office, as used to cancel registered mail, oversized items and other special services.
These are genuinely postally used despite the gum. The only drawback is that they are usually miniature sheets, or high value commemoratives out of period, purchased by the dealer at a discount so are definitely philatelically contrived.
Some collectors are anti this - however some modern stamps are impossible ( and I mean impossible not difficult ), to acquire used in any other way, as they are NEVER used in the course of postal business, and hence never turn up either in the post or in "genuine" Kiloware. I prefer stamps used in the course of ordinary postal business but where these, in practical terms do not exist, then I am happy to collect the contrived ones. They are still preferable to CTO ( but I do realise that Australian CTO are a special case, as they are not dumped "dealer fodder" ).
Malcolm
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"some modern stamps are impossible ( and I mean impossible not difficult ), to acquire used in any other way, as they are NEVER used in the course of postal business"
Well, you could always 'roll your own'... (Is that cheating?) My immediate family know that they are to be careful opening any full cover or parcel they receive from me, and are to carefully save the 'cut square' (with full cancellation, of course) until they see me the next time. I'm frequently sending them books that they 'should' read. That probably annoys them...
For awhile, I was using the high-value Columbus minisheets that came out in 1993 on all my heavy mailings.
-Paul
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Paul ( Pigdoc)
That was precisely my point. Presumably you were using these, or at least some of them out of period, and anyway you were specifically choosing them to use on mailing rather than using the correct ( smallest or random number of stamps in correct period) to make up the value. That makes the use ( if you want to be really pedantic ) contrived, especially as a noteable (?) philatelist had either sent ( in your case ) or received them.
Now I would be the first to admit that I personally find this scenario perfectly legitimate- however there are many who do not, and should you ever wish to exhibit you would be strongly advised not to use such material.
Malcolm
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'
The achronistic (out-of-period) use of older postage discredits the hobby, by documenting some of the folly, and all of the decline of our little past-time.
(For obvious reasons, I happily exempt all manner of event & thematic covers.)
I segregate the achronistic postage that arrives on my incoming mail in its own stock book ... because I lack the courage to shred the lot.
And, yes, I use achronistic postage on my outbound mail ... because everyone else seems to like it!
Q/ What is a curmudgeon to do?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Hi IkeyPikey
You are not the only one who uses anchronistic stamps on your mail
When ever I purchase stamps from various sources and have them mailed to me, the stamps are sometimes years out of date, and sometimes only one or two stamps are postmarked.
Interesting comment.
Horamakhet
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Hi all,
As promised, something to tease the mind.
I received a few parcels of Philatelic books, and to protect the stamps from the heavy fisted Post Office, The sender got the Post Office, to stamp all the stamps with the postage date, and not to heavily.
Then the stamps were placed in a see through plastic envelope, similar to ones you see on courier deliveries to shops etc, and this was stuck to the parcel. The stamps were visible with their postmarks, as required by law.
Now theses stamps have been postally used for all intents and purposes, they have been postmarked with the day of posting.
But, they have never been adhered to the packet or carton.
Are they CTO, or are they postally used.
The Post Office apparently does permit persons to do this to protect the stamps for collectors.
They are not first day of issue, technically they have been postally used, but they still retain their original gum.
So what category do they fit into?
Regards
Horamakhet.
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Hi Horamakhet
That's a tricky question; I assume that depends on the cancellation; if they were stamped with the easily recognisable CTO cancellation then it's a CTO whether if they were went by the mail you described or not.
CTO (Courtesy of the internet)
Commercially used (Courtesy of the internet)
If the stamps have the proper postal service cancellation and sent in an envelope via normal mail; I'll assume that it is commercially used.
Rob
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
'
Unique & unusual usages should not be described with well-defined, well-understood terms that only partly apply.
More to the point, the description you use (as for an auction lot) should signal that something is unusual about the lot.
To take a quick shot: "Canceled, then bagged, then posted; used NH OG" to start, followed by the detailed textual narrative description.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
In this circumstance, soak the gum off, and, to all intents and purposes, they're postally used
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11:41:07pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Confused I am. Catagory?
A collectors personal preference is up to them. One mans trash is another mans treasure.
I collect FDC's, there is always descriptive text on the reverse that gives historical fact and/or information of the issue, this I like.
I collect CTO with full Gum, as full sets.
I do not collect postal used, the reason being, for me, most postal used post 2000 issues(when one finds them IN SETS) for me are not cancelled very well(personal preference). And also something else here in Australia, the amount of postage I receive that has NO cancel at all is humungus. So that means another category of Philately, no cancel, no gum, postal usage - used ?
Login to Like
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Hi to all,
It is an interesting subject, but as far as I am aware, only specialised catalogues list CTO, and then they are postally used.
Philately is a hobby full of surprises, and the parementers of collecting are ever changing.
Then we have countries in Europe and the Middle East who print many new stamps every year just to capture the collector market, and unfortunately, now Australia and the USA are in that market.
This is one of the reasons that with Australian stamps, unless it is early decimals, I tend to avoid collecting Australian Decimal stamps.
However, every now and then even the Post Office makes a mistake and a decimal error does creep through.
At times I just like to sit in my library and look at and admire what I have been able to collect.
To me Philately is about the chase to find really good MNH stamps(thanks Rob), and with all the advice from everyone on this forum, hopefully I am building up collection that I will pass onto my children.
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
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11:18:02pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
I thought that my children and grandkids would be interested. Started collecting at 9yrs, now 62 yrs. But NO, none are interested, not even a little bit. Such Is Life
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
In the era of technology, such hobbies take 2nd place; but not all is lost, there are still many young people out there that will pick up from where we left off.
Rob
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Horamakhet,
One could, as you are determined to do, shoe horn FDCs into CTOs, but I wouldn't, never in a million years. Not that you're not technically correct, some times, but that you've just taken a perfectly good definition and made it a mash.
In order to do what you propose, you must, as you have already noted, segregate traditional FDCs (as FDC collectors define them) from postally used FDCs. Need an asterisk here.
But if we define postally used only as travelling through the mails, what does one do with postage due stamps applied at the PO, or regular stamps applied on a dues statement. They never travelled through the mail, but served a postal function, just like the stamp that paid the first class rate necessary to acquire the FDC cxl.
Were I the moderator, I wouldn't have taken your post down (but it's not my site), but I think you doing harm to our understanding of both CTOs and FDCs by insisting on your definition, which, on its face, doesn't help us at all.
David
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Hi amsd
I am not insisting on anything.
I gave my opinion, and asked for everyone else's opinion
I respect all opinions, as I have tried to say, it is an interesting area of collecting.
I am sorry that my quotes may have confused you.
I never said that everyone had to accept my thoughts, and that I respect all other opinions.
Your are entitled to your opinion, and I totally respect it.
Everyone has a different opinion.
My post, was due for the reasons stated, nothing more, nothing less
Regards
Horamakhet
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02:32:52am
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
A FDC of mine, stamp can be soaked off and sold or kept as Very Fine Used.
No Gum, CTO IT IS NOT
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02:49:48am
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
And just for the hell of it, Postaly used.
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Hi
To me, they are genuine first day covers, because they are addressed to someone and postally used, but everyone has a different idea on first day covers which I respect
Horamakhet
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
I think the underlying similarity is that many CTOs and FDCs could be perceived as being ‘profit centers’. As ‘commercial collectables’ they often have a poor reputation.
My personal opinion on these is a bit ambivalent. On the one hand I would not want to be pretentious and tell another person what they should collect. On the other hand, I think that a case could be made for arguing that the overzealous marketing of some of this material has truly harmed the hobby.
There has always been debate surrounding the meaning of used/postally used/mint/unused; so I am unsure that this makes a good criteria for this thread. For example, what are precancels with gum? If I go into the post office, buy a block of stamps, and ask the clerk to cancel them are they CTOs? What happens if I then soak the gum off of them, does that change them to ‘used’ (since no one would ever be able to tell that they had not been in the mail stream)? What about Postmaster Provisionals? Are these stamps mint, unused, or used?
I do not see the value in going down the used/postally used/mint/unused rabbit hole in the context of this thread.
Don
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Hi Don
Nice pair of presidents.
I think, but please correct me, but in the USA, the issue of pre-cancels and used pre-cancels is a specialist area?
Horamakhet
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
The Postmaster Provisionals shown were signed by the postmaster before selling them; they were sold this way. The stamps above are mint/unused.
The same goes for an unaddressed FDC, a person could easily type an address on an unaddressed one and no one could tell if it did or did not travel through the mail stream.
Ditto for my previous example about a 'hand back' cancelled block of stamps which is then soaked.
So determining if something actually travelled through the mail stream is impossible for many items. So my point is that the criteria of 'used/unused/mint' or 'postal used' is ephemeral. With something so fleeting, I see no value in trying to use this criteria in the discussion.
Don
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08:11:30pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
I agree, Don.
On the other hand, for many items, it is quite possible to establish that they traversed "the mails", as they leave a trail, through their cancellations, showing the facilities and conveyances they encountered in their journeys. Sometimes, that trail is supremely interesting, and reveals important aspects of the organization of systems for distributing the mails. Sometimes, the 'trail' as evidenced on individual or groups of items is the only way to establish how those systems were organized.
But, I think you make a good point. For those items that do not 'leave a trail' as I describe, it's fruitless to attempt to make those distinctions because the result is strictly a presumption, and nothing more than that. In other words, the item is telling you nothing about the trail, or that there even was a trail.
-Paul
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
I‘m a specialised collector, and for a CTO to be a CTO it would need to be stamped and not go through the mail system (also known as “cancelled per favour”), if it does then it becomes commercial mail.
Also, if you have a pre-stamped FDC and it has no cancellation, the FDC can be used many years later by adding extra stamps to make up for the new postage and it can be posted as commercially used.
If a collector removes a stamp from a cover that has a CTO cancellation, regardless about the lack of gum, it is still a CTO.
If a FDC is stamped at the post office and sent by mail it is postally used, if kept and placed in a collection it is a CTO.
It all boils down to one's choice of definition.
Login to Like
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Hi to all,
Well it has been an interesting diversion, and I appreciate all the comments.
It proves how diverse and rich the world of philately is, and how many sub areas that people collect.
Regards and thanks to all for sharing your ideas
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
06:39:24am
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
A number of dealers do the plastic bag trick as a favour to collectors (where it is permissable in the regulations).
The postmarks used are usually the counter date stamps from the post office, as used to cancel registered mail, oversized items and other special services.
These are genuinely postally used despite the gum. The only drawback is that they are usually miniature sheets, or high value commemoratives out of period, purchased by the dealer at a discount so are definitely philatelically contrived.
Some collectors are anti this - however some modern stamps are impossible ( and I mean impossible not difficult ), to acquire used in any other way, as they are NEVER used in the course of postal business, and hence never turn up either in the post or in "genuine" Kiloware. I prefer stamps used in the course of ordinary postal business but where these, in practical terms do not exist, then I am happy to collect the contrived ones. They are still preferable to CTO ( but I do realise that Australian CTO are a special case, as they are not dumped "dealer fodder" ).
Malcolm
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01:44:59pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
"some modern stamps are impossible ( and I mean impossible not difficult ), to acquire used in any other way, as they are NEVER used in the course of postal business"
Well, you could always 'roll your own'... (Is that cheating?) My immediate family know that they are to be careful opening any full cover or parcel they receive from me, and are to carefully save the 'cut square' (with full cancellation, of course) until they see me the next time. I'm frequently sending them books that they 'should' read. That probably annoys them...
For awhile, I was using the high-value Columbus minisheets that came out in 1993 on all my heavy mailings.
-Paul
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11:58:14am
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Paul ( Pigdoc)
That was precisely my point. Presumably you were using these, or at least some of them out of period, and anyway you were specifically choosing them to use on mailing rather than using the correct ( smallest or random number of stamps in correct period) to make up the value. That makes the use ( if you want to be really pedantic ) contrived, especially as a noteable (?) philatelist had either sent ( in your case ) or received them.
Now I would be the first to admit that I personally find this scenario perfectly legitimate- however there are many who do not, and should you ever wish to exhibit you would be strongly advised not to use such material.
Malcolm
Login to Like
this post
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
'
The achronistic (out-of-period) use of older postage discredits the hobby, by documenting some of the folly, and all of the decline of our little past-time.
(For obvious reasons, I happily exempt all manner of event & thematic covers.)
I segregate the achronistic postage that arrives on my incoming mail in its own stock book ... because I lack the courage to shred the lot.
And, yes, I use achronistic postage on my outbound mail ... because everyone else seems to like it!
Q/ What is a curmudgeon to do?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
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re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED PART TWO
Hi IkeyPikey
You are not the only one who uses anchronistic stamps on your mail
When ever I purchase stamps from various sources and have them mailed to me, the stamps are sometimes years out of date, and sometimes only one or two stamps are postmarked.
Interesting comment.
Horamakhet
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