Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Precancels (like shown) w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH? Thank you.
Used.
Same if you walked into a PO, purchased a block of stamps, asked them to cancel them for you. Once cancelled, they are considered used even if they happen to have gum.
Don
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Here is an earlier post, images missing.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=2595
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And here is an article from Linn's to further amplify the discussion.https://www.linns.com/news/postal-updates-page/stamp-collecting-basics/2006/september/collecting-used-postage-stamps-isn-t-quite-as-simple-as-it-might.html
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As a collector of both US Airmail and Texas Precancels; all I can say is ..... WOW!
David
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FYI. I put a different Block of 6 on SOR, Ebay, and Hipstamp. The Hipstamp Block of 6 Sold immediately and the Ebay Block of 6 had 6 Bids within a couple of hrs. Never had that happen before.
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12:57:00am
RE: the Linn's article aforementioned;
" .... More recently, some postal administrations
have been offering new-issue stamps that are canceled
without having done postal duty but that are not sold
at a discount from face value.
Such stamps are not CTOs even though they did not do
postal duty, because they are not sold at a discount
from face value. ..."
For what it is worth, I completely disagree.
While the vast amount of CTOs are sold in bulk with
their cancel in place from the printing process,
there were some sets, CTO sets, that contained a
restricted or limited issue value which was sold
at post offices, or awarded, in Eastern Europe,
usually to favored party members. In fact, I think
that there were sets sold at those postal facilities
to local collectors at the "MSRP" (So to speak.)
at the government authored stamp clubs. The bulk
issues became the packet fillers, the limited issue
stamps of the set became, despite their CTO cancel,
the key to the set. This practice was not limited
to CTOs. A stamp, with its imprinted perfect quarter
circle cancel, often referred to as "Jam Jar Labels,"
did not have to be sold at a discount to win the
"CTO Award."
Also;
" ... Stamps that were not issued or not valid for payment
of postage sometimes receive a cancellation when a
cooperative postal clerk applies the cancel as a favor.
Such stamps are considered to be favor-canceled rather
than used ...."
Again, something has been left out.
Many dealers, especially in my experience, having standing
orders for properly cancelled new issues, bought sheets
of mint stamps and had the postal clerk apply a neat cancel
to each block of four, square on, so those standing orders
could be filled. These were valid stamps, usually current
issues, and I do not see how cancellations applied as a favor,
or as a part of the authorized day's work can fit into any
other category than "Favor Cancels." while the dealer
had the to pay full post office price for these Favor
Cancelled stamps as the mint, never hinged stamps, he then
had to sell them at the same or possibly a higher price as
those MNH stamps.
During the 1960s and 70s, I had been purchasing mostly UK
approvals from a really nice dealer operating from Wolver-
hampton and one day I noticed that quite a few had not only
perfect quadrennial cancels, but when I aligned a set that
had been a block, the stamps cancels were first cousins.
Also the gum was on the obverse. So this gentleman, whose
name escapes my faltering memory was creating Favor Cancels
and selling them as used. I began to choose stamps not likely
to be FC's, from his approval pages.
In 1987 or 1988, I noticed that Mystic was selling sets of
mint and sets of used $0.22 Presidential mini-sheets at what
seemed to be almost the same price. At the time I had
acquired more than half of the 35 or so stamps in the set
and wanted to set up the album pages, so I ordered the set
used as advertised. What I received was the entire set all
cancelled at the same Connecticut post office, obviously
Favor Cancelled, not postally used. The clincher was the
pristine gum. So yes, I set up the several pages and over
time replaced the FC's" with what I hope are postaly
canceled issues.
These points may seem minor to some, but the author set out
to enlighten other collectors and provide a comprehensive
guide to the various kinds of cancellations on the market
and to a large degree accomplished his task, but at least
in these two situations did not complete the definitions.
Philately is a large subject and it is difficult to be
completely comprehensive in all respects.
Charlie
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if one reads Charlie's post carefully, we see that he's talking about the difference between used and postally used. A pre-cancelled stamp, FDC, or favor-cancelled stamp are all used, but none are necessarily postally used.
those of us who collect used stamps are really lookiing for postally used.
Note that Scott values East bloc CTOs as the default "used" stamp, with notes that indicate "postally used" stamps sell for higher amounts.
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I find that the CTO or favour cancelled stamps, including FDC's not to have a place in my collection.
I consider them cancelled but not used. They have not really done postal duty as on a letter or package, most FDC's seem to be issued by the Postal Authorities in bulk to dealers.
Where I find such items in kiloware or collections they do not go into my albums.
Mind you I will also not keep "sharpie" cancels despite the fact they have seen postal duty.
Oh the joys of collecting.
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'
Concerning GPU (Genuinely Postally Used), I am stricter than most, because I shun ex-contemporanous use of stamp, eg, US 3c commemoratives used as FVP (Face Value Postage) decades after they were issued.
OTOH, I don't want to give them away, lest the next GPU collector fail to detect this fault.
Sheepshanks has pointed me to a solution: just add a Sharpie cancel!
The best & highest use of most (modern mass-produced) FDCs is to give them to very small children, with an invitation to color on them, hoping that getting a good look at a stamp now & again will lead them down the rabbit hole.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Ikey,
I eschew LKU and other ‘latest use’ designations because I feel they are arbitrary.
What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp that you use? 6 months after release? 10 months? 15 months? Is this cut off subjective...or is there some generally accepted cut off?
Don
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01:48:49pm
" ... What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp ..."
You have raised an excellent question, Don. Ideally that would have to be when a postal agency withdraws a given stamp from service and requires all post offices return their unsold inventory to the central office where they will be carefully destroyed. There are nearly 2 nations and recognised agencies in the United Nations which means accepting that as the standard would lead to chaos. The UPU has a few less members so there would still be more than the usual chaos. If the USPS does call unsold stamps back to the salt mines under Omaha, as of a certain date, they do not enforce it strictly as I have been to many post offices and some barely have the stamps that are in service available, while others (a few) will have a full supply of miscellaneous stamps long after new issues are released for sale to the public.
It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage.
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Here's a block of 35 Benton Harbor, Michigan precancels on my beloved Ben Franklin stamp. I don't remember what I paid for this, but it no doubt came from the Covel collection.
It has perfect gum on the back. Obviously never saw postal usage. I consider it an "unused precancel". That about covers it.
I also own this nice Lexington Concord set. Obviously a collector had these precancelled and kept them intact. Another example of "unused precancel".
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"It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage."
This will be an interesting topic in the future. In my albums I only keep coves that show usage during the stamps original issue period. I regularly come across covers that were mailed by collectors or dealers way after that period. For instance, I passed on a 1903 Ben Franklin cover with a plate block used on it, but in the 1920s, with a dealer corner card.
As so many old stamps are being sold today as discount postage, and I receive them on mail every day, we'll have tons of stamps with dates decades after their issuance. In most cases these are cheap stamps that nobody will be worried about value, but do you want a 1950s commemorative with a 2018 postmark in your collection as that one stamp representing the issue? I fear these stamps will be forever in mixtures.
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re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
Used.
Same if you walked into a PO, purchased a block of stamps, asked them to cancel them for you. Once cancelled, they are considered used even if they happen to have gum.
Don
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this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
Here is an earlier post, images missing.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=2595
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
And here is an article from Linn's to further amplify the discussion.https://www.linns.com/news/postal-updates-page/stamp-collecting-basics/2006/september/collecting-used-postage-stamps-isn-t-quite-as-simple-as-it-might.html
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
As a collector of both US Airmail and Texas Precancels; all I can say is ..... WOW!
David
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this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Apr 2019
12:57:00am
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
RE: the Linn's article aforementioned;
" .... More recently, some postal administrations
have been offering new-issue stamps that are canceled
without having done postal duty but that are not sold
at a discount from face value.
Such stamps are not CTOs even though they did not do
postal duty, because they are not sold at a discount
from face value. ..."
For what it is worth, I completely disagree.
While the vast amount of CTOs are sold in bulk with
their cancel in place from the printing process,
there were some sets, CTO sets, that contained a
restricted or limited issue value which was sold
at post offices, or awarded, in Eastern Europe,
usually to favored party members. In fact, I think
that there were sets sold at those postal facilities
to local collectors at the "MSRP" (So to speak.)
at the government authored stamp clubs. The bulk
issues became the packet fillers, the limited issue
stamps of the set became, despite their CTO cancel,
the key to the set. This practice was not limited
to CTOs. A stamp, with its imprinted perfect quarter
circle cancel, often referred to as "Jam Jar Labels,"
did not have to be sold at a discount to win the
"CTO Award."
Also;
" ... Stamps that were not issued or not valid for payment
of postage sometimes receive a cancellation when a
cooperative postal clerk applies the cancel as a favor.
Such stamps are considered to be favor-canceled rather
than used ...."
Again, something has been left out.
Many dealers, especially in my experience, having standing
orders for properly cancelled new issues, bought sheets
of mint stamps and had the postal clerk apply a neat cancel
to each block of four, square on, so those standing orders
could be filled. These were valid stamps, usually current
issues, and I do not see how cancellations applied as a favor,
or as a part of the authorized day's work can fit into any
other category than "Favor Cancels." while the dealer
had the to pay full post office price for these Favor
Cancelled stamps as the mint, never hinged stamps, he then
had to sell them at the same or possibly a higher price as
those MNH stamps.
During the 1960s and 70s, I had been purchasing mostly UK
approvals from a really nice dealer operating from Wolver-
hampton and one day I noticed that quite a few had not only
perfect quadrennial cancels, but when I aligned a set that
had been a block, the stamps cancels were first cousins.
Also the gum was on the obverse. So this gentleman, whose
name escapes my faltering memory was creating Favor Cancels
and selling them as used. I began to choose stamps not likely
to be FC's, from his approval pages.
In 1987 or 1988, I noticed that Mystic was selling sets of
mint and sets of used $0.22 Presidential mini-sheets at what
seemed to be almost the same price. At the time I had
acquired more than half of the 35 or so stamps in the set
and wanted to set up the album pages, so I ordered the set
used as advertised. What I received was the entire set all
cancelled at the same Connecticut post office, obviously
Favor Cancelled, not postally used. The clincher was the
pristine gum. So yes, I set up the several pages and over
time replaced the FC's" with what I hope are postaly
canceled issues.
These points may seem minor to some, but the author set out
to enlighten other collectors and provide a comprehensive
guide to the various kinds of cancellations on the market
and to a large degree accomplished his task, but at least
in these two situations did not complete the definitions.
Philately is a large subject and it is difficult to be
completely comprehensive in all respects.
Charlie
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
if one reads Charlie's post carefully, we see that he's talking about the difference between used and postally used. A pre-cancelled stamp, FDC, or favor-cancelled stamp are all used, but none are necessarily postally used.
those of us who collect used stamps are really lookiing for postally used.
Note that Scott values East bloc CTOs as the default "used" stamp, with notes that indicate "postally used" stamps sell for higher amounts.
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
I find that the CTO or favour cancelled stamps, including FDC's not to have a place in my collection.
I consider them cancelled but not used. They have not really done postal duty as on a letter or package, most FDC's seem to be issued by the Postal Authorities in bulk to dealers.
Where I find such items in kiloware or collections they do not go into my albums.
Mind you I will also not keep "sharpie" cancels despite the fact they have seen postal duty.
Oh the joys of collecting.
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
'
Concerning GPU (Genuinely Postally Used), I am stricter than most, because I shun ex-contemporanous use of stamp, eg, US 3c commemoratives used as FVP (Face Value Postage) decades after they were issued.
OTOH, I don't want to give them away, lest the next GPU collector fail to detect this fault.
Sheepshanks has pointed me to a solution: just add a Sharpie cancel!
The best & highest use of most (modern mass-produced) FDCs is to give them to very small children, with an invitation to color on them, hoping that getting a good look at a stamp now & again will lead them down the rabbit hole.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
Ikey,
I eschew LKU and other ‘latest use’ designations because I feel they are arbitrary.
What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp that you use? 6 months after release? 10 months? 15 months? Is this cut off subjective...or is there some generally accepted cut off?
Don
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Apr 2019
01:48:49pm
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
" ... What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp ..."
You have raised an excellent question, Don. Ideally that would have to be when a postal agency withdraws a given stamp from service and requires all post offices return their unsold inventory to the central office where they will be carefully destroyed. There are nearly 2 nations and recognised agencies in the United Nations which means accepting that as the standard would lead to chaos. The UPU has a few less members so there would still be more than the usual chaos. If the USPS does call unsold stamps back to the salt mines under Omaha, as of a certain date, they do not enforce it strictly as I have been to many post offices and some barely have the stamps that are in service available, while others (a few) will have a full supply of miscellaneous stamps long after new issues are released for sale to the public.
It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage.
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
Here's a block of 35 Benton Harbor, Michigan precancels on my beloved Ben Franklin stamp. I don't remember what I paid for this, but it no doubt came from the Covel collection.
It has perfect gum on the back. Obviously never saw postal usage. I consider it an "unused precancel". That about covers it.
I also own this nice Lexington Concord set. Obviously a collector had these precancelled and kept them intact. Another example of "unused precancel".
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?
"It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage."
This will be an interesting topic in the future. In my albums I only keep coves that show usage during the stamps original issue period. I regularly come across covers that were mailed by collectors or dealers way after that period. For instance, I passed on a 1903 Ben Franklin cover with a plate block used on it, but in the 1920s, with a dealer corner card.
As so many old stamps are being sold today as discount postage, and I receive them on mail every day, we'll have tons of stamps with dates decades after their issuance. In most cases these are cheap stamps that nobody will be worried about value, but do you want a 1950s commemorative with a 2018 postmark in your collection as that one stamp representing the issue? I fear these stamps will be forever in mixtures.
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