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Europe/Other : Help with ID

 

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bobgggg

Past President Cortlandt Stamp Club

17 Apr 2019
07:39:59pm
Image Not FoundMay be Greek...not sure..any help would be appreciated

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nigelc
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17 Apr 2019
07:42:15pm
re: Help with ID

Hi Bob,

These are forgeries of two of the British Administration in Crete stamps from 1898.

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bobgggg

Past President Cortlandt Stamp Club

17 Apr 2019
07:48:22pm
re: Help with ID

thanks

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nigelc
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17 Apr 2019
07:52:33pm
re: Help with ID

Here are four of the original stamps:

Image Not Found

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

18 Apr 2019
12:23:22am
re: Help with ID

Note, in the genuine stamps, the sun is a complete circle.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
nigelc
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18 Apr 2019
07:23:05am
re: Help with ID

Michael is spot on here. Happy

Here are three more examples:

Image Not Found

From left to right:

1. A genuine stamp (position 1 in the first transfer block).

This has the complete circle just above the large figure 10.

2. A forgery made by the original printers in Athens.

Here the same small circle is incomplete at the bottom.

I wonder if this was done deliberately to mark out these out as reproductions?

3. Another forgery.

This also has the incomplete circle but in addition the colour, paper, perforation and printing don't reflect the original production quality.


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pigdoc

18 Apr 2019
10:54:59am
re: Help with ID

After a few minutes of study, I cannot find any other deviations in the engraving of the forgeries. This would lead me to conclude that they are reprints from the original dies.

From study of other forged issues, it's inconceivable that a forger could reproduce an engraving that perfectly.

Interesting!
-Paul

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

18 Apr 2019
11:23:11am
re: Help with ID

According to Varro Tyler, reprints of this issue do not exist. He states that some of the counterfeits were made by the printers of the original issue, Gundman & Stangel in Athens, but the counterfeits were not printed from the original stone. The counterfeits were sold by Francois Fournier in Geneva.

The genuine stamps are perforated 11.5. It is believed that Fournier also printed the counterfeits, and perforated them 11. Other counterfeits can be found perfed 11.25. The original Athens forgeries are perfed 11.5 as the originals.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
nigelc
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18 Apr 2019
12:53:42pm
re: Help with ID

Michael is correct; these stamps were not reprinted.

Even the first forgeries consistently show the incomplete circle.

The original stamps were printed in sheets of 100 made up of repeated blocks (transfers) of ten stamps.

Any genuine stamp can be identified in terms of its position in a transfer by checking for tiny flaws in the design.

These design flaws do not appear in the forgeries.

For example, here the original stamp at the left shows a characteristic white flaw in the design towards the top right. This was repeated ten times in each sheet of the 10 parades blue.

Image Not Found

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pigdoc

18 Apr 2019
02:29:05pm
re: Help with ID

Oh, I see it now. It's a break in the inner frame line. Don't know how I missed that.
Also looks like the 'crack' extends outwards, involving both the dentition and outer frame line.

Still interesting!
Thanks, nigel!
-Paul

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nigelc
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19 Apr 2019
08:59:33am
re: Help with ID

Hi Paul,

I'm glad you've found this of interest. Happy

Most of the design flaws that I mentioned are quite hard to spot without a reference diagram and there is one position on the transfer of the 10 parades blue that doesn't appear to have any flaws.

Here's another example.

The transfer unit for the 10 parades blue consisted of ten stamps, two across and five down like this:
Image Not Found
and here are three stamps from the bottom row of this transfer:

Image Not Found

The stamp at the left is conventionally identified as position 9 in the transfer and has the same characteristics as the stamp on the right (which is in position 9 in the adjacent transfer block).

The identifying flaw for position 9 is a tiny dot on the bottom of the inside frame line above the greek key pattern:

Image Not Found.

Zooming in further, it's in the middle of this scan: Image Not Found

The middle stamp (position 10) has a more interesting feature as the small circle is missing: Image Not Found

The other values/colours of stamps in this design each have their own transfer characteristics and there are still some details to be worked out.

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pigdoc

19 Apr 2019
11:16:40am
re: Help with ID

Very interesting!

Man, that "tiny dot" on the position 9 stamp is the quintessential "fly speck"!

The Pony Express private issue stamps are really fun and interesting to plate. There are LOTS of major differences between the various positions. Sometimes, I'll surf them on eBay just for the fun and challenge of plating them. Is also a good way to practice rooting out forgeries.

Cool that you're engaged in sorting all those difference out.

Thanks!
-Paul

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Author/Postings
bobgggg

Past President Cortlandt Stamp Club

17 Apr 2019
07:39:59pm

Image Not FoundMay be Greek...not sure..any help would be appreciated

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this post
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nigelc

17 Apr 2019
07:42:15pm

re: Help with ID

Hi Bob,

These are forgeries of two of the British Administration in Crete stamps from 1898.

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this post
bobgggg

Past President Cortlandt Stamp Club

17 Apr 2019
07:48:22pm

re: Help with ID

thanks

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nigelc

17 Apr 2019
07:52:33pm

re: Help with ID

Here are four of the original stamps:

Image Not Found

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
18 Apr 2019
12:23:22am

re: Help with ID

Note, in the genuine stamps, the sun is a complete circle.

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this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
nigelc

18 Apr 2019
07:23:05am

re: Help with ID

Michael is spot on here. Happy

Here are three more examples:

Image Not Found

From left to right:

1. A genuine stamp (position 1 in the first transfer block).

This has the complete circle just above the large figure 10.

2. A forgery made by the original printers in Athens.

Here the same small circle is incomplete at the bottom.

I wonder if this was done deliberately to mark out these out as reproductions?

3. Another forgery.

This also has the incomplete circle but in addition the colour, paper, perforation and printing don't reflect the original production quality.


Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

18 Apr 2019
10:54:59am

re: Help with ID

After a few minutes of study, I cannot find any other deviations in the engraving of the forgeries. This would lead me to conclude that they are reprints from the original dies.

From study of other forged issues, it's inconceivable that a forger could reproduce an engraving that perfectly.

Interesting!
-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
18 Apr 2019
11:23:11am

re: Help with ID

According to Varro Tyler, reprints of this issue do not exist. He states that some of the counterfeits were made by the printers of the original issue, Gundman & Stangel in Athens, but the counterfeits were not printed from the original stone. The counterfeits were sold by Francois Fournier in Geneva.

The genuine stamps are perforated 11.5. It is believed that Fournier also printed the counterfeits, and perforated them 11. Other counterfeits can be found perfed 11.25. The original Athens forgeries are perfed 11.5 as the originals.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
nigelc

18 Apr 2019
12:53:42pm

re: Help with ID

Michael is correct; these stamps were not reprinted.

Even the first forgeries consistently show the incomplete circle.

The original stamps were printed in sheets of 100 made up of repeated blocks (transfers) of ten stamps.

Any genuine stamp can be identified in terms of its position in a transfer by checking for tiny flaws in the design.

These design flaws do not appear in the forgeries.

For example, here the original stamp at the left shows a characteristic white flaw in the design towards the top right. This was repeated ten times in each sheet of the 10 parades blue.

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

18 Apr 2019
02:29:05pm

re: Help with ID

Oh, I see it now. It's a break in the inner frame line. Don't know how I missed that.
Also looks like the 'crack' extends outwards, involving both the dentition and outer frame line.

Still interesting!
Thanks, nigel!
-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
nigelc

19 Apr 2019
08:59:33am

re: Help with ID

Hi Paul,

I'm glad you've found this of interest. Happy

Most of the design flaws that I mentioned are quite hard to spot without a reference diagram and there is one position on the transfer of the 10 parades blue that doesn't appear to have any flaws.

Here's another example.

The transfer unit for the 10 parades blue consisted of ten stamps, two across and five down like this:
Image Not Found
and here are three stamps from the bottom row of this transfer:

Image Not Found

The stamp at the left is conventionally identified as position 9 in the transfer and has the same characteristics as the stamp on the right (which is in position 9 in the adjacent transfer block).

The identifying flaw for position 9 is a tiny dot on the bottom of the inside frame line above the greek key pattern:

Image Not Found.

Zooming in further, it's in the middle of this scan: Image Not Found

The middle stamp (position 10) has a more interesting feature as the small circle is missing: Image Not Found

The other values/colours of stamps in this design each have their own transfer characteristics and there are still some details to be worked out.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
pigdoc

19 Apr 2019
11:16:40am

re: Help with ID

Very interesting!

Man, that "tiny dot" on the position 9 stamp is the quintessential "fly speck"!

The Pony Express private issue stamps are really fun and interesting to plate. There are LOTS of major differences between the various positions. Sometimes, I'll surf them on eBay just for the fun and challenge of plating them. Is also a good way to practice rooting out forgeries.

Cool that you're engaged in sorting all those difference out.

Thanks!
-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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