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Worldwide/(All) : A stamp for every country (Europe)

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
14 Mar 2019
12:48:50am
Here is my first cut at an expanded Smithsonian "One For Every Country" Collection.

REMEMBER THE RULES:
1. No Offices Abroad, Local Stamps, or Occupation stamps. Those go in last section.
2. All dates are stamp issuing dates (although Smithsonian was quite inconsistent, I tried to clean that up).
3. This is MY example of an expansion, for your consideration and comment. You may decide to go a totally different route. That's OK, and please tell us why.

First off all, I didn't like the way Smithsonian carved up Europe. When it came to Cyprus, that could go either way so I stuck with the Smithsonian decision to put it in Asia. No problem, but putting Greece and Portugal both in "Southern Europe" and aligning the UK with Finland instead of France made no sense, so I carved up Europe like this, with the Balkans combined and the Baltics with the Nordic Countries:

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Starting with EASTERN EUROPE, I separated all Soviet States from the prior and subsequent countries. I also fixed the precedent countries for Russia v. Romania.

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nigelc
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14 Mar 2019
08:41:24am
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Hi Lars,

It's nice to see your updated pages and your selection of stamps.

I particularly like seeing your Hungary stamp from 1990. It's always been one of my favourites. Happy


Here are a few thoughts based on your rules:

Cyprus:

It seems bizarre from a European perspective to put this in Asia.

I would put it in Europe along with Northern Cyprus (unless you consider Northern Cyprus to be an occupation).


Czech Republic:

Shouldn't Bohemia & Moravia be treated as an occupation and moved to that section (similar to the General Government)?


Hungary:

I would split the Kingdom into either two or three, either Kingdom/Independent or Kingdom/Republics/Regency or Kingdom/Republics/Kingdom to reflect the 1918-1920 republican governments and issues.


Poland:

I would include Danzig here as a predecessor.


If I were doing this myself I would some add other short-lived states here and in other sections but I'm aware that you don't want to do this.


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BattleshipRB23
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14 Mar 2019
08:52:26am
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

@nigelc - Historically and culturally speaking, yes but... geographically (by geographical placement), no; Cyprus is definitely Middle East (Asia).

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
14 Mar 2019
01:03:46pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Quote:

"Cyprus:
It seems bizarre from a European perspective to put this in Asia.
I would put it in Europe along with Northern Cyprus (unless you consider Northern Cyprus to be an occupation)."



I agree with Niguel. Cyprus is in my mind in Europe, Turkey occupation of a third of the Island or not. It has always (until Turkey's occupation) been close to Greece, and was a European possession of England for a long time. While some place Turkey in Europe (due to a small territory on the other side of the Bosphorus) it is undoubtedly in Asia. Similarly Cyprus, while close to Asia, has always been culturally European not Asian or Middle Eastern, and refered to as a European country. (It almost merged with Greece if you recall). It almost joined the EC too, before the invasion by Turkey. Geographically it is separated from Asia (and Africa...read Egypt) by water. It seems that the Asian continent is defined by the land mass on the West, and not the independent islands off it.

Quote:

"Is Cyprus in Europe or Asia? - WorldAtlas.com
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-cyprus-in-europe-or-asia.html
Cyprus is a Mediterranean island located south of Turkey, southeast of Greece, north of Egypt, northwest of Israel and Lebanon, and west of Syria. ... Cyprus is sometimes placed in Europe, Asia or even the Middle East. Geographically, Cyprus is closer to Asia but is historically and culturally a European country."



So I would definitely move it to Europe.

rrr..

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA
14 Mar 2019
06:27:29pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Very nice! Logical and easy to understand.
What does the Germany section look like?

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
14 Mar 2019
07:29:02pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

I agree that Cyprus probably belongs in Europe, but Smithsonian put it in Asia and I just stayed with their definition. I tried not to deviate unless I felt really strongly. Others may take a different view and that is quite understandable, especially in this case. Northern Cyprus is in Asia, just like Smithsonian.

Quote:

"What does the Germany section look like?"



Patience, Tom!

Nigel, let me take some time looking over your remarks about Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland. I will try to have a reply next time.

Here is the next batch of pages.

I chose to group the Baltic together and show both a pre- and post-Soviet stamp:

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I also grouped the Nordic countries. Of note, I added the Duchy to Finland. This is where Greenland would go using a cultural/political model as Ralph has suggested:

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Next up is the Balkan Peninsula, so I want to give everyone a chance to chime in, and get a chance to respond more thoughtfully to Nigel, before taking that up.

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nigelc
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15 Mar 2019
01:14:46pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Hi Lars,

Here are a few more thoughts on Europe:


Lithuania:

I would add at least one more predecessor, Memel and possibly also the Lithuanian Administration of Memel, which in my mind is more of an annexation than the typical temporary occupations we see elsewhere.


Denmark:

As discussed before, I would include the 1920 Schleswig here but I agree it could be under Germany.


Finland:

I would add the regional issues for the autonomous Åland Islands, with stamps first issued in 1984.


Iceland:

Following the approach taken so far, you may wish to split Iceland into three:

- Iceland as part of the Kingdom of Denmark

- Iceland as an independent kingdom from 1918.

- Iceland as an independent republic from 1944.


Norway

Again you may also wish to split this into two periods:

- Norway as part of Norway-Sweden until 1905.

- Norway as a separate kingdom with stamps issued from 1906.


Sweden:

And similarly here:

- Sweden as part of Norway-Sweden until 1905.

- Sweden as a separate kingdom

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
15 Mar 2019
10:58:04pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Here are my replies to Nigel:

Quote:

"I particularly like seeing your Hungary stamp from 1990. It's always been one of my favourites."



Mine, too!

"Shouldn't Bohemia & Moravia be treated as an occupation" - Yes, I think you are right, and I've added a note to that page.

"I would split the Kingdom into either two or three, either Kingdom/Independent or Kingdom/Republics/Regency or Kingdom/Republics/Kingdom to reflect the 1918-1920 republican governments and issues." - That was my initial plan, I even highlighted the sectional differences in my Scott catalogue, but ultimately I decided that those were brief convulsions at the end of WWI that belong in the "Back of Book". Others may agree with you, but that would lead to dozens of governments in Central America with little to differentiate them. I choose not to go that route.

"Poland:

I would include Danzig here as a predecessor."


EXACTLY!!! You will see Danzig later, as a predecessor to Germany, but this raises an issue near and dear to my heart: Predecessor of what? Let me explain.

Many times Smithsonian used the predecessor country as defined by the era and I used it defined by current geography. Danzig became a part of Germany, but is now a part of Poland. Which is the precedent country? You will see me struggling with that some more, but I agree with your position that Danzig should be moved to Poland.

Lithuania - Memel is on page 128 of BOB and I believe it belongs there.

Denmark - 1920 Schleswig - that's not really a government, but a post WWI entity that could go into BOB.

Finland - Aland - a local stamp on page 121 of BOB

Iceland - I see your point after 1918, and I agree, but would you say Iceland was a Duchy of Denmark before 1918, or just a territory?

Norway & Sweden - I'm going to have to read up on that! Please allow me a bit of time to review those comments.

And thanks for ALL of your comments!!!


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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
15 Mar 2019
11:12:49pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

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Here I changed the page layout to put all three modern Bosnia stamps on equal footing.

Sorry. I'm a big tennis fan so I had to get the Djokivic stamp!

Eastern Rumelia is an interesting case. Smithsonian placed it under Turkey from 1880-1884 and Bulgaria in 1885, but those were just the countries providing stamps. I consider it a part of Bulgaria and only one stamp is required. This is a rare instance where I actually deleted a Smithsonian stamp.

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Thrace is another area of contention between Turkey, Bulgaria, and Greece. Thrace got carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey (no pun intended), and I just arbitrarily placed it in Greece.

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
16 Mar 2019
07:14:16pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

I have finally had a chance to research Norway-Sweden:

Quote:

"The two states kept separate constitutions, laws, legislatures, administrations, state churches, armed forces, and currencies"



Were there ANY stamps issued by EITHER that even mentioned the union? Absent that, I don't see the need right now to differentiate. But I am generally persuadable!

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
17 Mar 2019
10:30:30pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Western Europe - Part 1 of 2

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I didn't like that there wasn't a space for "West Germany" and "Re-unified Germany". Hopefully this solution doesn't offend anyone's sensibilities. After all, there is a separate stamp for unified Vietnam.

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I move the League of Nations Saar Admin here to keep all 3 together. I know it violates the rules, but it seemed "cleaner" this way.

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nigelc
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18 Mar 2019
10:01:08am
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Hi Lars,

Norway-Sweden:

Quote:

"The two states kept separate constitutions, laws, legislatures, administrations, state churches, armed forces, and currencies""



Internationally they acted as a single unit, with one diplomatic service based out of Stockholm.

I don't see a need either to divide them but I thought i'd raise the issue for your consideration.Happy

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nigelc
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18 Mar 2019
10:21:30am
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Hi Lars,

Some more thoughts on the Nordic Countries.

Quote:

"Finland - Aland - a local stamp on page 121 of BOB"


I don't see these as local stamps but I accept it's a matter of opinion.

I really don't see the point of the BOB section other than possibly for UN agencies but that's fine.

I plan to come back to this point when I get to comments on Albania.


Quote:

"Iceland - I see your point after 1918, and I agree, but would you say Iceland was a Duchy of Denmark before 1918, or just a territory?"


Just a territory.

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nigelc
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18 Mar 2019
10:34:09am
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Hi Lars,

Quote:

"Many times Smithsonian used the predecessor country as defined by the era and I used it defined by current geography. Danzig became a part of Germany, but is now a part of Poland.

Which is the precedent country? You will see me struggling with that some more, but I agree with your position that Danzig should be moved to Poland."



I agree with you that we are identifying predecessors to the current geographical stamp-issuing territories.

So we agree on Danzig is a predecessor of Poland (rather than of Germany in this sense).

I would also make the Polish Post in Danzig a predecessor of Poland but under the current rules it would be in the BOB.

I think the only problem I have is when a territory no longer issues stamps but it's the predecessor of a territory in a different geography.

Guam brought this to my attention. Guam is a predecessor of the United States but I think it makes more sense to keep it as you have done as a main entry in its own geography.


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nigelc
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18 Mar 2019
01:16:42pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Hi lars,

It's beginning to get a little complicated as we get into the Balkans... Happy


Albania:

I really like this Albania page. It shows the history very nicely but it brings up the occupation question again.

It would seem a shame to move both the Italian and German occupations to the BOB.

I'll try and not repeat myself too much but I'd rather keep occupations as part of the history of the country being occupied.


Bosnia and Herzegovina:

The three stamp-issuing companies are a bit of a problem as they don't map cleanly to the governmental units.

Bosnia and Herzegovina is split into two main units: Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Both the Sarajevo and Mostar-based companies operate with the Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina, with BH Poshta and Hrvatska Poshta Mostar operating in mainly Bosniak and Croat communities respectively.

However, there isn't a Muslim government nor a Croat government.

I believe Srpske Poshte operates in Republika Srpska so that one is more straightforward.

Here I've spelt the company names with "sh" where it should be "s" with a hachek/caron accent.


Bulgaria:

I would have kept South Bulgaria and included it here or in the BOB but your call of course.


Greece::

You may wish to conder splitting Greece into:

- Kingdom

- First Republic 1924-35

- Kingdom 1935-1973

- Second Republic

I have to admit that Greece is probably an area where having the occupations and post offices in the BOB keeps the layout much more straightforward.

I wouldn't add all the Balkan War territories but I'd be tempted to include Samos.

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nigelc
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18 Mar 2019
02:31:33pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Hi Lars,


Some more quick thoughts on Greece:

I've had a quick look at the Local section in the BOB and I would suggest removing Rhodes (and also Chalki) from there and adding Dodecanese Islands as a predecessor for Greece rather than as Italian locals.

Another possibility would be to move it to Occupations within the BOB.

Rhodes is the main island in the group and some stamps are labelled "Rodi", others as Italian Islands in the Aegean, or the names of other individual islands.

Castelorizo should probably stay with the Dodocanese Islands/Rhodes given its similar status and history.


Serbia:

You may wish to split Serbia (Kingdom) into two, Principality and Kingdom, similar to Romania.

Technically, there was a separate State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs (comprising former Austro-Hungarian territory) which existed for around a month before joining with the Kingdom of Serbia to create the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

I guess we can ignore this but it may be worth splitting Yugoslavia into two to reflect the period when it was officially called Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes before this was changed to Kingdom of Yugoslavia.


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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
19 Mar 2019
10:33:18pm
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Nigel,

Once again, on behalf of myself and everyone else following this thread, thanks for all the thoughtful inputs. I'm sure you will understand that I will need some time to research the details, but I want to address something now that may be a misunderstanding. To be clear, I STARTED with the Smithsonian pages. I cannot think of a single instance where I demoted a stamp to the BOB section. I can think of at least one case where I promoted a stamp from BOB to the main collection. I am VERY hesitant to do anything more than EMBELLISH the Smithsonian pages with additional stamps that I think paint a more complete picture, but I don't want to get carried away.

The pages you see are mostly my pages because I've added about 16% to the Smithsonian stamp count. Only about 10% of my pages are original Smithsonian pages. I have absolutely ZERO plans to move ANYTHING you see to BOB. If you see it now, that's because I think it belongs there even if it wasn't on the original Smithsonian page. For example, when I talk about Eastern Rumelia/South Bulgaria, I'm not talking about putting that stamp into BOB, all I'm saying is that Smithsonian put ONE ER/SB stamp as a precedent stamp to Bulgaria and a different one as a precedent country to Turkey. That just made no sense to me. So I removed the one from Turkey. I try to point things out where I depart from Smithsonian in any way other than embellishment.

In some cases you may say "that's your call" when I'm saying that was Smithsonian's call and I'm hesitant to make the change. You have no idea how tempted I am to move Maximilian Mexico to North America! And I may make that move yet, but I am MUCH more likely to do that than move CSA to BOB, even though CSA belongs in BOB more than Maximilian Mexico does, IMHO. (But I'm a direct male descendant of a Union soldier, so I might be a bit biased).

The reason I want to stress this point is that there are other folks viewing this that are using Smithsonian as a starting point so I want them to be able to follow along as well.

Thanks again for all of your thoughtful inputs! When I started this many years ago, keijo (scb) helped me so much and emboldened me to attempt an expansion. What you see now are my feeble efforts to leverage his expertise to tackle an expansion of the Smithsonian project.

Cheers!

Lars

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179
21 Mar 2019
01:20:56am
re: A stamp for every country (Europe)

Quote:

"Albania:

I really like this Albania page. It shows the history very nicely but it brings up the occupation question again.

It would seem a shame to move both the Italian and German occupations to the BOB.

I'll try and not repeat myself too much but I'd rather keep occupations as part of the history of the country being occupied."



I don't plan to move ANYTHING to BOB. If you see it in the main section, that's where it stays. There are SOME occupations so profound they HAVE to be in the main section.

Quote:

"Bosnia and Herzegovina:

The three stamp-issuing companies are a bit of a problem as they don't map cleanly to the governmental units."



Far enough. If they mapped cleanly to three governmental units I would be tempted to have 3 separate entities. But given the reality on the ground, is there anything fundamentally wrong with my presentation?

Quote:

"Bulgaria:

I would have kept South Bulgaria and included it here or in the BOB but your call of course.


Greece::

You may wish to conder splitting Greece into:

- Kingdom

- First Republic 1924-35

- Kingdom 1935-1973

- Second Republic

I have to admit that Greece is probably an area where having the occupations and post offices in the BOB keeps the layout much more straightforward.

I wouldn't add all the Balkan War territories but I'd be tempted to include Samos."



I think we've already covered Eastern Rumelia / South Bulgaria.

I agree with splitting Greece as you suggest (that's another one I missed).

I like your suggestion to add Samos to the occupation page!

Quote:

"Some more quick thoughts on Greece:

I've had a quick look at the Local section in the BOB and I would suggest removing Rhodes (and also Chalki) from there and adding Dodecanese Islands as a predecessor for Greece rather than as Italian locals.

Another possibility would be to move it to Occupations within the BOB.

Rhodes is the main island in the group and some stamps are labelled "Rodi", others as Italian Islands in the Aegean, or the names of other individual islands.

Castelorizo should probably stay with the Dodocanese Islands/Rhodes given its similar status and history.


Serbia:

You may wish to split Serbia (Kingdom) into two, Principality and Kingdom, similar to Romania.

Technically, there was a separate State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs (comprising former Austro-Hungarian territory) which existed for around a month before joining with the Kingdom of Serbia to create the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

I guess we can ignore this but it may be worth splitting Yugoslavia into two to reflect the period when it was officially called Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes before this was changed to Kingdom of Yugoslavia."



I wanted to repeat all that so everyone can see the issues involved and decide for themselves what they want to focus on.

I'm satisfied with Greek island stamps I have, as is, and I don't intend to split Yugoslavia again, but there was one issue that struck a chord.

For me, it was Serbia. I ABSOLUTELY agree that Serbia should be split between Principality and Kingdom.

But someone else may have been inspired by something else Nigel or another poster wrote. That's why I'm so thankful Nigel is giving so freely of his time and expertise! Feel free to speak up if you have a different opinion or a different question. This isn't about how to build the Smithsonian album (that's a different thread), and this isn't about MY version of an expanded album per se, but using what I have developed over the past 5 years as a starting point for anyone interested in going above and beyond the Smithsonian challenge.

The Smithsonian pages have about 785 stamps. My version is around 915 stamps. Nigel can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the current list of governmental stamp issuing entities that Nigel and Keijo work off of contains over 2000 entries. That's why the input of someone like Nigel is so important to this task.

I had Keijo to guide me when I first started about five years ago, and now we have Nigel. I would NOT recommend this trip without a guide!

Lars


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