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Europe/Other : France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

 

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

20 Jan 2019
07:31:10pm
I just won this stamp a few minutes ago. However I think it was mis-identified.
There are two different 1 frank stamps in this first set from France. The first is number 8 and it comes in the following shades. 8 Vermillion on Yellowish, 8a Dull Orange Red and 8c Pale Vermillion. The second is number 9 light Carmine, 9b Brown Carmine and 9c Dark Carmine on Yellowish.
I'd like to see opinions from others on which stamp you would think it to be.

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vinman
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20 Jan 2019
08:23:07pm
re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

It looks like there is brown in the color. Could it be a color changeling? The US Scott 183, two cents vermilion looks more orange to me than your stamp.
Are there other differences in these stamps besides color?

Vince

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musicman
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APS #213005

20 Jan 2019
09:24:56pm
re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

I think the paper might be deceiving here....

...looks to me like 9b.

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

20 Jan 2019
11:37:46pm
re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

Below are 2 what I think to be 9b's from my collection. They don't appear to be even close in color to the stamp in question. There seems to be a difference of opinion of what Vermillion actually is but the consensus seems to be Reddish Orange, Orange being the dominant color. The stamp appears mostly Orange to me and there is no Orange option for number 9's. I've considered that the stamp might be somewhat oxidized (sulphurized) which is common in older Orange inks which turns them deepening shades of Brown. I don't see anything in the color that would make me think it was any of the shade for a number 9.
I just see a burnt Orange, thinking it is a number 8 Vermillion on what is obviously Yellow paper yellowish paper. I don't think the Yellow paper could overcome Dark Carmine to make it appear so Orange and making it a number 9c. Both stamps below appear to be on yellowish paper bu there is no Orange in them. Of course I'm being hopeful here but my eyes tell me it is a number 8. It was offered as a number 9 but I cannot see why? Perhaps the owner of the auction house did not see it and one of his minions who are not very knowledgeable just listed it as the stamp space it came out of in the collection, which was not correct.
Whatever the case I can't really lose anything as the No.9 cats for $875.00 and the No.8
cats for $15,500. I paid only $62.50 or 7%. If the scan is accurate, I can't see how anything could change my mind other than a cert.

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jbaxter5256
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21 Jan 2019
12:07:43am
re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

Looks like a 9e to me which is red brown. Try comparing the stamp against a France Scott #39 red brown on yellowish or France Scott #51 red brown on yellowish though for other stamps with similar colors. The France Scott #8a is a dull orange red while #9e is a red brown.

It would be nice to see a scan of the potential #8a dull orange red on yellowish (or 9e red brown), the known #9b brown carmine, the #39 red brown on yellowish, and the #51 red brown on yellowish on the same scanned image for color comparison. I suspect that would lock down your decision on which stamp you have.


In any case, quite a nice question!

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

21 Jan 2019
01:41:16am
re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

J.B. I am perfectly aware of what Red Brown is and would not even think of comparing another Red Brown stamp with this one. It is nowhere near a Red Brown. You can see all of the stamps you mentioned, except of course, the 8's and 9's on my collection site.
Go here too see them for your self: http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/europe/france/france.html
Another stamp that compares well is the mini sheet No.624 below which is Brown Orange. If it was on Yellowish paper I think it would be very close to the stamp in question. Remember that the main color in in a blend is the second color in this case being Orange and no number 9's have Orange as part of their color description. The main ingredient in a number 8 is Orange or Vermillion and the main thing I see in the stamp is Orange! I know my sense of color is very good as I've spent most of my professional life mixing color for painting cars, cutting gem stones and identifying a stamp here and there. If it wasn't I would not be so confused why you all seem to be seeing something else.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

21 Jan 2019
09:07:50am
re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

You're asking for opinions on color shades based on images seen on monitors. This is very difficult to do considering the different resolutions of different monitors, and the ages of such that people use. Plus, you posted an image of an image.

Also, mixing of ink dyes in the 19th century was mostly manually done to varying degrees of success where often the catalogs list similar color variants for stamps where there is very little difference in how the stamps look. Paper varieties and age can also make the color look different.

The only true way to correctly see the specimen for a proper determination of its color is in-hand.

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

21 Jan 2019
08:04:07pm
re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

Michael, Of course you are correct and I cannot remember how many times I have told other people the same thing you have said. I said that I will have to wait to receive the stamp to determine if the scan was accurate. I have found that the scans from this auction site to always be quite accurate. For now all I see is a shade of Orange and in no way does this stamp resemble Red Brown based on the scan nor can I see how it could be a changeling of a Red Brown. The stamp also appears to be toned, the same type of toning one sees in oxidized Orange stamps. If I still see the same thing when I receive the stamp Ill have to make the decision whether or not to use hydrogen peroxide to remove the oxidation. When I get the stamp and it appears to be most any shade of Orange it will go in the number 8 slot, after all I completely trust my eyes when it comes to shades.
Below is a scan of my first page of France with most color variants. Note that the number 8 spot is the one space where a stamp I do not own resides as indicated by the Red dot atop it. There are around maybe 25 expensive stamps that are shown in my whole world wide collection that I do not own. I don't expect I will ever own most of them but include them for the sake of reference and mark them with the Red dot. I think the difference between 8 and 9 are pretty obvious here. The original question was concerning color but I wouldn't be surprised if I have more experience with the set itself than any one else here. It's taken a long time to get that page to where it is now, on a budget. It would certainly be nice if there was another collector here who had advanced knowledge on this particular stamp or the set in general would weigh in.
Besides a few mostly showing there specialized areas, members sharing their collections is quite lacking here so it is hard to know who has what or how they maybe helped? I've tried to encouraged others to show their collections but for whatever reason hardly anyone has taken the bait. For me I just like to look at other collections because every stamp is different at least from the classic period. There are several collectors here that supposedly have very large collections but have basically shown nothing from them which isn't any fun at all. I'd like to see pages of beginners and intermediates as well as I have more duplicates than I can ever deal with and I like giving them away if it does not require an excess amount of time finding them. To many stamps to little time?

I have what I think is a very big help in my collecting and that is my wife has never discouraged me from buying any stamp/s. I always ask here when I want to buy something over a hundred dollars or so and she never says no even though she has little interest in them. It's very much a blessing.

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
20 Jan 2019
07:31:10pm

I just won this stamp a few minutes ago. However I think it was mis-identified.
There are two different 1 frank stamps in this first set from France. The first is number 8 and it comes in the following shades. 8 Vermillion on Yellowish, 8a Dull Orange Red and 8c Pale Vermillion. The second is number 9 light Carmine, 9b Brown Carmine and 9c Dark Carmine on Yellowish.
I'd like to see opinions from others on which stamp you would think it to be.

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vinman

20 Jan 2019
08:23:07pm

re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

It looks like there is brown in the color. Could it be a color changeling? The US Scott 183, two cents vermilion looks more orange to me than your stamp.
Are there other differences in these stamps besides color?

Vince

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musicman

APS #213005
20 Jan 2019
09:24:56pm

re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

I think the paper might be deceiving here....

...looks to me like 9b.

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
20 Jan 2019
11:37:46pm

re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

Below are 2 what I think to be 9b's from my collection. They don't appear to be even close in color to the stamp in question. There seems to be a difference of opinion of what Vermillion actually is but the consensus seems to be Reddish Orange, Orange being the dominant color. The stamp appears mostly Orange to me and there is no Orange option for number 9's. I've considered that the stamp might be somewhat oxidized (sulphurized) which is common in older Orange inks which turns them deepening shades of Brown. I don't see anything in the color that would make me think it was any of the shade for a number 9.
I just see a burnt Orange, thinking it is a number 8 Vermillion on what is obviously Yellow paper yellowish paper. I don't think the Yellow paper could overcome Dark Carmine to make it appear so Orange and making it a number 9c. Both stamps below appear to be on yellowish paper bu there is no Orange in them. Of course I'm being hopeful here but my eyes tell me it is a number 8. It was offered as a number 9 but I cannot see why? Perhaps the owner of the auction house did not see it and one of his minions who are not very knowledgeable just listed it as the stamp space it came out of in the collection, which was not correct.
Whatever the case I can't really lose anything as the No.9 cats for $875.00 and the No.8
cats for $15,500. I paid only $62.50 or 7%. If the scan is accurate, I can't see how anything could change my mind other than a cert.

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jbaxter5256

21 Jan 2019
12:07:43am

re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

Looks like a 9e to me which is red brown. Try comparing the stamp against a France Scott #39 red brown on yellowish or France Scott #51 red brown on yellowish though for other stamps with similar colors. The France Scott #8a is a dull orange red while #9e is a red brown.

It would be nice to see a scan of the potential #8a dull orange red on yellowish (or 9e red brown), the known #9b brown carmine, the #39 red brown on yellowish, and the #51 red brown on yellowish on the same scanned image for color comparison. I suspect that would lock down your decision on which stamp you have.


In any case, quite a nice question!

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
21 Jan 2019
01:41:16am

re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

J.B. I am perfectly aware of what Red Brown is and would not even think of comparing another Red Brown stamp with this one. It is nowhere near a Red Brown. You can see all of the stamps you mentioned, except of course, the 8's and 9's on my collection site.
Go here too see them for your self: http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/europe/france/france.html
Another stamp that compares well is the mini sheet No.624 below which is Brown Orange. If it was on Yellowish paper I think it would be very close to the stamp in question. Remember that the main color in in a blend is the second color in this case being Orange and no number 9's have Orange as part of their color description. The main ingredient in a number 8 is Orange or Vermillion and the main thing I see in the stamp is Orange! I know my sense of color is very good as I've spent most of my professional life mixing color for painting cars, cutting gem stones and identifying a stamp here and there. If it wasn't I would not be so confused why you all seem to be seeing something else.

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
21 Jan 2019
09:07:50am

re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

You're asking for opinions on color shades based on images seen on monitors. This is very difficult to do considering the different resolutions of different monitors, and the ages of such that people use. Plus, you posted an image of an image.

Also, mixing of ink dyes in the 19th century was mostly manually done to varying degrees of success where often the catalogs list similar color variants for stamps where there is very little difference in how the stamps look. Paper varieties and age can also make the color look different.

The only true way to correctly see the specimen for a proper determination of its color is in-hand.

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
21 Jan 2019
08:04:07pm

re: France 1849 Ceres 1 Frank

Michael, Of course you are correct and I cannot remember how many times I have told other people the same thing you have said. I said that I will have to wait to receive the stamp to determine if the scan was accurate. I have found that the scans from this auction site to always be quite accurate. For now all I see is a shade of Orange and in no way does this stamp resemble Red Brown based on the scan nor can I see how it could be a changeling of a Red Brown. The stamp also appears to be toned, the same type of toning one sees in oxidized Orange stamps. If I still see the same thing when I receive the stamp Ill have to make the decision whether or not to use hydrogen peroxide to remove the oxidation. When I get the stamp and it appears to be most any shade of Orange it will go in the number 8 slot, after all I completely trust my eyes when it comes to shades.
Below is a scan of my first page of France with most color variants. Note that the number 8 spot is the one space where a stamp I do not own resides as indicated by the Red dot atop it. There are around maybe 25 expensive stamps that are shown in my whole world wide collection that I do not own. I don't expect I will ever own most of them but include them for the sake of reference and mark them with the Red dot. I think the difference between 8 and 9 are pretty obvious here. The original question was concerning color but I wouldn't be surprised if I have more experience with the set itself than any one else here. It's taken a long time to get that page to where it is now, on a budget. It would certainly be nice if there was another collector here who had advanced knowledge on this particular stamp or the set in general would weigh in.
Besides a few mostly showing there specialized areas, members sharing their collections is quite lacking here so it is hard to know who has what or how they maybe helped? I've tried to encouraged others to show their collections but for whatever reason hardly anyone has taken the bait. For me I just like to look at other collections because every stamp is different at least from the classic period. There are several collectors here that supposedly have very large collections but have basically shown nothing from them which isn't any fun at all. I'd like to see pages of beginners and intermediates as well as I have more duplicates than I can ever deal with and I like giving them away if it does not require an excess amount of time finding them. To many stamps to little time?

I have what I think is a very big help in my collecting and that is my wife has never discouraged me from buying any stamp/s. I always ask here when I want to buy something over a hundred dollars or so and she never says no even though she has little interest in them. It's very much a blessing.

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