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Latin America/All : Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

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pigdoc
29 Dec 2018
11:27:44am
I am an enthusiastic participant in any discussion of 19th century Caribbean postal history, so I'm cranking up another thread with this posting:
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It's my collection of the earliest series of the La Guaira-Puerto Cabello-St Thomas packet, which was initiated in July, 1864.

The top row are all genuine, the bottom row are all forgeries. There seem to be as many forgeries in the marketplace as genuine stamps. Perhaps the definitive reference for these stamps is The Private Ship Letter Stamps of the World, Part 1 The Caribbean by Ringstrom and Tester (copyright unknown). More than half the pages of this 160-page book are devoted to this one packet line, and there is a very comprehensive and descriptive listing of all the forgeries.

Let the party begin!
-Paul

PS, Show us your Lady McLeod!
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rbpuzzles
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Conquering the world one stamp at a time
05 Feb 2019
05:43:30pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Here are the only 2 I have. I am under the impression they are genuine, as i have read that forgeries of the serpentine perforation issues are not known.
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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
05 Feb 2019
05:53:22pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Some helpful links

http://www.mostlyclassics.net/philatelic/StThomasEtcShipLocalStamps.pdf


http://www.jaysmith.com/Lists/Danish-West-Indies/Danish-West-Indies-Shipping-Company-Stamps-St.-Thomas-La-Guaira-Puerto-Cabello.html

Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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pigdoc
06 Feb 2019
09:44:54am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Thanks, Don, for the nice posting!

Again, in reference to the book I list at the top of this posting, it appears that your stamps are both from the local printings, done by Felix Rasco of Caracas rather than Waterlow of London. Rasco used two different perforations, including the saw tooth that your stamps have. There are design features that indicate that the Medio Real stamp is from Stone II, 1866. Stone II printings of the Dos Reales stamp have a prominent dot of color in the middle of the foresail, which seems to be missing from your stamp, although the cancellation possibly obscures this area, as it does the area around the tail of the Q, which is also an important distinguishing feature between Stones I and II.

Very nice used examples!

The red Medio Real and green Dos Reales stamps were used on mail from Venezuela to St Thomas. These were also printed in blue (1/2) and orange (2) for use on mail from St Thomas to Venezuela.

I did not see any reference to forgeries of the local printings. I will follow this posting later with some examples of variants of these stamps.

-Paul

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sheepshanks
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06 Feb 2019
11:28:46am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Quote:

"There are design features that indicate that the Medio Real stamp is from Stone II, 1866"


Do the numerals in the corners change with the year of printing? As all of the stamps show the 1864 date.
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pigdoc
06 Feb 2019
05:32:15pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Thanks for your reply, sheepshanks!

Answer is "no". The 6 and 4 motifs (for 1864) are universal in this issue, regardless of the actual year of issue (September, 1866 for the Stone II printing of the Medio Real; January 1866 for the Dos Reales, Stone II), or the denomination.

About the only design feature that distinguishes Stone I from Stone II in the Medio Real issue is the presence or absence of the tail on the Q of "PAQUETE". For the Dos Reales issues, an additional feature is the dot in the middle of the foresail, present in the Stone II printings only. This gets more complicated however, as one researcher has asserted that at least four different stones for each value were used during the various printings. The reference I have does not provide enough detail to absolutely distinguish between these stones.

I find issues such as this one extremely compelling from a research perspective. Another such issue that readily comes to mind is the US Pony Express issues.

-Paul

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will
19 Jul 2019
01:59:18pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Here are the CENTAVOS issues:
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(* Note 1868 1C black/purple is kinda of a mystery to me... looks like a Type IV but it doesn't show any line over the numeral. Any idea?)

Also... Found this directly from google, not sure which page links to it so sorry for direct linking to it:
https://www.davidfeldman.com/wp-content/uploads/items_treated_pdf/2015/11/144451_278961_1448018304.pdf
(The REALES issues sections is pretty good... But the CENTAVOS section is terrible! full of fakes)


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SForgCa
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19 Jul 2019
03:34:22pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

see
Forgery Page

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bobgggg
President Cortlandt Stamp Club
03 Aug 2019
03:44:52pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean





Would this stamp fall into this category, or is it just a cinderella or fantasy stampImage Not Found

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Jackkelly
03 Aug 2019
06:45:10pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Wonderful thread on an obscure topic, thanks for posting

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SForgCa
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04 Aug 2019
08:16:00am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

bobgggg

This is a Venezuela Cinderella similar to a France Queen Mary Ship

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The Carribean Private mail ships included
Trinidad The Lady McLeod
St. Thomas-La Guaira-Puerto Cabello
Coro-La Vela Venezuela
St. Thomas-Porto Rico, Clara Rothe
St. Lucia Steam Conveyance Limited
The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company
The Hamburg American Packet Company
The Central American Steamship Company

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will
04 Aug 2019
02:51:24pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

@bobgggg That's a venezuelan vignette... that I'm missing Happy So if you don't need it, let me know.

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it
06 Aug 2019
01:22:00am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Here are the ones I've managed to aquire over the years.
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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
will
06 Aug 2019
01:53:45am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Sorry Mitch, I think the entire first row are fakes.

Haven't check the rest.

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will
06 Aug 2019
01:55:59am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Well, to be honest, i am seeing the image in my phone. I'm not sure about the 1c.

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SForgCa
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06 Aug 2019
08:55:21am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

In the first row
#1 Common crude forgery
#2 Genuine less common Type II
#3 Forg. no dot after CENTAVO
#4 Forg. no dot after CENTAVO

The other appear fine but there are different die types in the mix

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will
06 Aug 2019
12:29:38pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Off-topic: SForgCA: Do you have anything written about the Coro a La Vela stamps?

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SForgCa
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06 Aug 2019
04:47:53pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Coro La Vela short version
The stamps were primarily used on the mail carried by the railway but also on letters carried by sea from La Vela to Curacao.
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A total of 7 similar designs and printings from 1867-75
These stamps now command a very high value but surprisingly 20 years ago they were quite affordable.

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The one shown is an invert but actually not scarce
5 values on different color paper of the pigeon carrying mail
These are relatively common and you can find a set for $25
There are also 2 uncommon issues with "Official" and "Porte-Libre" inscribed on them.
Used ones have the same control blue cancel that reads Anotada / CORREO DEL /KOMERCIO.

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The railway engine stamp was prepared for use but not issued.

To date I have not seen any forgeries but probably some pigeon reprints

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it
06 Aug 2019
10:11:08pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Will & SforgCa Thanks for the input! I suspected as much.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
will
06 Aug 2019
10:35:42pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

SForgCa: Thanks... Nice pictures.

Are those pieces yours? The orange "Correo de Coro a la Vela y viceversa" is a variety of the "regular" where the lower star is left aligned. It is less common than the already rare regular centered star so congrats! This variety has not been listed until very very recently. I was the proud lucky one who "discover" it Happy

The so-called "palomitas" issues (Pidgeons) are, in my humble opinion reprints in more than 90% of the cases and, as far as I know, there's no way to tell them from the original ones using direct examination (naked eye or magnification.)

I've the feeling that the only way to tell them apart would be to use an spectrometry on the ink used to print the designs (why? Because the same papers and cliches were used on the reprints. I don't think the same ink was used in both printings.)







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SForgCa
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07 Aug 2019
10:05:18am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Will
I obtained the stamps in an estate sale "many" years ago
I sold the issues some 10-15 years ago (a nice profit) - hence the images I kept for file.

I am aware that the one shown was not described in early catalogs and that there are at least 3 color variations - orange, yellow & blue
It appears that those on covers show no cancels??

These particular ship locals are not so much in my main interest so I am not really aware of the fine details regarding the asterisk position - only that it is described as varying but the few covers on auctions below seem to have the same location
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I mentioned that I had not seen forgeries BUT I have seen a few sets of the others in the series for sale at unreasonably low prices and in very good condition so I suspect modern forgeries exist.
I have no information on the pigeon reprints. I have seen a "full Set" in great condition with the control cancel (in different colors ?) for prices upwards of $700 and some singles for $25. Based on the numbers available, reprints would be a good conclusion.

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will
08 Aug 2019
03:19:50pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean

Sorry folks, I'm not sure what's the best forum to post "thanks!" so I'll do it here. moderator, sorry to bug, feel free to move it to an adequate place!

Thank you bobgggg for that nice cinderella! I really appreciate it!

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