Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
L-R: Dull Blue (270B); Bright Blue (270A); Cobalt Blue (steel blue)
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That's very interesting. It certainly is a completely different shade, but it seems too grey to be cobalt. Has it been expertised yet?
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Hi Dave
I thought the same, but the shade has been confirmed by the Juzwin brothers to be cobalt, I'll have to change a little detailing on the post, it should have read "steel blue". I'll be sending the stamp to Chris Ceremuga after it is shown at the ACCC on December 17.
Dr Geoff Kellows, Michael Drury and Scott Starling are members and are always in attendance there, it will be another shade to add to the ACSC if it isn't too late, the new colour edition of KGVI will be released sometime early January 2019.
Rob
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Hi Rob
That is impressive.
It just goes to show, that nothing is finite in the world of Australian Philately.
I will be checking my stamps to see what colours they are.
Horamakhet
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Hi Rob, I can clearly see the difference in colours on my monitor. Could you explain to me, if you can, what needs to occur for a new colour variety to be produced. I have put forth come possible answers below, but I am well out of my depth.
1. A slightly different coloured ink is used when printing?
OR
2. The same ink is used as on on previous printings but a different paper is used that causes a different absorption of the ink?
OR
3. Some other factor that I'm not aware of has caused the different shade?
Cheers,
The Emu
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Hi Horamakhet
There is always something different in philately, new discoveries whether it is a shade, paper type or variety. I've experienced a few of the unexpected.
You will be surprised what you may find, there are shades that look identical but a closer look will show they aren't.
Rob
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"what needs to occur for a new colour variety to be produced"
Through the centuries of printing, the methods of creating colors has changed.
You have the basics where colors were mixed by hand. Formulas where available, but if a little too much of one dye got into the mix, there was a color variety. This was especially true if a new print run was needed a few years later. A different person might be mixing the colors, and the end result could be a slightly different tone.
The base used to make Different types of dyes and inks also affect color shades. Aniline inks used to produce, say a green, may look different than an oil based ink, and today acrylic colors may have slightly different shades than oil as well.
Paper could have an effect on the final color as well.
Water is used during the printing process to help the ink absorb into the paper. Too much or too little could produce different shades.
Color dyes obtained from different manufacturers could have different shades.
Standards in color make things more constant these days, but variances can still occur.
Put it all together, and you can see the myriad possibilities of different color shades for any color you can think of.
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In my opinion and along the line of Michaels post…
I am dubious of ‘new’ colors being consider a variety (even with ‘expert’ groups). Inks, paper, and environmental conditions all effect the stamp color. After many years, how can anyone say for sure that two stamp have not been exposed to different environmental conditions that ahs resulted in the appearance of different colors? (Also note that color standard and reference books also begin to chemically change right after publishing and have a short ‘shelf life’.)
I also question any discussion regarding color without the ambient lighting being fully identified and/or defined. Colors are light reflecting off a surface, change the ambient light the color changes. And let’s not even begin to try to deal with the differences in video software, scanner software, display monitors, etc.
There is currently only one way to develop stamp color expertise. Build a massive (tens of thousand) of the target stamp (mint only), develop a great ‘color eye’ (women have far better color detection than men), and then define and control your ambient lighting conditions.
Don
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Hi Oldmanemu
The comments posted by michael78651 and 51Studebaker are very informative as to why different shades occur, and a shade is of course not a variety, a variety is an error or something that had occurred to certain stamps during the process of printing.
The cobalt blue may be an experimental ink issue; I have a couple of experimental ink stamps of the George V 1935 Silver Jubilee which I posted online a few years back.
Ink can change colour, like the gold overprint of the 3d B.C.O.F. proof, over time the ink pigment that created the gold colour oxidised creating a brown appearance (fortunately mine still has the original gold ink).
Certain shades can range from scarce to extremely rare, the cobalt is scarce.
I will be looking further into the cobalt blue £1 and will post the information, hopefully I’ll be able to do that today.
I always ask my fiancee what colour certain stamps are (as an artist she is very adept in identifying shades (I'm partially colour blind), The Juzwins also helps me in identifying colours, so I do not have any difficulty in recording colour types.
Rob
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Hi Rob,
When speaking about colors, the nomenclature is as follows (see image below)
Hue – Basic Colors
Shade – Color mixed with black
Tint – Color mixed with white
Tone – Color mixed with gray
In your post you used the word ‘shade’, do you mean a blue mixed with black or did you mean that cobalt blue is a different hue? Ink change chemistry over time, they are many examples which this is easy to see. This is especially true for inks which contain some of the heavy metals which typically get darker. I am trying to understand if you meant ‘shade’ in that the blue is darker (truthful the colors from your image on my monitor are very subtle and I am hesitant to draw any conclusions based upon a digital image)? I think that you might have meant that cobalt blue is a completely different hue (not shade)?
How can you be sure that the stamp(s) have not seen an environmental conditions which has impacted the colors? On my monitor it also appears that the paper is a slightly different color, that makes me suspect of a possible environmental impact.
Don
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Hi Don
The actual shade is steel blue, it is also known as cobalt, I do not believe it was a changeling or oxidising of ink pigment over the years, it is a natural colour and the digital image is very much the same as the stamp itself.
Depending on the monitor, quality (graphics) and age the image will differ, and of course getting a fairer idea of the stamps actual colour may not be possible, but it should look something like a grey-blue.
The official identification of the stamp by the Juzwins is of a steel blue shade, I was also informed that is also referred to as cobalt. I am very particular about the stamps I collect, and I would not be happy being sold an environmentally damaged stamp.
The Juzwins have an exemplary track record for providing the best quality stamps sold on the market, I have dealt with them for a few years now and not once have I been given an environmentally altered stamp, nor would they supply any to any other customer, so for the stamp probably being affected by environmental conditions is zero.
Anyway, as always I will be researching on the provenance of the stamp and hopefully will give better information on this unusual shade sometime today.
Rob
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Finally found out why the stamp is of a steel blue (cobalt) shade. And yes, the ink and paper did have an effect on the colour, this is what I was told.
The stamp was printed on a slightly yellowy paper and the colour was by accident, there was a mistake in the mixing of ink pigment that caused the blue to turn steel blue, most likely too much black, and it was an oversight by the printer to have allowed this error through the printing process and issued to the public.
Rob
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The collection of Coat-of-Arms so far with shades, paper types and overprints.
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Way to plough through and get to the answer Rob. Quite a saga. Especially involving something as elusive as color.
Eric
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Hi Rob and all
It never ceases to amaze me the information Rob has.
Rob, you will have me running off to colour type all my COA stamps now, specially all the blue ones.
Regards
Horamakhet
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Hi Eric
Such questions need to be answered (I always have to work hard when it comes to Don's questions, and loving every minute of it), and it is always a saga when colour is concerned when being partially colour blind makes it a little difficult, I need to pull out my secret weapon - my fiancee.
But I'm quite versed on KGVI and QEII stamps, and I never get tired sharing my knowledge on the two monarchs.
Rob
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Hi Horamakhet
They do look pretty good when displayed in order of denomination and shade, and true, there is nothing finite in the world of Australian Philately, something will surface that will make people want to know more.
You should, you may find different shades or an unknown one, if not, it will make the search more interesting, some of the shades are not rare, just hard to find.
Rob
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10:28:23am
Regarding color shades on stamps in general and British Colonies specifically, there are typically three reasons that they exist:
1. A change of ink during the printing.
2. Multiple printings of the same stamp.
3. Exposure to the elements which modifies the look of the stamp.
Here are some examples of these occurrences.
A change of ink during the printing.
I have seen this specifically on the KGVI Ascension 1/2d Perf 13. (Gibbons 38, Scott 40a) There are two distinct colors. The first shade has crisp colors and a black head color. The second printing is a lighter purple with a greyish head color. This happened because the print run did not complete the first day and had to be finished the next morning. They had to mix new ink the next day to complete the printing. This also resulted in the long E error which exists on one shade, but not on the other. The damage occurred during the morning print run, so it is not found on the first color version. Here are images of the two shades from my article on identifying Ascension stamps. The first printing is the one on the left. These two stamps are not catalog listed, but you will find a recent article about them in the King George VI Collectors' Society newsletter. If you want to read my article on identifying Ascension, use the link below the pictures.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/articles/ascension/Ascension.htm
There are a number of stamps that were printed more than one time resulting in catalog listed shades. One of the reasons King George VI British Colonies are so popular is the fact that many of the sets were printed multiple times (as many as 25 times for some issues). The stamps were printed in factories that were affected by shortages of paper and ink, as well as damage caused by German bombing during World War II. The result is different types of paper, various colors and even differences in the gum which can all be used to identify the stamp. There are a number of examples, but here is a dramatic one that is listed by all of the catalogs - Leeward Islands Pound Perf 14 issues. There were three different papers used for the six printings from 1938 until 1944. Each of the papers has an assigned catalog number and is easily identified if you know what to look for. Here are the three images. To the left is the 1938 printing (Gibbons 114, Scott 115a), The middle is the carmine paper from the 1942 printings (Gibbons 114a, Scott 115b), and to the right is the salmon paper from the (Gibbons 114b, Scott 115c). If you want to read my article on identifying the Leeward Pound values, use the link below the images.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/articles/leeward/LeewardLB.html
Sorry, but I don't have any changelings documented, but they are easily spotted if you are familiar with how the stamp should look. Typically too much sunlight which will bleach the image, too much humidity which will cause toning, or other things like chemical exposure will cause the stamp to change color.
If you are interested in seeing how to identify various British Colony stamps, I currently have 180 web pages devoted so individual sets. There are over 3,800 images of stamps and tips on how to sort them. Use this link to access the index page which lists all of the articles.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/KGVIStamps-ArticleIndex.html
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Tom -
Good explanation for all the different shades of stamps from the British Colonies, especially produced during the war years. I have noticed it on Hong Kong stamps, too, which is not on your list of articles in the link above. Here are a few I have found, many shades of violet, from almost blue to gray:
Linus
p.s. I am sorry Rob to hijack your thread, but I was using these HK stamps to further illustrate Tom's reply.
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That's okay Linus, but I do not see the relevance of different shades of other Commonwealth countries during or post WWII. Australia had to also - pun not intended "bite the bullet" during and straight after WWII.
But in the late 40s, printing was very much back to normal, especially with the Australian Coat-of-Arms series mentioned in this thread (1949-51).
Although there are various shades in this series, most were caused by too much or too little of a certain colour. In the case of the steel blue stamp, it is the result of too much black.
And yes, one could say "a change of ink during the printing", some were caused by a change of ink pigment when mixing to accidentally adding too much of one colour. and some too little with which I have both.
I have a few KGV 1935 Silver Jubilees that are printed with experimental ink.
Even though I have basic knowledge on other Commonwealth countries, I am proficient with KGVI and QEII stamps.
Rob
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10:58:17am
Rob, my post made based on some other posts in this thread about determining color by just looking at a color wheel. I admit it wasn't specific to your posting, but I wanted to add some detail to the concept of identifying color shades because collectors tend to think that color is the only issue in the mix.
When you look at catalog listings of color shades, what they are really listing is new printings that were caused by one of the factors I mentioned. This includes the type of paper, the type of gum, the ink, and the environment. All play a part. In my experience with British Colonies (not Australia), I have seen that the specialized catalogs (Commonwealth and Stanley Gibbons) described the first printing when they created the listing, and then added significant changes to the listing. That is what happened with the Leeward Island Pound values I posted, and also with other listings. Scott usually puts the cheapest stamp first and the more expensive ones afterwards, so that doesn't apply to their listings.
I have many copies of the first KGVI Leeward Islands 5/ and there are two completely different shades that I attribute to environment. Here are two images both of stamps that in my opinion were printed in 1938. The one on the left has clear gum and the one on the right has brownish gum which is not unusual for British Colony stamps from that time period that were sent to the Colony. I have multiple copies of these stamps, and there were only four printings, so it is pretty easy to allocate them once you know the factors involved in identifying them. The site link is included if you are interested in more details, and to see all four printings.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/articles/leeward/Leeward5SH.html
The question I have about your discovery is have you found any mention of an experimental ink being used for this issue? Also, how many printings occurred? Are there any other reported copies or is this the only one? The answer to these questions might help explain your copy.
Have you contacted the catalog editors about getting it added to the listings?
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kgvistamps and Rob,
I am having a hard time following your color posts, it appears that you guys are using 'shade' to mean just another color?
In color theory and with folks who work with color a lot, 'shade' specifically means a color (or hue) mixed only with black ('shade'...the way to remember this is a color in the shade will always be darker). 'Tint' specifically means a color (hue) mixed with white.
This is like a non-stamp person listing/calling a stamp 'mint' because they believe a used stamp is in mint condition (not knowing that stamp hobbyists use the term mint to specifically mean a unused stamp with gum).
When you guys posted above the word 'shade', do you mean a color mixed with black or do you mean just another color?
Don
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From the dictionary, a shade is defined as...
a color, especially with regard to how light or dark it is or as distinguished from one nearly like it.
"various shades of blue"
synonyms:
color · hue · tone · tint · tinge · intensity
I was just using the common everyday definition of the word "shade."
Linus
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Hi Linus,
Thank you.
People who are well versed in color and color theory use the word shade as in my two posts above (Google color shade/tint or color theory).
When I have previously talked to those folks who study stamp colors, they used the word shade to specifically mean mixed with black. But often in public forums this is not how it is used, this is why I was asking for clarification.
Don
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Hi kgvistamps
Well put and justified, for a minute there I was going to ground you and Linus for two weeks without TV.
"The question I have about your discovery is have you found any mention of an experimental ink being used for this issue? Also, how many printings occurred? Are there any other reported copies or is this the only one? The answer to these questions might help explain your copy."
As far as I know there has never been any stamp of this series or any other of the KGVI era that was issued with experimental ink, although my suspicion of the steel blue stamp did lean towards that thought, but it turned out to be an accidental mix of too much black and the printer overlooking the odd result of the colour resulting in a small number of sheets being issued to the public.
There is no mention of how many were printed, though only a few sheets have been found, I will try and find out how many sheets. I have seen only one block of 4 on the market.
I'll be speaking to Dr. Geoff Kellow on Monday night at the club about adding it to the catalogue, he is the editor to the ACSC, a few of my stamps will be in the new edition, hopefully there is still time as the book will be published around the 2nd week of January 2019.
Rob
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The word "shade" is used when referring to colour, this is a common terminology to describe the differences in result of new inks, experimental inks and accidental over mixtures of certain colours.
Even though the posts on this thread are quite informative as to the differences to tones, hues, tints etc, these words are only used to fully define certain colours or paper types on stamps (in my neck of the woods anyway).
Don wrote "When you guys posted above the word 'shade', do you mean a color mixed with black or do you mean just another color?"
At the ACCC we commonly use the word "shade" to outline the difference in colour, and the ACSC also uses the word "shade" to determine a particular shift in colour, it doesn't always mean that the colour is mixed with black (although the £1 steel-blue is an exception).
For instance the £1 coronation, there are various differences in the blue, one of the difference is the thickness of paper, if the paper is thin it will absorb more ink making the blue darker.
In some cases the doctor blade may not wipe the ink from the plates efficiently or too efficiently, in which case a little too much or not enough ink is applied to the plates (opposed to removing nearly all of the ink which would result in ink stripping)
In the ACSC page 6/124, section 6 it states "The dull blue shade is from the first printing. The deep dull bluer shade was printed by McCracken, without any alteration to the imprint".
Here is the complete series of £1 coronation and A.I.F. stamps with various shades as depicted in order in the ACSC (some are unlisted shades).
KGV 1935 Silver Jubilee shades and experimental inks.
Rob
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I appreciate that we all see colours differently but in your last images the Scarlet looks brighter than the Bright Scarlet, likewise with the two Blues. The Greens merely look lighter or darker shades of green.
I defer to your expertise but where do we draw the line between faded colours and shades?
Enjoy your posts and sight of stamps out of my range.
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Hi sheepshanks
Yes, I agree that we all see colour differently, the Scarlet does look brighter than the Bright Scarlet, and as I am partially colour blind the specialist I bought the stamps from always write beside the stamp(s) the colour of that stamp, and the colours mentioned is as I received them, and confirmed by my fiancée who has a degree in fine arts and art theory. The blues are correct and the greens, all three have different depth of colour; and one needs a good eye for colour to notice the Bright Yellow-Green but it is the correct shade identification.
”where do we draw the line between faded colours and shades?”
Good question, it depends on what caused the fading of the colour, if it is a changeling, and then the cause would result from various causes such as chemical spill, deliberate alteration to deceive or from long exposure to a strong light source. An oversight in incorrectly mixing the ink can also cause various shades.
As blue is a primary colour, more white than usual can cause the blue to be lighter, in some cases it would be deliberate by the printer and in other cases an error in mixing the intended colour. There is also the possibility that the primary colour was in short supply so not enough blue was added for the desired effect.
So if the intended colour was changed by the printer, accidentally created or not enough of a certain colour was in stock then the result would be classified as a variation of the official colour of that particular stamp (shade).
I added since you viewed my post the KGV 1935 Silver Jubilee with experimental ink.
Rob
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Hi Rob,
Thanks for the clarification on the used of the word 'shade'; more info here
http://www.tigercolor.com/color-lab/color-theory/color-theory-intro.htm#tints_shades_tones
Don
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Thanks Don, that link is going to come in handy, even if I am partially colour blind, my fiancee is going to find this an important part of her colour mixing; she does oils, acrylic, pencils, ink and chalk.
Rob
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This is all very interesting. If we use "shade" as a generic term as in "of different appearance" to include ALL the technical terms used by Don in his excellent posts we are perhaps closer to how the average collector understands it.
It is obvious that Australian issues ( particularly of the George VI period) have been extensively documented, and there is some sort of consensus among collectors.
This is often not the case elsewhere. One of my special interests in GB Machins, particularly of the early decimal period, when I had access to large quantities of commercial mail at work, amassing large quantities of letter rate stamps - theoretically all the same colour. These were cut from the envelopes immediately upon receipt, kept in paper envelopes, soaked by myself, kept in paper envelopes again until examined for my collection. I am as sure as anyone can be that these stamps have not been exposed to light or chemicals, and are not changelings. Yet there is a bewildering assortment of "shades" and many of these are constant across several/many individuals. These are not "slight" differences, but are obvious at first glance.
It is evident that some colours are more varied than others, and funnily enough steel blue/grey blue is one of them ( 14p and 17p ), and I am wondering if other factors such as temperature and pressure of the cylinders could be a factor, or whether some component(s) of the ink might be unstable and could affect the final appearance. Perhaps Don could draw on his experience.
My approach is to work on direct comparison, and provided that I can be reasonably sure of the integrity of the individual stamp mount them all. While they are not catalogue differences they actually give an overview of the production an it's difficulties.
It is evident that the most modern issues in the Machin series do not include these differences in "shade".
Malcolm
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L-R: Dull Blue (270B); Bright Blue (270A); Cobalt Blue (steel blue)
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
That's very interesting. It certainly is a completely different shade, but it seems too grey to be cobalt. Has it been expertised yet?
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Dave
I thought the same, but the shade has been confirmed by the Juzwin brothers to be cobalt, I'll have to change a little detailing on the post, it should have read "steel blue". I'll be sending the stamp to Chris Ceremuga after it is shown at the ACCC on December 17.
Dr Geoff Kellows, Michael Drury and Scott Starling are members and are always in attendance there, it will be another shade to add to the ACSC if it isn't too late, the new colour edition of KGVI will be released sometime early January 2019.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Rob
That is impressive.
It just goes to show, that nothing is finite in the world of Australian Philately.
I will be checking my stamps to see what colours they are.
Horamakhet
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06:51:50am
re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Rob, I can clearly see the difference in colours on my monitor. Could you explain to me, if you can, what needs to occur for a new colour variety to be produced. I have put forth come possible answers below, but I am well out of my depth.
1. A slightly different coloured ink is used when printing?
OR
2. The same ink is used as on on previous printings but a different paper is used that causes a different absorption of the ink?
OR
3. Some other factor that I'm not aware of has caused the different shade?
Cheers,
The Emu
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Horamakhet
There is always something different in philately, new discoveries whether it is a shade, paper type or variety. I've experienced a few of the unexpected.
You will be surprised what you may find, there are shades that look identical but a closer look will show they aren't.
Rob
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10:35:44am
re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
"what needs to occur for a new colour variety to be produced"
Through the centuries of printing, the methods of creating colors has changed.
You have the basics where colors were mixed by hand. Formulas where available, but if a little too much of one dye got into the mix, there was a color variety. This was especially true if a new print run was needed a few years later. A different person might be mixing the colors, and the end result could be a slightly different tone.
The base used to make Different types of dyes and inks also affect color shades. Aniline inks used to produce, say a green, may look different than an oil based ink, and today acrylic colors may have slightly different shades than oil as well.
Paper could have an effect on the final color as well.
Water is used during the printing process to help the ink absorb into the paper. Too much or too little could produce different shades.
Color dyes obtained from different manufacturers could have different shades.
Standards in color make things more constant these days, but variances can still occur.
Put it all together, and you can see the myriad possibilities of different color shades for any color you can think of.
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
In my opinion and along the line of Michaels post…
I am dubious of ‘new’ colors being consider a variety (even with ‘expert’ groups). Inks, paper, and environmental conditions all effect the stamp color. After many years, how can anyone say for sure that two stamp have not been exposed to different environmental conditions that ahs resulted in the appearance of different colors? (Also note that color standard and reference books also begin to chemically change right after publishing and have a short ‘shelf life’.)
I also question any discussion regarding color without the ambient lighting being fully identified and/or defined. Colors are light reflecting off a surface, change the ambient light the color changes. And let’s not even begin to try to deal with the differences in video software, scanner software, display monitors, etc.
There is currently only one way to develop stamp color expertise. Build a massive (tens of thousand) of the target stamp (mint only), develop a great ‘color eye’ (women have far better color detection than men), and then define and control your ambient lighting conditions.
Don
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Oldmanemu
The comments posted by michael78651 and 51Studebaker are very informative as to why different shades occur, and a shade is of course not a variety, a variety is an error or something that had occurred to certain stamps during the process of printing.
The cobalt blue may be an experimental ink issue; I have a couple of experimental ink stamps of the George V 1935 Silver Jubilee which I posted online a few years back.
Ink can change colour, like the gold overprint of the 3d B.C.O.F. proof, over time the ink pigment that created the gold colour oxidised creating a brown appearance (fortunately mine still has the original gold ink).
Certain shades can range from scarce to extremely rare, the cobalt is scarce.
I will be looking further into the cobalt blue £1 and will post the information, hopefully I’ll be able to do that today.
I always ask my fiancee what colour certain stamps are (as an artist she is very adept in identifying shades (I'm partially colour blind), The Juzwins also helps me in identifying colours, so I do not have any difficulty in recording colour types.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Rob,
When speaking about colors, the nomenclature is as follows (see image below)
Hue – Basic Colors
Shade – Color mixed with black
Tint – Color mixed with white
Tone – Color mixed with gray
In your post you used the word ‘shade’, do you mean a blue mixed with black or did you mean that cobalt blue is a different hue? Ink change chemistry over time, they are many examples which this is easy to see. This is especially true for inks which contain some of the heavy metals which typically get darker. I am trying to understand if you meant ‘shade’ in that the blue is darker (truthful the colors from your image on my monitor are very subtle and I am hesitant to draw any conclusions based upon a digital image)? I think that you might have meant that cobalt blue is a completely different hue (not shade)?
How can you be sure that the stamp(s) have not seen an environmental conditions which has impacted the colors? On my monitor it also appears that the paper is a slightly different color, that makes me suspect of a possible environmental impact.
Don
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Don
The actual shade is steel blue, it is also known as cobalt, I do not believe it was a changeling or oxidising of ink pigment over the years, it is a natural colour and the digital image is very much the same as the stamp itself.
Depending on the monitor, quality (graphics) and age the image will differ, and of course getting a fairer idea of the stamps actual colour may not be possible, but it should look something like a grey-blue.
The official identification of the stamp by the Juzwins is of a steel blue shade, I was also informed that is also referred to as cobalt. I am very particular about the stamps I collect, and I would not be happy being sold an environmentally damaged stamp.
The Juzwins have an exemplary track record for providing the best quality stamps sold on the market, I have dealt with them for a few years now and not once have I been given an environmentally altered stamp, nor would they supply any to any other customer, so for the stamp probably being affected by environmental conditions is zero.
Anyway, as always I will be researching on the provenance of the stamp and hopefully will give better information on this unusual shade sometime today.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Finally found out why the stamp is of a steel blue (cobalt) shade. And yes, the ink and paper did have an effect on the colour, this is what I was told.
The stamp was printed on a slightly yellowy paper and the colour was by accident, there was a mistake in the mixing of ink pigment that caused the blue to turn steel blue, most likely too much black, and it was an oversight by the printer to have allowed this error through the printing process and issued to the public.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
The collection of Coat-of-Arms so far with shades, paper types and overprints.
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Way to plough through and get to the answer Rob. Quite a saga. Especially involving something as elusive as color.
Eric
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Rob and all
It never ceases to amaze me the information Rob has.
Rob, you will have me running off to colour type all my COA stamps now, specially all the blue ones.
Regards
Horamakhet
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Eric
Such questions need to be answered (I always have to work hard when it comes to Don's questions, and loving every minute of it), and it is always a saga when colour is concerned when being partially colour blind makes it a little difficult, I need to pull out my secret weapon - my fiancee.
But I'm quite versed on KGVI and QEII stamps, and I never get tired sharing my knowledge on the two monarchs.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Horamakhet
They do look pretty good when displayed in order of denomination and shade, and true, there is nothing finite in the world of Australian Philately, something will surface that will make people want to know more.
You should, you may find different shades or an unknown one, if not, it will make the search more interesting, some of the shades are not rare, just hard to find.
Rob
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Collecting King George VI from all countries, and King Edward VII and King George V from the West Indies.
14 Dec 2018
10:28:23am
re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Regarding color shades on stamps in general and British Colonies specifically, there are typically three reasons that they exist:
1. A change of ink during the printing.
2. Multiple printings of the same stamp.
3. Exposure to the elements which modifies the look of the stamp.
Here are some examples of these occurrences.
A change of ink during the printing.
I have seen this specifically on the KGVI Ascension 1/2d Perf 13. (Gibbons 38, Scott 40a) There are two distinct colors. The first shade has crisp colors and a black head color. The second printing is a lighter purple with a greyish head color. This happened because the print run did not complete the first day and had to be finished the next morning. They had to mix new ink the next day to complete the printing. This also resulted in the long E error which exists on one shade, but not on the other. The damage occurred during the morning print run, so it is not found on the first color version. Here are images of the two shades from my article on identifying Ascension stamps. The first printing is the one on the left. These two stamps are not catalog listed, but you will find a recent article about them in the King George VI Collectors' Society newsletter. If you want to read my article on identifying Ascension, use the link below the pictures.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/articles/ascension/Ascension.htm
There are a number of stamps that were printed more than one time resulting in catalog listed shades. One of the reasons King George VI British Colonies are so popular is the fact that many of the sets were printed multiple times (as many as 25 times for some issues). The stamps were printed in factories that were affected by shortages of paper and ink, as well as damage caused by German bombing during World War II. The result is different types of paper, various colors and even differences in the gum which can all be used to identify the stamp. There are a number of examples, but here is a dramatic one that is listed by all of the catalogs - Leeward Islands Pound Perf 14 issues. There were three different papers used for the six printings from 1938 until 1944. Each of the papers has an assigned catalog number and is easily identified if you know what to look for. Here are the three images. To the left is the 1938 printing (Gibbons 114, Scott 115a), The middle is the carmine paper from the 1942 printings (Gibbons 114a, Scott 115b), and to the right is the salmon paper from the (Gibbons 114b, Scott 115c). If you want to read my article on identifying the Leeward Pound values, use the link below the images.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/articles/leeward/LeewardLB.html
Sorry, but I don't have any changelings documented, but they are easily spotted if you are familiar with how the stamp should look. Typically too much sunlight which will bleach the image, too much humidity which will cause toning, or other things like chemical exposure will cause the stamp to change color.
If you are interested in seeing how to identify various British Colony stamps, I currently have 180 web pages devoted so individual sets. There are over 3,800 images of stamps and tips on how to sort them. Use this link to access the index page which lists all of the articles.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/KGVIStamps-ArticleIndex.html
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Tom -
Good explanation for all the different shades of stamps from the British Colonies, especially produced during the war years. I have noticed it on Hong Kong stamps, too, which is not on your list of articles in the link above. Here are a few I have found, many shades of violet, from almost blue to gray:
Linus
p.s. I am sorry Rob to hijack your thread, but I was using these HK stamps to further illustrate Tom's reply.
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
That's okay Linus, but I do not see the relevance of different shades of other Commonwealth countries during or post WWII. Australia had to also - pun not intended "bite the bullet" during and straight after WWII.
But in the late 40s, printing was very much back to normal, especially with the Australian Coat-of-Arms series mentioned in this thread (1949-51).
Although there are various shades in this series, most were caused by too much or too little of a certain colour. In the case of the steel blue stamp, it is the result of too much black.
And yes, one could say "a change of ink during the printing", some were caused by a change of ink pigment when mixing to accidentally adding too much of one colour. and some too little with which I have both.
I have a few KGV 1935 Silver Jubilees that are printed with experimental ink.
Even though I have basic knowledge on other Commonwealth countries, I am proficient with KGVI and QEII stamps.
Rob
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Collecting King George VI from all countries, and King Edward VII and King George V from the West Indies.
15 Dec 2018
10:58:17am
re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Rob, my post made based on some other posts in this thread about determining color by just looking at a color wheel. I admit it wasn't specific to your posting, but I wanted to add some detail to the concept of identifying color shades because collectors tend to think that color is the only issue in the mix.
When you look at catalog listings of color shades, what they are really listing is new printings that were caused by one of the factors I mentioned. This includes the type of paper, the type of gum, the ink, and the environment. All play a part. In my experience with British Colonies (not Australia), I have seen that the specialized catalogs (Commonwealth and Stanley Gibbons) described the first printing when they created the listing, and then added significant changes to the listing. That is what happened with the Leeward Island Pound values I posted, and also with other listings. Scott usually puts the cheapest stamp first and the more expensive ones afterwards, so that doesn't apply to their listings.
I have many copies of the first KGVI Leeward Islands 5/ and there are two completely different shades that I attribute to environment. Here are two images both of stamps that in my opinion were printed in 1938. The one on the left has clear gum and the one on the right has brownish gum which is not unusual for British Colony stamps from that time period that were sent to the Colony. I have multiple copies of these stamps, and there were only four printings, so it is pretty easy to allocate them once you know the factors involved in identifying them. The site link is included if you are interested in more details, and to see all four printings.
http://www.kgvistamps.com/articles/leeward/Leeward5SH.html
The question I have about your discovery is have you found any mention of an experimental ink being used for this issue? Also, how many printings occurred? Are there any other reported copies or is this the only one? The answer to these questions might help explain your copy.
Have you contacted the catalog editors about getting it added to the listings?
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
kgvistamps and Rob,
I am having a hard time following your color posts, it appears that you guys are using 'shade' to mean just another color?
In color theory and with folks who work with color a lot, 'shade' specifically means a color (or hue) mixed only with black ('shade'...the way to remember this is a color in the shade will always be darker). 'Tint' specifically means a color (hue) mixed with white.
This is like a non-stamp person listing/calling a stamp 'mint' because they believe a used stamp is in mint condition (not knowing that stamp hobbyists use the term mint to specifically mean a unused stamp with gum).
When you guys posted above the word 'shade', do you mean a color mixed with black or do you mean just another color?
Don
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
From the dictionary, a shade is defined as...
a color, especially with regard to how light or dark it is or as distinguished from one nearly like it.
"various shades of blue"
synonyms:
color · hue · tone · tint · tinge · intensity
I was just using the common everyday definition of the word "shade."
Linus
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Linus,
Thank you.
People who are well versed in color and color theory use the word shade as in my two posts above (Google color shade/tint or color theory).
When I have previously talked to those folks who study stamp colors, they used the word shade to specifically mean mixed with black. But often in public forums this is not how it is used, this is why I was asking for clarification.
Don
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi kgvistamps
Well put and justified, for a minute there I was going to ground you and Linus for two weeks without TV.
"The question I have about your discovery is have you found any mention of an experimental ink being used for this issue? Also, how many printings occurred? Are there any other reported copies or is this the only one? The answer to these questions might help explain your copy."
As far as I know there has never been any stamp of this series or any other of the KGVI era that was issued with experimental ink, although my suspicion of the steel blue stamp did lean towards that thought, but it turned out to be an accidental mix of too much black and the printer overlooking the odd result of the colour resulting in a small number of sheets being issued to the public.
There is no mention of how many were printed, though only a few sheets have been found, I will try and find out how many sheets. I have seen only one block of 4 on the market.
I'll be speaking to Dr. Geoff Kellow on Monday night at the club about adding it to the catalogue, he is the editor to the ACSC, a few of my stamps will be in the new edition, hopefully there is still time as the book will be published around the 2nd week of January 2019.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
The word "shade" is used when referring to colour, this is a common terminology to describe the differences in result of new inks, experimental inks and accidental over mixtures of certain colours.
Even though the posts on this thread are quite informative as to the differences to tones, hues, tints etc, these words are only used to fully define certain colours or paper types on stamps (in my neck of the woods anyway).
Don wrote "When you guys posted above the word 'shade', do you mean a color mixed with black or do you mean just another color?"
At the ACCC we commonly use the word "shade" to outline the difference in colour, and the ACSC also uses the word "shade" to determine a particular shift in colour, it doesn't always mean that the colour is mixed with black (although the £1 steel-blue is an exception).
For instance the £1 coronation, there are various differences in the blue, one of the difference is the thickness of paper, if the paper is thin it will absorb more ink making the blue darker.
In some cases the doctor blade may not wipe the ink from the plates efficiently or too efficiently, in which case a little too much or not enough ink is applied to the plates (opposed to removing nearly all of the ink which would result in ink stripping)
In the ACSC page 6/124, section 6 it states "The dull blue shade is from the first printing. The deep dull bluer shade was printed by McCracken, without any alteration to the imprint".
Here is the complete series of £1 coronation and A.I.F. stamps with various shades as depicted in order in the ACSC (some are unlisted shades).
KGV 1935 Silver Jubilee shades and experimental inks.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
I appreciate that we all see colours differently but in your last images the Scarlet looks brighter than the Bright Scarlet, likewise with the two Blues. The Greens merely look lighter or darker shades of green.
I defer to your expertise but where do we draw the line between faded colours and shades?
Enjoy your posts and sight of stamps out of my range.
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi sheepshanks
Yes, I agree that we all see colour differently, the Scarlet does look brighter than the Bright Scarlet, and as I am partially colour blind the specialist I bought the stamps from always write beside the stamp(s) the colour of that stamp, and the colours mentioned is as I received them, and confirmed by my fiancée who has a degree in fine arts and art theory. The blues are correct and the greens, all three have different depth of colour; and one needs a good eye for colour to notice the Bright Yellow-Green but it is the correct shade identification.
”where do we draw the line between faded colours and shades?”
Good question, it depends on what caused the fading of the colour, if it is a changeling, and then the cause would result from various causes such as chemical spill, deliberate alteration to deceive or from long exposure to a strong light source. An oversight in incorrectly mixing the ink can also cause various shades.
As blue is a primary colour, more white than usual can cause the blue to be lighter, in some cases it would be deliberate by the printer and in other cases an error in mixing the intended colour. There is also the possibility that the primary colour was in short supply so not enough blue was added for the desired effect.
So if the intended colour was changed by the printer, accidentally created or not enough of a certain colour was in stock then the result would be classified as a variation of the official colour of that particular stamp (shade).
I added since you viewed my post the KGV 1935 Silver Jubilee with experimental ink.
Rob
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the clarification on the used of the word 'shade'; more info here
http://www.tigercolor.com/color-lab/color-theory/color-theory-intro.htm#tints_shades_tones
Don
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re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
Thanks Don, that link is going to come in handy, even if I am partially colour blind, my fiancee is going to find this an important part of her colour mixing; she does oils, acrylic, pencils, ink and chalk.
Rob
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04:10:57pm
re: 1949 Coat-of-Arms. New discovery - Cobalt Blue
This is all very interesting. If we use "shade" as a generic term as in "of different appearance" to include ALL the technical terms used by Don in his excellent posts we are perhaps closer to how the average collector understands it.
It is obvious that Australian issues ( particularly of the George VI period) have been extensively documented, and there is some sort of consensus among collectors.
This is often not the case elsewhere. One of my special interests in GB Machins, particularly of the early decimal period, when I had access to large quantities of commercial mail at work, amassing large quantities of letter rate stamps - theoretically all the same colour. These were cut from the envelopes immediately upon receipt, kept in paper envelopes, soaked by myself, kept in paper envelopes again until examined for my collection. I am as sure as anyone can be that these stamps have not been exposed to light or chemicals, and are not changelings. Yet there is a bewildering assortment of "shades" and many of these are constant across several/many individuals. These are not "slight" differences, but are obvious at first glance.
It is evident that some colours are more varied than others, and funnily enough steel blue/grey blue is one of them ( 14p and 17p ), and I am wondering if other factors such as temperature and pressure of the cylinders could be a factor, or whether some component(s) of the ink might be unstable and could affect the final appearance. Perhaps Don could draw on his experience.
My approach is to work on direct comparison, and provided that I can be reasonably sure of the integrity of the individual stamp mount them all. While they are not catalogue differences they actually give an overview of the production an it's difficulties.
It is evident that the most modern issues in the Machin series do not include these differences in "shade".
Malcolm
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