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Europe/Other : Italy Scott # 518

 

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snowy12
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25 Oct 2018
09:55:31pm

Auctions - Approvals
Italy Scott # 518 could someone with a current Scott's give me the value of this stamp please, Gibbons 2010 has it at £60-00 used.
Thanks in advance Brian
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Linus
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25 Oct 2018
10:17:25pm
re: Italy Scott # 518

Brian,

I just recently checked out the 2019 Scott Volume 3B from the library. $100 US used. See the listing below...

Linus

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snowy12
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25 Oct 2018
11:08:08pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Italy Scott # 518

Thanks Gary my old Scott's 2008 has it at $57-00 so it has nearly doubled wow.
Brian

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dollhaus

26 Oct 2018
09:51:04am
re: Italy Scott # 518

The 1979 Scott has it at $45.00, so it went up $12 in 29 years and $43 in the next 10 years. No idea why the rapid increase. Luckily, I have one. Wish I knew what I paid and when.

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

26 Oct 2018
11:07:23am
re: Italy Scott # 518

I often wonder what Scott is thinking when they set catalog prices. eBay shows several of these (used) selling in the last month or two for as little as $3.
Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

26 Oct 2018
01:23:50pm
re: Italy Scott # 518

"re: Italy Scott # 518
I often wonder what Scott is thinking when they set catalog prices. eBay shows several of these (used) selling in the last month or two for as little as $3.
Don"



These comments are NOT about Italy #518, but about Scott catalog pricing in general.

Scott wants to sell catalogs. In order to do so, they need the prices to keep inching up. If prices were to go the other way, I am sure their catalog sales would head down.
There has always been a real disconnect between listed Scott catalog prices (granted for a very specific stamp quality/condition) and the prices in the auction markets (where stamp condition is all over the place).
I and most other collectors, use Scott prices just as a benchmark, but I personally would never pay 50% of catalog...so de facto I assume that all Scott catalog prices are set at least at twice the maximum real market price. (there are a few exceptions of course, mostly for truly rare stamps).
Many of the Scott annual price changes also seem to be software driven and not researched, as I once studied the pattern of price variations over a 10 year span for Europa stamps. If one wanted, one could I am sure reconstruct the software routines that was used. This beckons the question: why would anyone buy a catalog annually, except for the latest additions which are set close to the face-values anyways?

I believe that dealers who routinely price at 50% or above, and advertise it as a saleSurprise will face real and growing difficulties sustaining a profitable business model in the current changing market dominated by on-line sales. There are just too many better deals out there, one has just to be patient, to obtain pretty anything you need at less than 1/3, 1/4 or 1/5th of the recent (not necessarily the latest) Scott Catalog prices.

I also find I am attending less and less stamp shows, because I personally find I can buy cheaper and more conveniently on line and I have all my lists and ressources right here next to my computer. Do others here also find their attendance to stamp shows on the decline, and compounded by the smaller number of local shows?

rrr...

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

26 Oct 2018
02:02:36pm
re: Italy Scott # 518

"These comments are NOT about Italy #518, but about Scott catalog pricing in general..."


I did not want to sound like a Negative Nancy and just say the #518 was worth only a few dollars. (So I thought a bit of context would be appropriate.)


This thread begs the question…why bother with putting useless pricing in the catalog? Frankly I feel this is one of the things that damages our hobby. People want to know what their stamps are worth, just like the OP in this thread.

But it takes ‘special knowledge’ to be able to figure out a true market value; some stamp might be less than 5% of catalog value some might be 300% of catalog value.

This opens the door to sellers asking crazy prices, family members and heirs being greatly disappointed, and many folks getting ripped off.

I am unsure how any catalog publisher can justify the values they list. I am also unsure as to why we (as collectors) feel the need to run out and purchase these very expensive books periodically.

Don

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angore
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Collector, Moderator

26 Oct 2018
05:49:50pm
re: Italy Scott # 518

Other than ebay, there are not many real data points for general stamp transactions. You see Scott showing pricing for some issues in many grades. I wonder where the actual data is that is behind the values posted. Scott lists stamps still on sale at post office as 2x face!

It annoys me that some dealer religiously price by Scott rather than market. Is Scott covering market or is the market (typically dealer) following Scott? With stamps such as US Zepps there is significant turnover to see trends but for many issues there is that data.

The other aspect is you see catalog pricing quoted but what is being sold is NOT VF nor NH (for most post 1945 issues).


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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
Jeredutt3

26 Oct 2018
06:36:14pm
re: Italy Scott # 518

Several points to this discussion...

1) I think it is generally accepted that Scott or any other catalog for the matter is truly more of a reference item than a price guide. It is a jumping off point and depending on your demands of quality and scarcity and just desire will determine your willingness to pay a certain price. In my specialty I have paid mannnny times catalog for examples with certain post marks, or close to "retail" for perfect NH examples of cornerstone items for the country or exhibit. However to fill a spot in the album I will accept hinged and less than great centering as long as it doesn't cut the design for most countries for which I pay pennies on the dollar. So, as long as we know what we are using them for most catalogs are fine even if several years old. At the moment I am using 2010 Scotts.

2) I find myself going to MORE shows as the hobby is as much about the knowledge and relationships as it is about the stamps. You can always find the deals, lots, or something to wet your whistle in the bourse and the exhibits are usually pretty darn good and enjoyable.

3) lastly, as for the the stamp that started the thread. I think when you are looking for a specific item once you have the parameters set as to what you want. Unless it is a rarity which you are stalking auctions for ( anyone have a booklet of the 1913 man climbing palm from Dahomey.. cause I will pay over catalog for it !! LOL ) you have the opportunity to shop around and find a bargain vs catalog that fits your patience.

PS... don't out bid me up on the one on eBay now at like 4$... I looked after the post and saw I didn't have this beautiful stamp ! Big Grin


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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

26 Oct 2018
06:45:20pm
re: Italy Scott # 518

Hi Al,
I agree that stamp condition is paramount in determining its value. But if publishers are only going to only have one value per stamp, would not that value be approximately in the middle of the value range? I think these publishers are setting grossly incorrect expectations. That said, we are so far down this rabbit hole solutions seem unattainable.

I certainly agree with what Ralph said, publishers want to sell catalogs. Towards that end, it is indeed far easier to show values going up then it is to show them going down. But imagine the carnage if all the catalog publishers were to suddenly show real market values.

So to me it feels like our hobby is in the Twilight Zone. We rally around catalogs which are not close to reality but that we wish were reality. Even scarier, we willingly drop $300-$400 for each annual Rod Serling episode.
Don

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angore
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Collector, Moderator

26 Oct 2018
07:06:48pm
re: Italy Scott # 518

Don,

I agree with you. The pricing is supposedly what a full service dealer would sell a stamp. As such, it ignores ebay, etc. and other channels were the selling price is lower. It is just asking for exploitation. The audience seems to be regular dealers.

We have seen many comments who sell their collections getting a very very small percentage of catalog and they are upset. People who inherit collections get a false sense of value and confused when they try to sell.

I also challenge the notion that there is a minimum value just to support the market. As I said, the best example is that an issue still being sold by the post office has a value 2x face value. The real world aspect that dealers will pay 40% of face and then we see some trying to sell higher than Scott (Mystic).

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
malcolm197

04 Nov 2018
08:09:38am
re: Italy Scott # 518

Specific to Italy.

Italian collectors ( the biggest market ) almost all only collect mint ( unless collecting specifically for the postmark or covers). It is therefore a given that the majority of used prices are too high, although I don't wish to comment on mint.

Some catalogue editors forget that both supply and demand fix the price. It is irrelevant how much an item is in short supply if there is no demand. There could be twice as many mint than used ( probably with this issue a definite possibility ) if no-one wants the used the price will be much less. It is probable that in this case the price has been fixed with an assumption made as to the relative scarcity of mint and used, ignoring the desirability of one against the other in the primary market place.

While Scott is a U.S. published catalogue, it is used internationally ( although Italians prefer Sassone ), and it is unwise to be too U.S.-centric on it's pricing.

Malcolom

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

04 Nov 2018
09:26:27am
re: Italy Scott # 518

I think the issue is independent of the country of the catalog publisher, none of them have made the transition to the digital age. We are all well aware of the difficulty that tradition publishers have had moving into the internet age. Very well established newspaper, book, and magazine publishers (many with very deep pockets) have struggled and failed at this transition.

And Al made a very good point, stamp catalog are listing prices that supported traditional brick and mortar stamp dealers. The internet blew up that business model and turned virtually every stamp collector into a stamp ‘dealer’; many of whom do not mind working for a few cents per hour. But stamp catalog publishers are still trying to support the nearly extinct brick and mortar stamp dealers full time dealers. Doh.

Hobbyists want to understand the value of their collections. But I divide hobbyists into two groups, those who want to see a high catalog value because it makes them feel good and those who want to know a real market value. So I guess that catalog publishers will continue to be able to demand that collectors spend large amounts of money each year to feel good. We know that virtually none of us will ever see anything close to catalog values.

But we should not minimize the negative impact of not having a reliable value reference in our hobby (for any country or publisher). Over and over we have seen disappointed heirs, family members and other potentially new hobbyists become sour on the hobby when they are shocked to see that what they have in front of them is worth only 1/10th or less than what they were told in the expensive catalog the purchased. Over and over we have seen new hobbyists eagerly start buying stamps thinking they are making great buys based on erroneous catalog values. It sucks that communities like this one and stamp clubs end up being the messengers of this bad news, have you ever seen any of the publishers be willing to stand up and explain why they intentionally mislead collectors?

Other hobbies manage to publish accurate value references. The coin collecting hobbies price guide have cleanly tackled the condition issues; they even have the additional issue of volatile metals markets to deal with and still have decent published value references. Same for the old car hobby, it is fairly easy to understand the value of an old car regardless of its condition and location.

There is plenty of technology at hand to fix this issue, The problem here is that we, as hobbyists, keep supporting these catalogs with values that have no meaning at all. As long as we keep doing this, our hobby will continue to miss opportunities to capture new hobbyists. In my opinion we are accepting a short term ‘feel good’ fantasy instead of demanding a realistic approach to the value of our collections that would help our hobby in the long term.
Don

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malcolm197

02 Dec 2018
08:53:29am
re: Italy Scott # 518

Don

I agree with everything you say. However we also have to accept that the major catalogues ( or a collection of them !) - with all their imperfections are the most comprehensive lists of stamp issues available. Nothing on the internet gets even close. In fairness to the catalogues the sheer volume of items to be listed far outweighs coins/cars, and the number of examples of each issued stamp tends to be in a different ballpark to cars ( and may be coins but I am not qualified to know that), and the variety of collectors interests( and the number of collectors at different levels of interest) don't help.

Yes forums like this, and specialist listings of individual countries, issues or even stamps, made available by individuals and clubs on the net are great for the nitty gritty and detailed information, but at the end of the day you still need the printed catalogue to find out where to start looking.

I am a world collector, and life is much easier when I am able to consult one of my outdated printed catalogues with older stamps, than it is with the more modern complex issues ( short term issues are easy). I can then use the information in the catalogue to expand the search for more information on the internet.

I think that the challenge the catalogue editors have, is to come up with a format which satisfies the information-junkie, while reconciling with those whose interest are purely monetary. Unfortunately those points of view are currently mutually incompatable.

Malcolm

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Author/Postings
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snowy12

25 Oct 2018
09:55:31pm

Auctions - Approvals

Italy Scott # 518 could someone with a current Scott's give me the value of this stamp please, Gibbons 2010 has it at £60-00 used.
Thanks in advance Brian

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Linus

25 Oct 2018
10:17:25pm

re: Italy Scott # 518

Brian,

I just recently checked out the 2019 Scott Volume 3B from the library. $100 US used. See the listing below...

Linus

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snowy12

25 Oct 2018
11:08:08pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Italy Scott # 518

Thanks Gary my old Scott's 2008 has it at $57-00 so it has nearly doubled wow.
Brian

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dollhaus

26 Oct 2018
09:51:04am

re: Italy Scott # 518

The 1979 Scott has it at $45.00, so it went up $12 in 29 years and $43 in the next 10 years. No idea why the rapid increase. Luckily, I have one. Wish I knew what I paid and when.

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
26 Oct 2018
11:07:23am

re: Italy Scott # 518

I often wonder what Scott is thinking when they set catalog prices. eBay shows several of these (used) selling in the last month or two for as little as $3.
Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant
26 Oct 2018
01:23:50pm

re: Italy Scott # 518

"re: Italy Scott # 518
I often wonder what Scott is thinking when they set catalog prices. eBay shows several of these (used) selling in the last month or two for as little as $3.
Don"



These comments are NOT about Italy #518, but about Scott catalog pricing in general.

Scott wants to sell catalogs. In order to do so, they need the prices to keep inching up. If prices were to go the other way, I am sure their catalog sales would head down.
There has always been a real disconnect between listed Scott catalog prices (granted for a very specific stamp quality/condition) and the prices in the auction markets (where stamp condition is all over the place).
I and most other collectors, use Scott prices just as a benchmark, but I personally would never pay 50% of catalog...so de facto I assume that all Scott catalog prices are set at least at twice the maximum real market price. (there are a few exceptions of course, mostly for truly rare stamps).
Many of the Scott annual price changes also seem to be software driven and not researched, as I once studied the pattern of price variations over a 10 year span for Europa stamps. If one wanted, one could I am sure reconstruct the software routines that was used. This beckons the question: why would anyone buy a catalog annually, except for the latest additions which are set close to the face-values anyways?

I believe that dealers who routinely price at 50% or above, and advertise it as a saleSurprise will face real and growing difficulties sustaining a profitable business model in the current changing market dominated by on-line sales. There are just too many better deals out there, one has just to be patient, to obtain pretty anything you need at less than 1/3, 1/4 or 1/5th of the recent (not necessarily the latest) Scott Catalog prices.

I also find I am attending less and less stamp shows, because I personally find I can buy cheaper and more conveniently on line and I have all my lists and ressources right here next to my computer. Do others here also find their attendance to stamp shows on the decline, and compounded by the smaller number of local shows?

rrr...

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likes this post.
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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
26 Oct 2018
02:02:36pm

re: Italy Scott # 518

"These comments are NOT about Italy #518, but about Scott catalog pricing in general..."


I did not want to sound like a Negative Nancy and just say the #518 was worth only a few dollars. (So I thought a bit of context would be appropriate.)


This thread begs the question…why bother with putting useless pricing in the catalog? Frankly I feel this is one of the things that damages our hobby. People want to know what their stamps are worth, just like the OP in this thread.

But it takes ‘special knowledge’ to be able to figure out a true market value; some stamp might be less than 5% of catalog value some might be 300% of catalog value.

This opens the door to sellers asking crazy prices, family members and heirs being greatly disappointed, and many folks getting ripped off.

I am unsure how any catalog publisher can justify the values they list. I am also unsure as to why we (as collectors) feel the need to run out and purchase these very expensive books periodically.

Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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angore

Collector, Moderator
26 Oct 2018
05:49:50pm

re: Italy Scott # 518

Other than ebay, there are not many real data points for general stamp transactions. You see Scott showing pricing for some issues in many grades. I wonder where the actual data is that is behind the values posted. Scott lists stamps still on sale at post office as 2x face!

It annoys me that some dealer religiously price by Scott rather than market. Is Scott covering market or is the market (typically dealer) following Scott? With stamps such as US Zepps there is significant turnover to see trends but for many issues there is that data.

The other aspect is you see catalog pricing quoted but what is being sold is NOT VF nor NH (for most post 1945 issues).


Like
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this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
Jeredutt3

26 Oct 2018
06:36:14pm

re: Italy Scott # 518

Several points to this discussion...

1) I think it is generally accepted that Scott or any other catalog for the matter is truly more of a reference item than a price guide. It is a jumping off point and depending on your demands of quality and scarcity and just desire will determine your willingness to pay a certain price. In my specialty I have paid mannnny times catalog for examples with certain post marks, or close to "retail" for perfect NH examples of cornerstone items for the country or exhibit. However to fill a spot in the album I will accept hinged and less than great centering as long as it doesn't cut the design for most countries for which I pay pennies on the dollar. So, as long as we know what we are using them for most catalogs are fine even if several years old. At the moment I am using 2010 Scotts.

2) I find myself going to MORE shows as the hobby is as much about the knowledge and relationships as it is about the stamps. You can always find the deals, lots, or something to wet your whistle in the bourse and the exhibits are usually pretty darn good and enjoyable.

3) lastly, as for the the stamp that started the thread. I think when you are looking for a specific item once you have the parameters set as to what you want. Unless it is a rarity which you are stalking auctions for ( anyone have a booklet of the 1913 man climbing palm from Dahomey.. cause I will pay over catalog for it !! LOL ) you have the opportunity to shop around and find a bargain vs catalog that fits your patience.

PS... don't out bid me up on the one on eBay now at like 4$... I looked after the post and saw I didn't have this beautiful stamp ! Big Grin


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Members Picture
51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
26 Oct 2018
06:45:20pm

re: Italy Scott # 518

Hi Al,
I agree that stamp condition is paramount in determining its value. But if publishers are only going to only have one value per stamp, would not that value be approximately in the middle of the value range? I think these publishers are setting grossly incorrect expectations. That said, we are so far down this rabbit hole solutions seem unattainable.

I certainly agree with what Ralph said, publishers want to sell catalogs. Towards that end, it is indeed far easier to show values going up then it is to show them going down. But imagine the carnage if all the catalog publishers were to suddenly show real market values.

So to me it feels like our hobby is in the Twilight Zone. We rally around catalogs which are not close to reality but that we wish were reality. Even scarier, we willingly drop $300-$400 for each annual Rod Serling episode.
Don

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angore

Collector, Moderator
26 Oct 2018
07:06:48pm

re: Italy Scott # 518

Don,

I agree with you. The pricing is supposedly what a full service dealer would sell a stamp. As such, it ignores ebay, etc. and other channels were the selling price is lower. It is just asking for exploitation. The audience seems to be regular dealers.

We have seen many comments who sell their collections getting a very very small percentage of catalog and they are upset. People who inherit collections get a false sense of value and confused when they try to sell.

I also challenge the notion that there is a minimum value just to support the market. As I said, the best example is that an issue still being sold by the post office has a value 2x face value. The real world aspect that dealers will pay 40% of face and then we see some trying to sell higher than Scott (Mystic).

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
malcolm197

04 Nov 2018
08:09:38am

re: Italy Scott # 518

Specific to Italy.

Italian collectors ( the biggest market ) almost all only collect mint ( unless collecting specifically for the postmark or covers). It is therefore a given that the majority of used prices are too high, although I don't wish to comment on mint.

Some catalogue editors forget that both supply and demand fix the price. It is irrelevant how much an item is in short supply if there is no demand. There could be twice as many mint than used ( probably with this issue a definite possibility ) if no-one wants the used the price will be much less. It is probable that in this case the price has been fixed with an assumption made as to the relative scarcity of mint and used, ignoring the desirability of one against the other in the primary market place.

While Scott is a U.S. published catalogue, it is used internationally ( although Italians prefer Sassone ), and it is unwise to be too U.S.-centric on it's pricing.

Malcolom

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
04 Nov 2018
09:26:27am

re: Italy Scott # 518

I think the issue is independent of the country of the catalog publisher, none of them have made the transition to the digital age. We are all well aware of the difficulty that tradition publishers have had moving into the internet age. Very well established newspaper, book, and magazine publishers (many with very deep pockets) have struggled and failed at this transition.

And Al made a very good point, stamp catalog are listing prices that supported traditional brick and mortar stamp dealers. The internet blew up that business model and turned virtually every stamp collector into a stamp ‘dealer’; many of whom do not mind working for a few cents per hour. But stamp catalog publishers are still trying to support the nearly extinct brick and mortar stamp dealers full time dealers. Doh.

Hobbyists want to understand the value of their collections. But I divide hobbyists into two groups, those who want to see a high catalog value because it makes them feel good and those who want to know a real market value. So I guess that catalog publishers will continue to be able to demand that collectors spend large amounts of money each year to feel good. We know that virtually none of us will ever see anything close to catalog values.

But we should not minimize the negative impact of not having a reliable value reference in our hobby (for any country or publisher). Over and over we have seen disappointed heirs, family members and other potentially new hobbyists become sour on the hobby when they are shocked to see that what they have in front of them is worth only 1/10th or less than what they were told in the expensive catalog the purchased. Over and over we have seen new hobbyists eagerly start buying stamps thinking they are making great buys based on erroneous catalog values. It sucks that communities like this one and stamp clubs end up being the messengers of this bad news, have you ever seen any of the publishers be willing to stand up and explain why they intentionally mislead collectors?

Other hobbies manage to publish accurate value references. The coin collecting hobbies price guide have cleanly tackled the condition issues; they even have the additional issue of volatile metals markets to deal with and still have decent published value references. Same for the old car hobby, it is fairly easy to understand the value of an old car regardless of its condition and location.

There is plenty of technology at hand to fix this issue, The problem here is that we, as hobbyists, keep supporting these catalogs with values that have no meaning at all. As long as we keep doing this, our hobby will continue to miss opportunities to capture new hobbyists. In my opinion we are accepting a short term ‘feel good’ fantasy instead of demanding a realistic approach to the value of our collections that would help our hobby in the long term.
Don

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malcolm197

02 Dec 2018
08:53:29am

re: Italy Scott # 518

Don

I agree with everything you say. However we also have to accept that the major catalogues ( or a collection of them !) - with all their imperfections are the most comprehensive lists of stamp issues available. Nothing on the internet gets even close. In fairness to the catalogues the sheer volume of items to be listed far outweighs coins/cars, and the number of examples of each issued stamp tends to be in a different ballpark to cars ( and may be coins but I am not qualified to know that), and the variety of collectors interests( and the number of collectors at different levels of interest) don't help.

Yes forums like this, and specialist listings of individual countries, issues or even stamps, made available by individuals and clubs on the net are great for the nitty gritty and detailed information, but at the end of the day you still need the printed catalogue to find out where to start looking.

I am a world collector, and life is much easier when I am able to consult one of my outdated printed catalogues with older stamps, than it is with the more modern complex issues ( short term issues are easy). I can then use the information in the catalogue to expand the search for more information on the internet.

I think that the challenge the catalogue editors have, is to come up with a format which satisfies the information-junkie, while reconciling with those whose interest are purely monetary. Unfortunately those points of view are currently mutually incompatable.

Malcolm

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