Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
This is my last stamp to show you and get some information about
I'm doing this on my own and didn't know how to put the 2 images together
What year it is, the perforations and any other information you can give me.
This site is fantastic as I found out the information in just over a week
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Pooh:
You've hit on a complicated and fascinating area of US stamps. This is one of the "Washington-Franklins," also known as the Third Bureau (of Engraving and Printing) Issue, or the Series of 1908. They're called Washington-Franklins because all of the stamps in the series have portraits of either George Washington (mostly the lower values) or Benjamin Franklin (mostly the higher values). This series ran until the introduction of the Series of 1922 and spanned an era that saw a number of changes in the technology of stamp production. So there are several dozen varieties of this 2¢ red Washington, varying by perforation, watermark, printing method, and "Type."
My best guess from the scan is that your stamp is perf. 11. (But don't take my word for it.) If I'm right, that narrows it to one of nine possible Scott numbers. Identifying these is fun but challenging, particularly when it comes to assessing used stamps for watermarks. Then again, one can simply enjoy the stamp without worrying about ID. The great thing about collecting is that we get to make those choices for ourselves.
See this page for more information: http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/1908WashingtonIdentifier.html
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I could be wrong, because computer monitors don't always show the same for everyone, but it looks like it might be an offset printed stamp. Maybe that can narrow it down a bit as well?
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Thankyou for the response, can you please tell me what the watermark is and why is it so red
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Been trying to do the homework
Is this colour a deep rose??
Is this stamp any type number as I found something on the internet to help but I'm still lost as I think it is the deep colour to me is making the images hard to figure out. I'm using a magnifying glass. If it is a type I thought it look like 2 then one looked like 1A
I found a site where you look at the bead, the rope, sideburns,line under the ear and a couple of others. I'm doing my homework but I'm a bit lost, Is there another site I can look up to help me out
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Just a question does this stamp have a watermark as it doesn't have one.
I know about watermarks mostly Australian on our notes and pre decimal stamps
Both of these Washington stamps don't have a watermark
I'm stuck on trying to find which type this stamp is
Does anyone know of a good website or youtube that shows you how to do perforations checking with a gauge like where on the stamp do you place the gauge, like on the corner of the stamp or 1 hole in as this is where I'm stuck with, including the sides also
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There is a video on this page which shows you how to use a perf gauge
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Home_HowTo.html
Stamp Smarter also has many, many pages of information which helps you learn about the Washington/Franklin stamps of the US.
This tool helps you ID most W/F stamps in 3 steps
http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/SQL_Wash_Frank_ID.html
This page is also another way to step through the ID
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/washfrank/washfrankmain.html
And this page will help you learn about understanding the 3 printing types (flat plate, offset, and rotary)
http://www.stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_printingmethods.html
Don
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Thankyou for the information, I had another go at the perforations and i don't know if I'm right but the 4 sides are 11, I put the stamp in bright light and no watermarks,
I'm finding it hard to find out what type it is as the colour of the stamp is very red, what colour it is I don't know, I'm still trying to find out with the images.
I'm doing the homework as being my last stamp I would like to get as much information as I can
I'm actually enjoying this This is the best site and a big thankyou to everyone as it has helped me alot.
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Please post a scan of the back of the stamp.
Trying to ID many stamps by color is very difficult and filled with problems.
Start with design, then perforations, then determine printing type (flat plate, offset, or rotary), then check watermark.
The Washington/Franklins can be daunting to ID.
Don
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Thankyou for this but I have to wait for my daughter again, in the mean time I will keep looking up information about the stamp
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Pooh,
For what it's worth, the Washington-Frankling stamps are among the hardest to identify. A friend of mine who is a professional stamp dealer has told me that, mostly, she doesn't even bother trying to identify them, but just sells them in small wysiwyg lots.
It might be worthwhile for you to obtain an older Scott catalogue, and perhaps a Scott U.S. specialized catalogue, and just work on identifying stamps based first on design and denomination, then as you become more familiar with catalogues work to identify the more difficult stamps. No one here at Stamporama can do more than help you with basic stuff, especially without hi-res scanned images.
Bob
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Washington-Franklin challenges include seeing a single line watermark, telling the types I I through Vx die changes, and spotting altered (trimmed or added perfs) stamps. The perfs and rotary/flat/offset are usually easier to figure out.
I gave up on them.
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Thankyou for the information I totally agreed with you and I still think this is the best site for information. I have learnt alot, it was good to go through the stamps and I still think old stamps can tell the history of a country Once again thankyou
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this post
Pooh said,
"I still think old stamps can tell the history of a country..."
No one will argue with you about that, and I'm no one here has ever said that. Postage stamps, and covers especially, are historical artifacts that can reveal a great deal about the life and times in which they were created and used. That's almost the entire purpose of my web site, Ephemeral Treasures.
Bob
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Pooh,
i was thinking about this very thing last night. And Bob said it well:
"the Washington-Frankling stamps are among the hardest to identify"
this is really NOT the set with which to embark on learning about stamps, because of its difficulty. I pretty much don't bother with them.
Lars, who posts here often, uses PNSs as a way to determine, conclusively, what's what on the sheet stamps. Eliminates guess work and wrong choices.
But don't feel obligated to ID every WF; there's a billion other things to do. Come back to these, if ever, when your knowledge base and experience are both further along.
David
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I do not like telling this story because I do not like to encourage ‘treasure hunting’; stamp collecting has a lot to give beyond simply making a person money.
About 5-6 years ago I purchased a US collection out of Europe. It was a higher end collection and I was chasing some of the early US stamps in it but it also contained a number of W/F stamps. I am fairly experienced in IDing the W/F stamps (but not an expert) and am well aware of numerous faked and altered W/F stamps in the marketplace. As I went through the W/F stamps, I came across this 2 cent Washington.
The perfs gauged at 12 x 10 so I immediately marked it as an altered stamp. In 1914 the PO did indeed accidently issue a few 12 x 10 stamps as they changed over from perf 12 to perf 10. I was aware that they existed but also knew that only 49 examples had ever been found (Scott #423B, 2013 Catalog value $25,000). It sat around for a while and I finally mounted in my collection as a space filler and penciled in ‘FAKE’ underneath it. It sat in mu album for a few years and one day I scanned the entire page. With the page on the scanner, I also did a very high resolution scan of the fake #423B so I could study the fake perforations. As I looked closer at the perfs I began to question my skill and if I was losing my senses. I showed the high resolution scans to some of the best W/F experts around the consensus was it was worth sending in for a cert.
It came back as a legitimate #423B and I sold it auction a year later.
So while I always caution people to NOT buy the thousands of faked and altered W/F’s that you can find online, it is an area of study which can be rewarding in more than one way. It definitely requires learning about the printing and production history of the era and especially requires learning how scammers alter existing stamps. I wrote this tool to help folks learn about these. http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/WFFakes.html
Don
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11:35:26am
The following is cribbed from the website of a dealer friend of mine under the heading:
"What we don't buy"
Pretty much says it all for the people who find the websites that supposedly list the "100 rarest stamps" and think they have 20 of them. No joke, I have had people tell me exactly that. When I ask "Do they feature George Washington or Ben Franklin?", and they say "Yes", I first tell them that Scott lists 43 varieties of Type A140 (2c carmine in the middle above), that the vast majority of stamps of that design are worthless and that the varieties are indistinguishable to the layman who only looks at the picture. If there is any resistance to that information, I direct them to the Philatelic Foundation site and tell them to call me back when they have a certificate.
Absolutely no point in trying to convince them otherwise.
Roy
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We have had some epic discussions on the SCF forum with folks who simply will not listen to reason. I have been known to offer to pay the certification fees (if the stamp comes back as real) for them. I also make this offer to some sellers on eBay when I contact them to tell them their listing is wrong. After 5-6 years, I have not yet had to pay for a single cert. Some of these kinds of threads tend to get ugly and we have to step in and intercede.
But the truth is that a big part of our hobby are folks who enjoy looking for hidden treasures. I think this is great as long as they understand that the chances of finding a rarity are extremely long (in fact the odds of being hit by lightning in your lifetime is much greater than finding an extremely rare stamp). Pushing back when someone tells you that you do not have a rarity is bad form and rude.
Education is the only weapon in the war against fraudulent selling. But I do not tell people to skip W/Fs, I simply tell them that they need to invest some time in learning.
Don
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02:36:20am
" ... Absolutely no point in trying to convince them otherwise. ..."
I hate to see the face change from someone who is happy and quite
convinced to suspicious and sometimes hurt.
Five minutes earlier they seemed willing to let me or a dealer handle
their one-in-a-million treasure and within seconds that changes as if
they were looking at the neighborhood pedophile standing by the swings
in the local children's park.
Yes, that is graphic, but in my opinion very accurate and accompanied
by the way they scoop up their treasure and close the album as well as
the extreme facial morph..
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02:50:22am
"... this is really NOT the set with which to embark on
learning about stamps, because of its difficulty.
I pretty much don't bother with them. ..."
To be honest, I think that the W-Fs are probably more
difficult than a five kilo bag of postally used off paper Machins.
I bet I have a small cigar box of the W-Fs tucked away
in the back of a high shelf where I seldom search for things.
Plus the Machins have all those attractive colors
with the clever British names.
NB:: A kilo of clean off-paper Machins will usually
contain about 22,000 individual Machin stamps.
Just in case someone was wondering about that.
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10:56:01pm
This is my last stamp to show you and get some information about
I'm doing this on my own and didn't know how to put the 2 images together
What year it is, the perforations and any other information you can give me.
This site is fantastic as I found out the information in just over a week
Login to Like
this post
10:53:58am
re: My last stamp to show you
Pooh:
You've hit on a complicated and fascinating area of US stamps. This is one of the "Washington-Franklins," also known as the Third Bureau (of Engraving and Printing) Issue, or the Series of 1908. They're called Washington-Franklins because all of the stamps in the series have portraits of either George Washington (mostly the lower values) or Benjamin Franklin (mostly the higher values). This series ran until the introduction of the Series of 1922 and spanned an era that saw a number of changes in the technology of stamp production. So there are several dozen varieties of this 2¢ red Washington, varying by perforation, watermark, printing method, and "Type."
My best guess from the scan is that your stamp is perf. 11. (But don't take my word for it.) If I'm right, that narrows it to one of nine possible Scott numbers. Identifying these is fun but challenging, particularly when it comes to assessing used stamps for watermarks. Then again, one can simply enjoy the stamp without worrying about ID. The great thing about collecting is that we get to make those choices for ourselves.
See this page for more information: http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/1908WashingtonIdentifier.html
Login to Like
this post
re: My last stamp to show you
I could be wrong, because computer monitors don't always show the same for everyone, but it looks like it might be an offset printed stamp. Maybe that can narrow it down a bit as well?
Login to Like
this post
04:18:33pm
re: My last stamp to show you
Thankyou for the response, can you please tell me what the watermark is and why is it so red
Login to Like
this post
09:49:55pm
re: My last stamp to show you
Been trying to do the homework
Is this colour a deep rose??
Is this stamp any type number as I found something on the internet to help but I'm still lost as I think it is the deep colour to me is making the images hard to figure out. I'm using a magnifying glass. If it is a type I thought it look like 2 then one looked like 1A
I found a site where you look at the bead, the rope, sideburns,line under the ear and a couple of others. I'm doing my homework but I'm a bit lost, Is there another site I can look up to help me out
Login to Like
this post
02:08:24am
re: My last stamp to show you
Just a question does this stamp have a watermark as it doesn't have one.
I know about watermarks mostly Australian on our notes and pre decimal stamps
Both of these Washington stamps don't have a watermark
I'm stuck on trying to find which type this stamp is
Does anyone know of a good website or youtube that shows you how to do perforations checking with a gauge like where on the stamp do you place the gauge, like on the corner of the stamp or 1 hole in as this is where I'm stuck with, including the sides also
Login to Like
this post
re: My last stamp to show you
There is a video on this page which shows you how to use a perf gauge
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Home_HowTo.html
Stamp Smarter also has many, many pages of information which helps you learn about the Washington/Franklin stamps of the US.
This tool helps you ID most W/F stamps in 3 steps
http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/SQL_Wash_Frank_ID.html
This page is also another way to step through the ID
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/washfrank/washfrankmain.html
And this page will help you learn about understanding the 3 printing types (flat plate, offset, and rotary)
http://www.stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_printingmethods.html
Don
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06:21:51pm
re: My last stamp to show you
Thankyou for the information, I had another go at the perforations and i don't know if I'm right but the 4 sides are 11, I put the stamp in bright light and no watermarks,
I'm finding it hard to find out what type it is as the colour of the stamp is very red, what colour it is I don't know, I'm still trying to find out with the images.
I'm doing the homework as being my last stamp I would like to get as much information as I can
I'm actually enjoying this This is the best site and a big thankyou to everyone as it has helped me alot.
Login to Like
this post
re: My last stamp to show you
Please post a scan of the back of the stamp.
Trying to ID many stamps by color is very difficult and filled with problems.
Start with design, then perforations, then determine printing type (flat plate, offset, or rotary), then check watermark.
The Washington/Franklins can be daunting to ID.
Don
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
10:40:43pm
re: My last stamp to show you
Thankyou for this but I have to wait for my daughter again, in the mean time I will keep looking up information about the stamp
Login to Like
this post
re: My last stamp to show you
Pooh,
For what it's worth, the Washington-Frankling stamps are among the hardest to identify. A friend of mine who is a professional stamp dealer has told me that, mostly, she doesn't even bother trying to identify them, but just sells them in small wysiwyg lots.
It might be worthwhile for you to obtain an older Scott catalogue, and perhaps a Scott U.S. specialized catalogue, and just work on identifying stamps based first on design and denomination, then as you become more familiar with catalogues work to identify the more difficult stamps. No one here at Stamporama can do more than help you with basic stuff, especially without hi-res scanned images.
Bob
1 Member
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re: My last stamp to show you
Washington-Franklin challenges include seeing a single line watermark, telling the types I I through Vx die changes, and spotting altered (trimmed or added perfs) stamps. The perfs and rotary/flat/offset are usually easier to figure out.
I gave up on them.
Login to Like
this post
11:37:18pm
re: My last stamp to show you
Thankyou for the information I totally agreed with you and I still think this is the best site for information. I have learnt alot, it was good to go through the stamps and I still think old stamps can tell the history of a country Once again thankyou
Login to Like
this post
re: My last stamp to show you
Pooh said,
"I still think old stamps can tell the history of a country..."
No one will argue with you about that, and I'm no one here has ever said that. Postage stamps, and covers especially, are historical artifacts that can reveal a great deal about the life and times in which they were created and used. That's almost the entire purpose of my web site, Ephemeral Treasures.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: My last stamp to show you
Pooh,
i was thinking about this very thing last night. And Bob said it well:
"the Washington-Frankling stamps are among the hardest to identify"
this is really NOT the set with which to embark on learning about stamps, because of its difficulty. I pretty much don't bother with them.
Lars, who posts here often, uses PNSs as a way to determine, conclusively, what's what on the sheet stamps. Eliminates guess work and wrong choices.
But don't feel obligated to ID every WF; there's a billion other things to do. Come back to these, if ever, when your knowledge base and experience are both further along.
David
Login to Like
this post
re: My last stamp to show you
I do not like telling this story because I do not like to encourage ‘treasure hunting’; stamp collecting has a lot to give beyond simply making a person money.
About 5-6 years ago I purchased a US collection out of Europe. It was a higher end collection and I was chasing some of the early US stamps in it but it also contained a number of W/F stamps. I am fairly experienced in IDing the W/F stamps (but not an expert) and am well aware of numerous faked and altered W/F stamps in the marketplace. As I went through the W/F stamps, I came across this 2 cent Washington.
The perfs gauged at 12 x 10 so I immediately marked it as an altered stamp. In 1914 the PO did indeed accidently issue a few 12 x 10 stamps as they changed over from perf 12 to perf 10. I was aware that they existed but also knew that only 49 examples had ever been found (Scott #423B, 2013 Catalog value $25,000). It sat around for a while and I finally mounted in my collection as a space filler and penciled in ‘FAKE’ underneath it. It sat in mu album for a few years and one day I scanned the entire page. With the page on the scanner, I also did a very high resolution scan of the fake #423B so I could study the fake perforations. As I looked closer at the perfs I began to question my skill and if I was losing my senses. I showed the high resolution scans to some of the best W/F experts around the consensus was it was worth sending in for a cert.
It came back as a legitimate #423B and I sold it auction a year later.
So while I always caution people to NOT buy the thousands of faked and altered W/F’s that you can find online, it is an area of study which can be rewarding in more than one way. It definitely requires learning about the printing and production history of the era and especially requires learning how scammers alter existing stamps. I wrote this tool to help folks learn about these. http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/WFFakes.html
Don
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
17 Jul 2018
11:35:26am
re: My last stamp to show you
The following is cribbed from the website of a dealer friend of mine under the heading:
"What we don't buy"
Pretty much says it all for the people who find the websites that supposedly list the "100 rarest stamps" and think they have 20 of them. No joke, I have had people tell me exactly that. When I ask "Do they feature George Washington or Ben Franklin?", and they say "Yes", I first tell them that Scott lists 43 varieties of Type A140 (2c carmine in the middle above), that the vast majority of stamps of that design are worthless and that the varieties are indistinguishable to the layman who only looks at the picture. If there is any resistance to that information, I direct them to the Philatelic Foundation site and tell them to call me back when they have a certificate.
Absolutely no point in trying to convince them otherwise.
Roy
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: My last stamp to show you
We have had some epic discussions on the SCF forum with folks who simply will not listen to reason. I have been known to offer to pay the certification fees (if the stamp comes back as real) for them. I also make this offer to some sellers on eBay when I contact them to tell them their listing is wrong. After 5-6 years, I have not yet had to pay for a single cert. Some of these kinds of threads tend to get ugly and we have to step in and intercede.
But the truth is that a big part of our hobby are folks who enjoy looking for hidden treasures. I think this is great as long as they understand that the chances of finding a rarity are extremely long (in fact the odds of being hit by lightning in your lifetime is much greater than finding an extremely rare stamp). Pushing back when someone tells you that you do not have a rarity is bad form and rude.
Education is the only weapon in the war against fraudulent selling. But I do not tell people to skip W/Fs, I simply tell them that they need to invest some time in learning.
Don
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
18 Jul 2018
02:36:20am
re: My last stamp to show you
" ... Absolutely no point in trying to convince them otherwise. ..."
I hate to see the face change from someone who is happy and quite
convinced to suspicious and sometimes hurt.
Five minutes earlier they seemed willing to let me or a dealer handle
their one-in-a-million treasure and within seconds that changes as if
they were looking at the neighborhood pedophile standing by the swings
in the local children's park.
Yes, that is graphic, but in my opinion very accurate and accompanied
by the way they scoop up their treasure and close the album as well as
the extreme facial morph..
Login to Like
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
18 Jul 2018
02:50:22am
re: My last stamp to show you
"... this is really NOT the set with which to embark on
learning about stamps, because of its difficulty.
I pretty much don't bother with them. ..."
To be honest, I think that the W-Fs are probably more
difficult than a five kilo bag of postally used off paper Machins.
I bet I have a small cigar box of the W-Fs tucked away
in the back of a high shelf where I seldom search for things.
Plus the Machins have all those attractive colors
with the clever British names.
NB:: A kilo of clean off-paper Machins will usually
contain about 22,000 individual Machin stamps.
Just in case someone was wondering about that.
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