Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
The cost to mail within Canada was $16.85 (including fuel surcharge, taxes and other government money grabs).
The cost to the USA was $11.52 all in.
I'm gobsmacked and can't seem to find any logic to this (if there is any...)
Could this actually be possible? Am I missing something?
If anyone has some insight I'd be happy to receive it as I may have a few other big offerings like this available over the next couple months.
Thanks, Dave.
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Dave
Goto https://www.canadapost.ca/cpotools/apps/far/business/farLetter?execution=e2s1
You can calculate the rate.
I do not think the rate to the USA is correct.
Doug
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Thanks Doug.
That was the site I was using and when I entered the data (making sure it was categorized as a "parcel" not a "letter") I got the exact same result.
I'm totally mystified!
Anyone else feel like testing it out?
Many thanks, Dave.
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Dave
I calculated from your postal code to California and the cost is $11.52.
From you place to my place the cost is $14.05.
Doug
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Thanks again Doug, but now even weirder...
You confirmed the cost of $11.52 (to California) vs the same amount when I used Florida. I seem to recall from another situation where I requested a quote in advance of listing that I was told it didn't matter where I was mailing in the US, it would be the same amount. So that is consistent.
But I assumed the same would apply to mailing within Canada. I used Vancouver (the farthest point domestically) which again gave me $16.85 - but sure enough, using Hamilton it did recalculate at $14.05 as you noted.
So now I'm even more miffed at Canada Post - and don't understand the logic...
$11.52 to California (a 5.5 hour flight from home - not including clearing extra time with Canadian/US Customs...).
$14.05 to Hamilton (a 40 minute domestic flight).
$16.85 to Vancouver (a 4.5 hour domestic flight).
SO MY CONCLUSION IS CANADIANS SELLING ON SOR CAN DO SO MORE INEXPENSIVELY FOR SMALLER "LETTERS" SHIPPED TO OTHER CANADIANS, BUT LARGER "PACKAGES" ARE MORE COST-EFFECTIVE (20-30% LESS) IF OFFERED ONLY TO AMERICANS.
Not sure it makes any sense whatsoever!
Dave.
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I came across this insane situation myself a few days ago.
I was selling a book, to ensure that I quoted the correct postage I packed it and took it into the post office. Prices (rounded) from Vancouver, Canada were as follows:
Ontario, Canada - $19
Florida, USA - $17
UK - $21
Australia $22
I was convinced that the post office clerk had confused the US and Canadian rates but she assured me that those were correct. So not only was it cheaper to mail it to the most distant US location than elsewhere in Canada, but it didn't actually cost much more to send it to the UK or Australia (admittedly the last two are surface mail).
What is especially galling is that not only do us Canadians have to put up with this gouging, but we also have to put up with sub-3rd world service. International mail from most locations (other than the US) during the first four months of this year was being delayed for 2 to 3 months.
I was expecting a number of registered items during January and February from various places in Europe, I could track these on the foreign postal authority web sites until landing in Canada, In all cases delivery to Canada took 2 to 4 days. Once in Canada it is no longer possible to track foreign registered items. It took TWO MONTHS for me to receive the first item. I had long since given it up as lost. Complaints filed with Canada Post were completely ineffective.
For example an item sent from Israel via Registered Priority mail was posted on Jan 20th, tracking it on the Israeli Post site showed it had arrived in Canada on Jan 23, unable to track it on the Canada post site, when it had not arrived by mid-February I called Canada Post and was told by the Canada Post employee that it is not Canada Post's problem and that the sender needs to file a claim with Israeli post. The item, which had arrived in Canada Jan 23rd, was eventually delivered to me on the April 17th!!
Clive
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Hi (lemaven) & Everyone;
First of all the Canadian dollar compared to the US dollar is; C$1.00 = US$0.77. That means Canada Post will need nearly 25% more money for gasoline to deliver the mails, and 25% more for employee salaries, assuming equally overpaid postal workers like here in the states. US bureau of Labor statistics: US postal employees average $25.41 per hour.
Secondly more Canadians live in rural areas than in the states. However, I don't know the Canadian situation as regards RFD (rural free delivery). Altho the USPS is trying to eliminate RFD in the US by having 10-20 neighborhood residents use a central row of mailboxes grouped together on long planks attached to many posts.
A first class letter in the US is 50¢, and in Canada it is 85¢. This sounds just about right based on the value of the C$ compared to the US$ and considering that Canada is a much more rural nation than the US.
I'm sure Roy or some other more knowledgeable Canadians will correct me harshly if I'm wrong?
Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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USPS results over 2017:
"The Postal Service reported a loss of $2.7 billion for the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30. That was better than a $5.6 billion loss in the prior year but was mainly due to fluctuations in interest rates that reduced workers’ compensation expenses."
source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-postal-service-marks-11-straight-years-of-financial-loss
Canada post results over 2017:
"The Canada Post Group of Companies reported a profit of $144 million for 2017, up from $81 million in 2016, as its parcel business grew with the popularity of online shopping.
The improved profit at the company which includes Canada Post, Purolator and SCI Group came as revenue from operations totalled nearly $8.23 billion in last year, up from $7.88 billion in 2016."
source: https://www.thestar.com/business/2018/05/03/canada-post-group-reports-2017-profit-up-as-parcel-business-swells.html
So that means - in my opinion at least - that Canada Post's rates are more in line with the actual costs, or USPS is heavily subsidized as it is unable to do the job for the price it asks for the delivered service...
So perhaps if USPS raised the letter rate to 65 cents which would more or less be equal to 85 cents Canadian, it would be more profitable (or less unprofitable if you prefer that)
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"...mainly due to fluctuations in interest rates that reduced workers’ compensation expenses..."
Hi Jansimon,
I do not know about the Canadian PO but I disagree with your opinion about the USPS.
The USPS losses are (and have been) largely an accounting aberration. The USPS is forced (via legislation) to account for future employees (past and present!) health insurance coverage costs on their books. This heavily skews the red ink, I know of no other company or organization that carries the future cost of a benefit on their current books.
If you back out the future cost of health insurance from their numbers they would be showing a profit. A number of years ago the US Congress, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make the USPS a ‘standalone’ organization. Part of this splitting off from the rest of the federal government accounting was that they also required the USPS for carry future anticipated health insurance costs. The USPS has not shown a profit since that legislation passed.
The intent of the legislation was that the USPS would operate on its own profit and losses (it was profitable at the time) and the USPS supported the idea at the time. But the Congress surprised the USPS with the requirement to carry the future insurance costs on their books.
Don
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Hi Don,
Thank you for this clarification. Sometimes this type of decisions defy my common sense. I think it's because I did not study economics or business administration and therefore do not understand the witchcraft commonly called accounting.
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Don's explanation is correct, and the accompanying statements are correct also: USPS is the sole entity PRE-paying health and insurance costs well into the future. Most companies don't cover the current liabilities, much less their future ones, but USPS does.
A much smaller expense, but not a trifle, is the liability some of its workers amassed while they were employed by the DOD. Those have also been transferred to the USPS.
I wonder how Ken's currency exchange generally applies in determining cost of international mail. USPS dictates cost to users for international postage rates, but how is USPS's cost affected by what Canada Poste pays in petrol or personnel or even in the vagaries of the exchange rate?
David
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"But for accounting purposes they must estimate the future liability over a 75 year period (according to OPM financial accounting guidelines). "
So Chris, if I read you correctly, you're saying the USPS prefunds a new entrant's future liability for 75 years? or is that wrong?
or do i have this wrong?
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Personally, I find this anti union sentiment offensive. I however refuse to take the bait.
Bruce
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Chris,
so I understand, you said:
"So they would have prepaid 45 years of benefits in 2012, but then have to make payments for another 2 years of benefits in 2018 to account for the change. "
which means that in a single year, USPS would pay in the equivalent of this specific employee's 45 years of benefits. is that correct.
dont go too far further than yes/no,
Bruce,
this is not anti-unionism; these are Congressional rules; what the unions want isn't really the issue here. I, for one, am merely trying to understand Chris' explanation of something I thought I already understood, and now I'm not sure, mostly because I haven't yet mastered what Chris is saying.
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I understand your explanation Chris, and it is well laid out.
You come to a conclusion, however for which you provide no explanation or evidence. I am not disputing or agreeing with your conclusion but it is hard to do either without more data.
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04:05:33pm
To turn this thread away from USPS profitability and pension liabilities, and back to an explanation of the rates that Dave asked for:
"Before I listed a large batch of covers I package them as efficiently as possible in an oversized envelope. it measured 10.5"L x 10"W x 1"H and weighed 335g.
The cost to mail within Canada was $16.85 (including fuel surcharge, taxes and other government money grabs).
The cost to the USA was $11.52 all in.
I'm gobsmacked and can't seem to find any logic to this (if there is any...)"
I have lived with this situation for 20 years of mail order, so, while not defending Canada Post rates, I can explain some of it.
The rates Dave quotes are a bit of comparing "apples and oranges".
Dave doesn't mention a destination, so I reproduced his parcels based on Ontario to Vancouver BC and to California.
To Vancouver:
Regular Parcel : Postage $17.16 (including fuel surcharge, which is just an automatic postage rate hike for fuel costs higher than the benchmark upon which the postage rates were originally based. If you are interested in this calculation, it is available on the Canada Post website.)
Tax, in this case GST: 5% or $0.86
Total C$18.02
To USA:
This is where it gets interesting. Yes, Dave is right that this parcel can be sent anywhere in the USA (including Alaska, Hawaii, PR, American Samoa etc) for C$11.52 (no sales taxes on international postage rates), but that is at the airmail SMALL PACKET rate. There is nothing wrong with this rate, we use it every day, but it is not the same level of service as parcel rates. There is no tracking, and it takes longer.
SMALL PACKET is an international rate that I believe is part of the UPU inter-country negotiations. There is no equivalent service within Canada.
To properly compare products, one has to look at the other rates to the USA
TRACKED PACKET: This is basically the same as SMALL PACKET, but does provide a tracking number. Again this rate is good for anywhere within the USA. About the same speed as SMALL PACKET (usually 7-10 days business days, except for holdups in US Customs)
Cost $19.52
EXPEDITED PARCEL: This is the closest equivalent to the within-Canada parcel rate. Ontario to California is indicated as 5 business days (again, subject to Customs delays) at a cost of $22.43. This rate IS dependent on the final destination.
So, bottom line, for equivalent service, there is not a lot of difference in parcel rates, given an equivalent distance. What IS different is the availability of the cheaper SMALL PACKET rate, which does not exist within the country.
To save a lot of money shipping within Canada, use large envelopes (10' x 13" are great), keep the weight under 500 grams, and the thickness under 2cm (must fit through the slot in the Post office template.) That is the maximum First Class letter size and will only cost you $5.05 in postage. Buy your postage at a discount, and your cost of mailing will be about $3.00-$3.50. Can't complain about that!
Roy
P.S. to Dave: Your error was that 1 inch thickness (2.54 cm). If you had flattened it down to 1.99 cm you would have been ok at the letter rate.)
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Thanks Roy.
Basically, I think you are confirming "it's complicated" moreso than "equitable".
An interesting thing on the Height portion of the equation. Every private postal outlet (from the corner bodega to the mall Shoppers Drug Mart) there is a noticeable difference in measuring and pricing. I suspect that the smaller family-run outlets depend on selling stamps to enhance revenue, as they always seem annoyed when I say I already have stamps - and they measure quickly with a clothing-tape (undoubtedly erring on the "plus" side). I have mentioned that there is air in the envelope and if they press down they will see it is less-high, but they are disinclined to do so.
So, I guess it is all about finding one place that is honest, and willing to work with you. I'm going to take the package under consideration to a couple places, and try some different packaging (e.g. heavily taping across the width and length to reduce the height).
I'll publish what I find.
Dave.
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06:09:05pm
If you are mailing at the letter rate, they should not be using the tape measure, they should use the "Domestic Mail Sizing Template". A 10" x 13" envelope is below the maximum size for letter mail -- the only issue is the thickness. And I agree, if they try to measure the thickness with a tape, it's inaccurate. The template has a slot. If it fits through, its legal. Make them use the template. Here it is:
You can order your own template. They were $7.95 last time I bought one.
Also, if you use your own postage, and it's a legal 1st class letter, you don't need the postal clerks. Just put your stamps on it and drop it in the mail slot. Get some free "First Class" stickers to be sure, or just write "First Class" on the envelope in big letters.
Here is the current first class rate chart:
Roy
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"SMALL PACKET is an international rate that I believe is part of the UPU inter-country negotiations. There is no equivalent service within Canada."
Americans get screwed by one of these deals too... there is an agreement with China that allows Chinese sellers on eBay to mail faulty junk to US addresses, cheaper than an American can mail the same package to US addresses!
I once bought three car phone chargers on eBay, about $6 including postage. Package came from China. None of them worked! I email the seller who cheerfully told me to return at my expense for a full refund. I take package to the post office and found that it would cost me more than my entire payment to send same package back to China. It was cheaper to just throw them away.
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USPS cut a deal with China and a few other south east Asian countries, it is called 'ePacket'. I have written about it before, but anyone who has ever purchased things on Amazon has seen it in action. Computer cables delivered to your door for under $1, two coin batteries deliver to your door for 60 cents.
Here is part of an article from Forbes
"In 2011, the U.S. Postal Service made special agreements with the national postal carriers of China and Hong Kong (and subsequently South Korea and Singapore) to allow tracking-enabled packages not exceeding 36" or weighing over 4.4 pounds to be sent to the U.S. for extremely low rates. They called this shipping option the ePacket, and the rates are so low that it's cheaper to ship small parcels from China to an American city than it is to send that same parcel domestically....
As Amazon's Vice President of Global Policy Paul Misener pointed out:
"The cost to ship a one-pound package from South Carolina to New York City would run nearly $6; from Beijing to NYC: $3.66."
While sending that same one-pound package from New York City back to Beijing via USPS International Mail would cost in the ballpark of $50.
This state of affairs also makes Chinese merchants virtually immune to returns from U.S. customers, turning international e-commerce into a one-way street."
Don
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Before I listed a large batch of covers I package them as efficiently as possible in an oversized envelope. it measured 10.5"L x 10"W x 1"H and weighed 335g.
The cost to mail within Canada was $16.85 (including fuel surcharge, taxes and other government money grabs).
The cost to the USA was $11.52 all in.
I'm gobsmacked and can't seem to find any logic to this (if there is any...)
Could this actually be possible? Am I missing something?
If anyone has some insight I'd be happy to receive it as I may have a few other big offerings like this available over the next couple months.
Thanks, Dave.
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Dave
Goto https://www.canadapost.ca/cpotools/apps/far/business/farLetter?execution=e2s1
You can calculate the rate.
I do not think the rate to the USA is correct.
Doug
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Thanks Doug.
That was the site I was using and when I entered the data (making sure it was categorized as a "parcel" not a "letter") I got the exact same result.
I'm totally mystified!
Anyone else feel like testing it out?
Many thanks, Dave.
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Dave
I calculated from your postal code to California and the cost is $11.52.
From you place to my place the cost is $14.05.
Doug
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Thanks again Doug, but now even weirder...
You confirmed the cost of $11.52 (to California) vs the same amount when I used Florida. I seem to recall from another situation where I requested a quote in advance of listing that I was told it didn't matter where I was mailing in the US, it would be the same amount. So that is consistent.
But I assumed the same would apply to mailing within Canada. I used Vancouver (the farthest point domestically) which again gave me $16.85 - but sure enough, using Hamilton it did recalculate at $14.05 as you noted.
So now I'm even more miffed at Canada Post - and don't understand the logic...
$11.52 to California (a 5.5 hour flight from home - not including clearing extra time with Canadian/US Customs...).
$14.05 to Hamilton (a 40 minute domestic flight).
$16.85 to Vancouver (a 4.5 hour domestic flight).
SO MY CONCLUSION IS CANADIANS SELLING ON SOR CAN DO SO MORE INEXPENSIVELY FOR SMALLER "LETTERS" SHIPPED TO OTHER CANADIANS, BUT LARGER "PACKAGES" ARE MORE COST-EFFECTIVE (20-30% LESS) IF OFFERED ONLY TO AMERICANS.
Not sure it makes any sense whatsoever!
Dave.
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
I came across this insane situation myself a few days ago.
I was selling a book, to ensure that I quoted the correct postage I packed it and took it into the post office. Prices (rounded) from Vancouver, Canada were as follows:
Ontario, Canada - $19
Florida, USA - $17
UK - $21
Australia $22
I was convinced that the post office clerk had confused the US and Canadian rates but she assured me that those were correct. So not only was it cheaper to mail it to the most distant US location than elsewhere in Canada, but it didn't actually cost much more to send it to the UK or Australia (admittedly the last two are surface mail).
What is especially galling is that not only do us Canadians have to put up with this gouging, but we also have to put up with sub-3rd world service. International mail from most locations (other than the US) during the first four months of this year was being delayed for 2 to 3 months.
I was expecting a number of registered items during January and February from various places in Europe, I could track these on the foreign postal authority web sites until landing in Canada, In all cases delivery to Canada took 2 to 4 days. Once in Canada it is no longer possible to track foreign registered items. It took TWO MONTHS for me to receive the first item. I had long since given it up as lost. Complaints filed with Canada Post were completely ineffective.
For example an item sent from Israel via Registered Priority mail was posted on Jan 20th, tracking it on the Israeli Post site showed it had arrived in Canada on Jan 23, unable to track it on the Canada post site, when it had not arrived by mid-February I called Canada Post and was told by the Canada Post employee that it is not Canada Post's problem and that the sender needs to file a claim with Israeli post. The item, which had arrived in Canada Jan 23rd, was eventually delivered to me on the April 17th!!
Clive
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Hi (lemaven) & Everyone;
First of all the Canadian dollar compared to the US dollar is; C$1.00 = US$0.77. That means Canada Post will need nearly 25% more money for gasoline to deliver the mails, and 25% more for employee salaries, assuming equally overpaid postal workers like here in the states. US bureau of Labor statistics: US postal employees average $25.41 per hour.
Secondly more Canadians live in rural areas than in the states. However, I don't know the Canadian situation as regards RFD (rural free delivery). Altho the USPS is trying to eliminate RFD in the US by having 10-20 neighborhood residents use a central row of mailboxes grouped together on long planks attached to many posts.
A first class letter in the US is 50¢, and in Canada it is 85¢. This sounds just about right based on the value of the C$ compared to the US$ and considering that Canada is a much more rural nation than the US.
I'm sure Roy or some other more knowledgeable Canadians will correct me harshly if I'm wrong?
Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
USPS results over 2017:
"The Postal Service reported a loss of $2.7 billion for the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30. That was better than a $5.6 billion loss in the prior year but was mainly due to fluctuations in interest rates that reduced workers’ compensation expenses."
source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-postal-service-marks-11-straight-years-of-financial-loss
Canada post results over 2017:
"The Canada Post Group of Companies reported a profit of $144 million for 2017, up from $81 million in 2016, as its parcel business grew with the popularity of online shopping.
The improved profit at the company which includes Canada Post, Purolator and SCI Group came as revenue from operations totalled nearly $8.23 billion in last year, up from $7.88 billion in 2016."
source: https://www.thestar.com/business/2018/05/03/canada-post-group-reports-2017-profit-up-as-parcel-business-swells.html
So that means - in my opinion at least - that Canada Post's rates are more in line with the actual costs, or USPS is heavily subsidized as it is unable to do the job for the price it asks for the delivered service...
So perhaps if USPS raised the letter rate to 65 cents which would more or less be equal to 85 cents Canadian, it would be more profitable (or less unprofitable if you prefer that)
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
"...mainly due to fluctuations in interest rates that reduced workers’ compensation expenses..."
Hi Jansimon,
I do not know about the Canadian PO but I disagree with your opinion about the USPS.
The USPS losses are (and have been) largely an accounting aberration. The USPS is forced (via legislation) to account for future employees (past and present!) health insurance coverage costs on their books. This heavily skews the red ink, I know of no other company or organization that carries the future cost of a benefit on their current books.
If you back out the future cost of health insurance from their numbers they would be showing a profit. A number of years ago the US Congress, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make the USPS a ‘standalone’ organization. Part of this splitting off from the rest of the federal government accounting was that they also required the USPS for carry future anticipated health insurance costs. The USPS has not shown a profit since that legislation passed.
The intent of the legislation was that the USPS would operate on its own profit and losses (it was profitable at the time) and the USPS supported the idea at the time. But the Congress surprised the USPS with the requirement to carry the future insurance costs on their books.
Don
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Hi Don,
Thank you for this clarification. Sometimes this type of decisions defy my common sense. I think it's because I did not study economics or business administration and therefore do not understand the witchcraft commonly called accounting.
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Don's explanation is correct, and the accompanying statements are correct also: USPS is the sole entity PRE-paying health and insurance costs well into the future. Most companies don't cover the current liabilities, much less their future ones, but USPS does.
A much smaller expense, but not a trifle, is the liability some of its workers amassed while they were employed by the DOD. Those have also been transferred to the USPS.
I wonder how Ken's currency exchange generally applies in determining cost of international mail. USPS dictates cost to users for international postage rates, but how is USPS's cost affected by what Canada Poste pays in petrol or personnel or even in the vagaries of the exchange rate?
David
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
"But for accounting purposes they must estimate the future liability over a 75 year period (according to OPM financial accounting guidelines). "
So Chris, if I read you correctly, you're saying the USPS prefunds a new entrant's future liability for 75 years? or is that wrong?
or do i have this wrong?
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07:50:46pm
re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Personally, I find this anti union sentiment offensive. I however refuse to take the bait.
Bruce
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Chris,
so I understand, you said:
"So they would have prepaid 45 years of benefits in 2012, but then have to make payments for another 2 years of benefits in 2018 to account for the change. "
which means that in a single year, USPS would pay in the equivalent of this specific employee's 45 years of benefits. is that correct.
dont go too far further than yes/no,
Bruce,
this is not anti-unionism; these are Congressional rules; what the unions want isn't really the issue here. I, for one, am merely trying to understand Chris' explanation of something I thought I already understood, and now I'm not sure, mostly because I haven't yet mastered what Chris is saying.
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
I understand your explanation Chris, and it is well laid out.
You come to a conclusion, however for which you provide no explanation or evidence. I am not disputing or agreeing with your conclusion but it is hard to do either without more data.
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07 Jun 2018
04:05:33pm
re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
To turn this thread away from USPS profitability and pension liabilities, and back to an explanation of the rates that Dave asked for:
"Before I listed a large batch of covers I package them as efficiently as possible in an oversized envelope. it measured 10.5"L x 10"W x 1"H and weighed 335g.
The cost to mail within Canada was $16.85 (including fuel surcharge, taxes and other government money grabs).
The cost to the USA was $11.52 all in.
I'm gobsmacked and can't seem to find any logic to this (if there is any...)"
I have lived with this situation for 20 years of mail order, so, while not defending Canada Post rates, I can explain some of it.
The rates Dave quotes are a bit of comparing "apples and oranges".
Dave doesn't mention a destination, so I reproduced his parcels based on Ontario to Vancouver BC and to California.
To Vancouver:
Regular Parcel : Postage $17.16 (including fuel surcharge, which is just an automatic postage rate hike for fuel costs higher than the benchmark upon which the postage rates were originally based. If you are interested in this calculation, it is available on the Canada Post website.)
Tax, in this case GST: 5% or $0.86
Total C$18.02
To USA:
This is where it gets interesting. Yes, Dave is right that this parcel can be sent anywhere in the USA (including Alaska, Hawaii, PR, American Samoa etc) for C$11.52 (no sales taxes on international postage rates), but that is at the airmail SMALL PACKET rate. There is nothing wrong with this rate, we use it every day, but it is not the same level of service as parcel rates. There is no tracking, and it takes longer.
SMALL PACKET is an international rate that I believe is part of the UPU inter-country negotiations. There is no equivalent service within Canada.
To properly compare products, one has to look at the other rates to the USA
TRACKED PACKET: This is basically the same as SMALL PACKET, but does provide a tracking number. Again this rate is good for anywhere within the USA. About the same speed as SMALL PACKET (usually 7-10 days business days, except for holdups in US Customs)
Cost $19.52
EXPEDITED PARCEL: This is the closest equivalent to the within-Canada parcel rate. Ontario to California is indicated as 5 business days (again, subject to Customs delays) at a cost of $22.43. This rate IS dependent on the final destination.
So, bottom line, for equivalent service, there is not a lot of difference in parcel rates, given an equivalent distance. What IS different is the availability of the cheaper SMALL PACKET rate, which does not exist within the country.
To save a lot of money shipping within Canada, use large envelopes (10' x 13" are great), keep the weight under 500 grams, and the thickness under 2cm (must fit through the slot in the Post office template.) That is the maximum First Class letter size and will only cost you $5.05 in postage. Buy your postage at a discount, and your cost of mailing will be about $3.00-$3.50. Can't complain about that!
Roy
P.S. to Dave: Your error was that 1 inch thickness (2.54 cm). If you had flattened it down to 1.99 cm you would have been ok at the letter rate.)
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
Thanks Roy.
Basically, I think you are confirming "it's complicated" moreso than "equitable".
An interesting thing on the Height portion of the equation. Every private postal outlet (from the corner bodega to the mall Shoppers Drug Mart) there is a noticeable difference in measuring and pricing. I suspect that the smaller family-run outlets depend on selling stamps to enhance revenue, as they always seem annoyed when I say I already have stamps - and they measure quickly with a clothing-tape (undoubtedly erring on the "plus" side). I have mentioned that there is air in the envelope and if they press down they will see it is less-high, but they are disinclined to do so.
So, I guess it is all about finding one place that is honest, and willing to work with you. I'm going to take the package under consideration to a couple places, and try some different packaging (e.g. heavily taping across the width and length to reduce the height).
I'll publish what I find.
Dave.
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07 Jun 2018
06:09:05pm
re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
If you are mailing at the letter rate, they should not be using the tape measure, they should use the "Domestic Mail Sizing Template". A 10" x 13" envelope is below the maximum size for letter mail -- the only issue is the thickness. And I agree, if they try to measure the thickness with a tape, it's inaccurate. The template has a slot. If it fits through, its legal. Make them use the template. Here it is:
You can order your own template. They were $7.95 last time I bought one.
Also, if you use your own postage, and it's a legal 1st class letter, you don't need the postal clerks. Just put your stamps on it and drop it in the mail slot. Get some free "First Class" stickers to be sure, or just write "First Class" on the envelope in big letters.
Here is the current first class rate chart:
Roy
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
"SMALL PACKET is an international rate that I believe is part of the UPU inter-country negotiations. There is no equivalent service within Canada."
Americans get screwed by one of these deals too... there is an agreement with China that allows Chinese sellers on eBay to mail faulty junk to US addresses, cheaper than an American can mail the same package to US addresses!
I once bought three car phone chargers on eBay, about $6 including postage. Package came from China. None of them worked! I email the seller who cheerfully told me to return at my expense for a full refund. I take package to the post office and found that it would cost me more than my entire payment to send same package back to China. It was cheaper to just throw them away.
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re: How does Canada Post justify discrimination against Canadian buyers???
USPS cut a deal with China and a few other south east Asian countries, it is called 'ePacket'. I have written about it before, but anyone who has ever purchased things on Amazon has seen it in action. Computer cables delivered to your door for under $1, two coin batteries deliver to your door for 60 cents.
Here is part of an article from Forbes
"In 2011, the U.S. Postal Service made special agreements with the national postal carriers of China and Hong Kong (and subsequently South Korea and Singapore) to allow tracking-enabled packages not exceeding 36" or weighing over 4.4 pounds to be sent to the U.S. for extremely low rates. They called this shipping option the ePacket, and the rates are so low that it's cheaper to ship small parcels from China to an American city than it is to send that same parcel domestically....
As Amazon's Vice President of Global Policy Paul Misener pointed out:
"The cost to ship a one-pound package from South Carolina to New York City would run nearly $6; from Beijing to NYC: $3.66."
While sending that same one-pound package from New York City back to Beijing via USPS International Mail would cost in the ballpark of $50.
This state of affairs also makes Chinese merchants virtually immune to returns from U.S. customers, turning international e-commerce into a one-way street."
Don
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