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General Philatelic/Identify This? : France #7,47 or ??????

 

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Soundcrest
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31 May 2018
04:37:52am

Auctions - Approvals
Hi,

I currently have this listed at auction as a France #47. Originally I had it as a #7 but Roy said it was a #47. With not being an expert on early France I deferred to him. Another collector has now said he thinks it IS a 47 or perhaps French Colonies. So I ask the question - what do you think this is? Thanks

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Greg

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michael78651

31 May 2018
08:37:03am
re: France #7,47 or ??????

I believe it's a France Scott #47, lithographed printing (dashes on the cheek and neck rather than dots as seen on the typographed #7 and typographed French Colonies #14).

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nigelc
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31 May 2018
08:44:55am
re: France #7,47 or ??????

Hi Greg,

I'd like to know too as I've never been clear about identifying these stamps. Happy

The three candidates seem to be:

France Sc. #7 orange on yellowish - Typo

France Sc. #47 orange on yellowish - Litho

French Colonies #14 orange on yellowish - Typo

So, if it's Litho it's France Sc. #47.

However, if it's Typo I suggest it's probably French Colonies Sc. #14 (given the huge different in prices).

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nigelc
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31 May 2018
08:47:58am
re: France #7,47 or ??????

I see Michael has already posted. Happy

Could you show us a pair of typo and litho Ceres stamps (not necessarily this value) so we could see the difference more clearly?

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

31 May 2018
09:00:09am
re: France #7,47 or ??????

https://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32456&SearchTerms=Ceres

Don

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froland

31 May 2018
11:04:51am
re: France #7,47 or ??????

Despite the dashes on the cheek and neck, I would lean away from France 47 as the stamp does not display one of the indispensable field marks for the Bordeaux issues. Note how the wheat sheaves protrude at the top of the head; on the Bordeaux issues the wheat sheaves do not prutrude as far. Compare, for example, Scott illustrations A7-A11 against A1, A13, A14.

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

31 May 2018
02:54:39pm
re: France #7,47 or ??????

I tend to lean on a French Colonies.
rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
smauggie
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31 May 2018
08:03:43pm
re: France #7,47 or ??????

The problem is that if we have determined that the printing method is lithography (lines rather than dots) then it must be a France #7. French Colonies stamps were all printed via typography.

https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=8064

For my eyes, the image is not clear/large enough for me to tell the difference.

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michael78651

31 May 2018
11:41:45pm
re: France #7,47 or ??????

You have it backwards. #7 is typographed, not lithographed.

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

01 Jun 2018
02:20:42am
re: France #7,47 or ??????

The forty centimes imperf Ceres issue is one of the hardest stamps to identify.
The scan is not clear enough to tell if there are dots or just short dashes, so a better scan would be most helpful. From what I see I'm leaning toward France #7

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
froland

01 Jun 2018
12:37:56pm
re: France #7,47 or ??????

First, I would like to thank AntoniusRa for weighing in. I typically consult his on-line reference collection several times a week to resolve thorny identification questions. I am wondering if problems in identifying Bordeaux issue stamps stem from the field marks that Scott chooses to focus on. Referring to Antonius Ra’s on-line collection and to the link provided by smauggie, it is clear that the above stamp is not France 47; the wheat sheaves protrude at the top of the head; they are close cropped on Bordeaux issue stamps. Assuming that the above stamp is genuine, the choice is between France 7 (1850 or 1862 reimpression) and French Colonies 14, both of which are typographed and, if I am not mistaken, printed from the same plates. I believe the difference comes down to the shade. For France 7, Yvert lists 3 different colors in addition to the 1862 reimpression; Maury, 6. For Fr Colonies 14, Yvert lists orange and saumon. Using Antonius Ra’s collection as a guide, I would lean toward French Colonies 14, but given the range of shades the question remains open. The overarching questions that I always stumble over concern the distinction between the original issues, the 1860s re-impressions and the French Colonies look-likes. (Jim Jackson’s Big Blue entries provide some guidance in recognizing these distinctions.) Using the wheat sheaf field mark (Ruth and Gardner Brown, The Bordeaux Issue of 1870-1871, New York: French and Colonies Philatelic Society, 1981, p. 3-5) it has always seemed relatively easy to recognize the Bordeaux issue.

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Soundcrest
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04 Jun 2018
06:55:12am

Auctions - Approvals
re: France #7,47 or ??????

Here is a 1200dpi scan. Could this possibly be a cut square? I ask as the paper seems stiff, but not knowing much about early France this could be the type of paper it was printed on.

Greg

Image Not Found

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

04 Jun 2018
10:03:21pm
re: France #7,47 or ??????

It looks like the stamp might have been re-backed. Look at the whole top edge, the top right and the bottom left corner. I bet the reverse of the stamp is quite clean and White. I still cannot tell whether it is France $7 or French Colonies #14. Considering the difference in values I would have to lean to ti being the French colonies issue.

froland I'm glad to hear that you find my site helpful. I wish there had been such a place that I could reference in my earlier collecting years. I can only hope that there are many others collectors that can see the value of it with there collecting pursuits.


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Author/Postings
Members Picture
Soundcrest

31 May 2018
04:37:52am

Auctions - Approvals

Hi,

I currently have this listed at auction as a France #47. Originally I had it as a #7 but Roy said it was a #47. With not being an expert on early France I deferred to him. Another collector has now said he thinks it IS a 47 or perhaps French Colonies. So I ask the question - what do you think this is? Thanks

Image Not Found

Greg

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"Stamps Postcards Sheet Music Books and More! See something you like contact me!"

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michael78651

31 May 2018
08:37:03am

re: France #7,47 or ??????

I believe it's a France Scott #47, lithographed printing (dashes on the cheek and neck rather than dots as seen on the typographed #7 and typographed French Colonies #14).

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this post
Members Picture
nigelc

31 May 2018
08:44:55am

re: France #7,47 or ??????

Hi Greg,

I'd like to know too as I've never been clear about identifying these stamps. Happy

The three candidates seem to be:

France Sc. #7 orange on yellowish - Typo

France Sc. #47 orange on yellowish - Litho

French Colonies #14 orange on yellowish - Typo

So, if it's Litho it's France Sc. #47.

However, if it's Typo I suggest it's probably French Colonies Sc. #14 (given the huge different in prices).

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nigelc

31 May 2018
08:47:58am

re: France #7,47 or ??????

I see Michael has already posted. Happy

Could you show us a pair of typo and litho Ceres stamps (not necessarily this value) so we could see the difference more clearly?

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this post
Members Picture
51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
31 May 2018
09:00:09am

re: France #7,47 or ??????

https://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32456&SearchTerms=Ceres

Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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froland

31 May 2018
11:04:51am

re: France #7,47 or ??????

Despite the dashes on the cheek and neck, I would lean away from France 47 as the stamp does not display one of the indispensable field marks for the Bordeaux issues. Note how the wheat sheaves protrude at the top of the head; on the Bordeaux issues the wheat sheaves do not prutrude as far. Compare, for example, Scott illustrations A7-A11 against A1, A13, A14.

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Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
31 May 2018
02:54:39pm

re: France #7,47 or ??????

I tend to lean on a French Colonies.
rrr...

Like
Login to Like
this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
smauggie

31 May 2018
08:03:43pm

re: France #7,47 or ??????

The problem is that if we have determined that the printing method is lithography (lines rather than dots) then it must be a France #7. French Colonies stamps were all printed via typography.

https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=8064

For my eyes, the image is not clear/large enough for me to tell the difference.

Like
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this post

canalzonepostalhisto ...
michael78651

31 May 2018
11:41:45pm

re: France #7,47 or ??????

You have it backwards. #7 is typographed, not lithographed.

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this post
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
01 Jun 2018
02:20:42am

re: France #7,47 or ??????

The forty centimes imperf Ceres issue is one of the hardest stamps to identify.
The scan is not clear enough to tell if there are dots or just short dashes, so a better scan would be most helpful. From what I see I'm leaning toward France #7

Like
Login to Like
this post

mitch.seymourfamily. ...
froland

01 Jun 2018
12:37:56pm

re: France #7,47 or ??????

First, I would like to thank AntoniusRa for weighing in. I typically consult his on-line reference collection several times a week to resolve thorny identification questions. I am wondering if problems in identifying Bordeaux issue stamps stem from the field marks that Scott chooses to focus on. Referring to Antonius Ra’s on-line collection and to the link provided by smauggie, it is clear that the above stamp is not France 47; the wheat sheaves protrude at the top of the head; they are close cropped on Bordeaux issue stamps. Assuming that the above stamp is genuine, the choice is between France 7 (1850 or 1862 reimpression) and French Colonies 14, both of which are typographed and, if I am not mistaken, printed from the same plates. I believe the difference comes down to the shade. For France 7, Yvert lists 3 different colors in addition to the 1862 reimpression; Maury, 6. For Fr Colonies 14, Yvert lists orange and saumon. Using Antonius Ra’s collection as a guide, I would lean toward French Colonies 14, but given the range of shades the question remains open. The overarching questions that I always stumble over concern the distinction between the original issues, the 1860s re-impressions and the French Colonies look-likes. (Jim Jackson’s Big Blue entries provide some guidance in recognizing these distinctions.) Using the wheat sheaf field mark (Ruth and Gardner Brown, The Bordeaux Issue of 1870-1871, New York: French and Colonies Philatelic Society, 1981, p. 3-5) it has always seemed relatively easy to recognize the Bordeaux issue.

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like this post.
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Members Picture
Soundcrest

04 Jun 2018
06:55:12am

Auctions - Approvals

re: France #7,47 or ??????

Here is a 1200dpi scan. Could this possibly be a cut square? I ask as the paper seems stiff, but not knowing much about early France this could be the type of paper it was printed on.

Greg

Image Not Found

Like
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this post

"Stamps Postcards Sheet Music Books and More! See something you like contact me!"

www.ebay.com/str/sou ...
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
04 Jun 2018
10:03:21pm

re: France #7,47 or ??????

It looks like the stamp might have been re-backed. Look at the whole top edge, the top right and the bottom left corner. I bet the reverse of the stamp is quite clean and White. I still cannot tell whether it is France $7 or French Colonies #14. Considering the difference in values I would have to lean to ti being the French colonies issue.

froland I'm glad to hear that you find my site helpful. I wish there had been such a place that I could reference in my earlier collecting years. I can only hope that there are many others collectors that can see the value of it with there collecting pursuits.


Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

mitch.seymourfamily. ...
        

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