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General Philatelic/Identify This? : A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

 

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lemaven
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16 May 2018
09:23:13am
First up, can I safely assume the typology used is DOMINANT-SECONDARY? So red-brown is closest to red but has a (slight?) brownish hue? Below are some examples (I adjusted the saturation a bit to make the red hues "pop" more.

Image Not Found

Accordingly, I would classify the top two stamps as:
L #571 Red-Brown R #571a Brown Red
Confirmation? Thoughts?


It get's a bit dodgy with the bottom two as the overprints make the colors slightly more difficult to discern. Also, the printing seems different from the originals (the shading lines appear more clear and dominant). This makes me wonder if new stamps were printed then overprinted, rather than using existing old stock to overprint. Anyone with info on that possibility?

Regarding the colors:
R appears to match Brown-Red from above (although it seems almost Chocolate-Red to me) and so would be #631a.
L also seems to match Brown-Red closer than Red-Brown from above (although it isn't quite as reddish, almost more a lighter Brown-Red).


Anyone with really great color perception care to have a go at this?

Many thanks, Dave.
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pigdoc

16 May 2018
02:37:44pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Though, by no means, an expert on post-war German inks, I concur entirely with your color perceptions and assumptions. It was useful to me to compare the areas under the brim of the hat, in shadow. Lots of color saturation at that point!

However, I might caution against making color comparisons between mint and used stamps that have been soaked. Also, I think some watermark fluids alter the hue of some inks.

I like the BRAUNSCHweig '48 cancellation on the one on the lower R. And is that "peenEMUNDE" on the one in the upper L?

(I'm on the verge of diving into the early Cold War, behind-the-iron-curtain realm...)

Very nice posting, Dave!

-Paul

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jmh67

17 May 2018
05:31:20am
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Travem√ľnde, more likely, any apparent asymmetry ascribed to the presence of one of the early postcodes in front of the place name.

As for the colors, red-brown (rotbraun) id a reddish brown, and brown-red (braunrot) a brownish red.

-jmh

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pigdoc

17 May 2018
01:32:43pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

See, this is why single, loose stamps can be blase to a postal historian. The context of the stamp's usage is often partially or entirely missing.

Even so, the stamp with the ____EMUNDE cancelation would be unlikely to be Peenemunde, because that city was under Soviet control until 1952. So, I agree with jmh' attribution of the cancellation to Travemunde.

On the other hand, it sure is fun to make up stories about postal history items!

-Paul


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TuskenRaider
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17 May 2018
02:29:31pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Hi lemaven;

I think you have the "DOMINANT-SECONDARY", backwards tho....Red-Brown has the same meaning as Reddish-Brown, and means a Brown color that is a bit reddish. Brown-Red is a Red with just a dab of Brown.

Would somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, because that is the way I always understood those descriptions.

Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider

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lemaven
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17 May 2018
02:38:11pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Thanks for the responses. So my take-aways are:

1. I was wrong on the color definitions (per jmh67) - the order is Subdominant-Dominant (i.e. Red-Brown is Brown with a Reddish hue/tint).
2. So the top pair would be: L #571a Brown-Red ... R #571 Red-Brown? Can you confirm jmh67?
3. As per pigdoc, changing the saturation brings out more color variations in some (especially pre-war) issues, some of which may be due to light exposure, soaking methods, etc - but some members (with specialized catalogs and collecting knowledge) have indicated that color variations may not be uncommon.
4. Based on pigdoc's comment, I think I am starting to see why some people like to collect covers - they are obviously rich in information removed-stamps don't fully reveal. But in the absence of a full cover, I appreciate the discourse between pigdoc and jmh67 - trying to deduce origins (and stories of their past) from postmarks can be an interesting sideline. For example, I had no interest in Hungary until I found a postmark with a partial town name. After some research, I found it was a village where all their Jewish citizens were driven from town in a pogram in the early 1900s, and it resulted in the collapse and disappearance of that town.

Anyway, this started as a color-taxonomy question and has evolved to much more - thanks to the great intellects of Stamporama!!!

Cheers, Dave.

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pigdoc

17 May 2018
02:50:01pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

"I found it was a village where all their Jewish citizens were driven from town in a pogram in the early 1900s, and it resulted in the collapse and disappearance of that town.
"



So, could you determine how closely to the date of the pogrom the stamp was used (either by its issue date or the PM itself?

-Paul


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lemaven
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17 May 2018
04:03:02pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Hey Paul.

The few Hungary stamps I found with "interesting/significant" names/postmarks are somewhere in the numerous piles of sorted/unsorted "things to look at later", so I'm going by memory here...

But my recollection is that the postmarks were all around or before the start of WWI (so 1905-14). But I haven't dedicated any time as yet to tracking the history. I think I posted something about this on SOR a couple years ago (search under "The Hoard"), and was also interested in finding contemporaneous postmarks from towns near concentration camps. I believe I got one response, but it went nowhere.

It's a future project, but if any members are interested in this sort of thing I'd be happy to participate in a relevant discussion.

Dave.

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pigdoc

17 May 2018
05:44:56pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

VERY interesting, Dave.

I don't do much in the 1905-1914 era, so I'm not going to be much help. But, please start another thread on this...with a few images to lead it off!

I've been able to google up quite a bit of info for WWII POW camps, but I've never tried to do something like that for WWI.

Looking forward to the discussion!
-Paul

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

17 May 2018
07:14:05pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Making adjustments to the scan is not helping in determining the colors. I think there are more than two shades to this type. I would guess that Michel would have more listed. Neither of your stamps appears to be Red/Brown to me, Brown being the primary color.
I have what I think to be 3 different shades of this stamp in my collection. They can be seen Here: http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/europe/germany/germ19b.jpg
at the bottom of page. They appear to me as Brown/Red, Red and Red/Brown at bottom corner.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
michael78651

17 May 2018
10:55:58pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Mitchell is correct about Michel.

Michel lists the colors as:

#956a (dark)brown carmine
#956b brownish carmine with shades to brownish red

#A956 dark carmine brown with shades to light red brown

There are no separate listings for the shades. They are lumped in with the catalog number exactly as stated.

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Opa
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19 May 2018
02:34:15am
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

A note on the "Michel" color description! Michel likes to change the color description every few years,

Michel Special 1993:
Image Not Found

Michel Special 2013 :
Image Not Found

Michel Standard 2016/2017 :
Image Not Found

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jmh67

19 May 2018
02:10:37pm
re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

It seems that the authorities haven't managed to decide how to call the different shades of this stamp, but one thing seems clear: all variations notwithstanding there are two distinct colors, which could be roughly translated to brown-red (Michel No. 956 of 1947) and red-brown (Michel No. A956 of 1948). Neither of them seems to be rare, although the later issue is valued a little higher. It appears from the scans that the stamps shown above are all various shades of brown-red.

-jmh


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Author/Postings
Members Picture
lemaven

16 May 2018
09:23:13am

First up, can I safely assume the typology used is DOMINANT-SECONDARY? So red-brown is closest to red but has a (slight?) brownish hue? Below are some examples (I adjusted the saturation a bit to make the red hues "pop" more.

Image Not Found

Accordingly, I would classify the top two stamps as:
L #571 Red-Brown R #571a Brown Red
Confirmation? Thoughts?


It get's a bit dodgy with the bottom two as the overprints make the colors slightly more difficult to discern. Also, the printing seems different from the originals (the shading lines appear more clear and dominant). This makes me wonder if new stamps were printed then overprinted, rather than using existing old stock to overprint. Anyone with info on that possibility?

Regarding the colors:
R appears to match Brown-Red from above (although it seems almost Chocolate-Red to me) and so would be #631a.
L also seems to match Brown-Red closer than Red-Brown from above (although it isn't quite as reddish, almost more a lighter Brown-Red).


Anyone with really great color perception care to have a go at this?

Many thanks, Dave.

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pigdoc

16 May 2018
02:37:44pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Though, by no means, an expert on post-war German inks, I concur entirely with your color perceptions and assumptions. It was useful to me to compare the areas under the brim of the hat, in shadow. Lots of color saturation at that point!

However, I might caution against making color comparisons between mint and used stamps that have been soaked. Also, I think some watermark fluids alter the hue of some inks.

I like the BRAUNSCHweig '48 cancellation on the one on the lower R. And is that "peenEMUNDE" on the one in the upper L?

(I'm on the verge of diving into the early Cold War, behind-the-iron-curtain realm...)

Very nice posting, Dave!

-Paul

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jmh67

17 May 2018
05:31:20am

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Travem√ľnde, more likely, any apparent asymmetry ascribed to the presence of one of the early postcodes in front of the place name.

As for the colors, red-brown (rotbraun) id a reddish brown, and brown-red (braunrot) a brownish red.

-jmh

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pigdoc

17 May 2018
01:32:43pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

See, this is why single, loose stamps can be blase to a postal historian. The context of the stamp's usage is often partially or entirely missing.

Even so, the stamp with the ____EMUNDE cancelation would be unlikely to be Peenemunde, because that city was under Soviet control until 1952. So, I agree with jmh' attribution of the cancellation to Travemunde.

On the other hand, it sure is fun to make up stories about postal history items!

-Paul


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Members Picture
TuskenRaider

17 May 2018
02:29:31pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Hi lemaven;

I think you have the "DOMINANT-SECONDARY", backwards tho....Red-Brown has the same meaning as Reddish-Brown, and means a Brown color that is a bit reddish. Brown-Red is a Red with just a dab of Brown.

Would somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, because that is the way I always understood those descriptions.

Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider

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www.webstore.com/sto ...
Members Picture
lemaven

17 May 2018
02:38:11pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Thanks for the responses. So my take-aways are:

1. I was wrong on the color definitions (per jmh67) - the order is Subdominant-Dominant (i.e. Red-Brown is Brown with a Reddish hue/tint).
2. So the top pair would be: L #571a Brown-Red ... R #571 Red-Brown? Can you confirm jmh67?
3. As per pigdoc, changing the saturation brings out more color variations in some (especially pre-war) issues, some of which may be due to light exposure, soaking methods, etc - but some members (with specialized catalogs and collecting knowledge) have indicated that color variations may not be uncommon.
4. Based on pigdoc's comment, I think I am starting to see why some people like to collect covers - they are obviously rich in information removed-stamps don't fully reveal. But in the absence of a full cover, I appreciate the discourse between pigdoc and jmh67 - trying to deduce origins (and stories of their past) from postmarks can be an interesting sideline. For example, I had no interest in Hungary until I found a postmark with a partial town name. After some research, I found it was a village where all their Jewish citizens were driven from town in a pogram in the early 1900s, and it resulted in the collapse and disappearance of that town.

Anyway, this started as a color-taxonomy question and has evolved to much more - thanks to the great intellects of Stamporama!!!

Cheers, Dave.

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pigdoc

17 May 2018
02:50:01pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

"I found it was a village where all their Jewish citizens were driven from town in a pogram in the early 1900s, and it resulted in the collapse and disappearance of that town.
"



So, could you determine how closely to the date of the pogrom the stamp was used (either by its issue date or the PM itself?

-Paul


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this post
Members Picture
lemaven

17 May 2018
04:03:02pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Hey Paul.

The few Hungary stamps I found with "interesting/significant" names/postmarks are somewhere in the numerous piles of sorted/unsorted "things to look at later", so I'm going by memory here...

But my recollection is that the postmarks were all around or before the start of WWI (so 1905-14). But I haven't dedicated any time as yet to tracking the history. I think I posted something about this on SOR a couple years ago (search under "The Hoard"), and was also interested in finding contemporaneous postmarks from towns near concentration camps. I believe I got one response, but it went nowhere.

It's a future project, but if any members are interested in this sort of thing I'd be happy to participate in a relevant discussion.

Dave.

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pigdoc

17 May 2018
05:44:56pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

VERY interesting, Dave.

I don't do much in the 1905-1914 era, so I'm not going to be much help. But, please start another thread on this...with a few images to lead it off!

I've been able to google up quite a bit of info for WWII POW camps, but I've never tried to do something like that for WWI.

Looking forward to the discussion!
-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
17 May 2018
07:14:05pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Making adjustments to the scan is not helping in determining the colors. I think there are more than two shades to this type. I would guess that Michel would have more listed. Neither of your stamps appears to be Red/Brown to me, Brown being the primary color.
I have what I think to be 3 different shades of this stamp in my collection. They can be seen Here: http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/europe/germany/germ19b.jpg
at the bottom of page. They appear to me as Brown/Red, Red and Red/Brown at bottom corner.

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mitch.seymourfamily. ...
michael78651

17 May 2018
10:55:58pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

Mitchell is correct about Michel.

Michel lists the colors as:

#956a (dark)brown carmine
#956b brownish carmine with shades to brownish red

#A956 dark carmine brown with shades to light red brown

There are no separate listings for the shades. They are lumped in with the catalog number exactly as stated.

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Members Picture
Opa

19 May 2018
02:34:15am

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

A note on the "Michel" color description! Michel likes to change the color description every few years,

Michel Special 1993:
Image Not Found

Michel Special 2013 :
Image Not Found

Michel Standard 2016/2017 :
Image Not Found

Like
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jmh67

19 May 2018
02:10:37pm

re: A colour question: Germany Red-Brown vs Brown-Red

It seems that the authorities haven't managed to decide how to call the different shades of this stamp, but one thing seems clear: all variations notwithstanding there are two distinct colors, which could be roughly translated to brown-red (Michel No. 956 of 1947) and red-brown (Michel No. A956 of 1948). Neither of them seems to be rare, although the later issue is valued a little higher. It appears from the scans that the stamps shown above are all various shades of brown-red.

-jmh


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