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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Approvals Disc. : Buying rules

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cougar
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04 May 2018
11:40:16am

Approvals
Came across an interesting case recently. I bought a set of stamps - Zambia - cattle set of 4. Since it takes time to get the stamps sometimes, I unknowingly bought the set two more times. Yesterday, after I had received the first two sets, I had seller #2 invoice me for $1.38, of which 0.38 was the set of stamps and the $1 was the postage.

Since I did not need the stamps any more, I paid seller #2 the 0.38 I owed him for the stamps and asked him to keep the stamps and not mail me anything. I marked the item as received.

Well guess what. The guy is unhappy! He somehow believes that mailing me the stamps is more beneficial to him. From that I can only surmise he has a pile of unfranked postage he is trying to put into use.

Can we have an adjustment to the rules where if the value of the stamps purchased is less than , say $1, the buyer is allowed to pay for the stamps only and walk away?

Supporting a transaction that clearly encourages a seller to break State rules is, I believe, not a mandate of this forum.
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michael78651
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04 May 2018
01:04:55pm
re: Buying rules

Well, as a buyer, you unilaterally changed the terms of the sale. The seller is right to be upset with that since the seller did not agree to the change in terms. Therefore, the original terms still exist.

Did you pay the seller through PayPal? If so, the seller received nothing of what you paid due to the PayPal fees, and may have gone into the negative as well.

The correct thing to do would have been to contact the seller and request that the sale be canceled. The seller can always relist the now unsold item, and not be out any PayPal fees.

The existing rules do permit buyers and sellers to handle situations like this, provided that both parties agree.

Michael
Auctioneer

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Soundcrest
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04 May 2018
01:09:46pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

Strange yes, unless you paid 38 cents via paypal which would be in all probability a zero for the seller. That would explain why he wanted the entire $1.38. Personally my invoices should have the ability to pay via PAYPAL when under $5 blacked out so to speak. I really cannot say for certain if this is the case but based on what goes on with my invoices I believe this to be so.

Greg

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michael78651
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04 May 2018
01:23:29pm
re: Buying rules

Quote:

"Personally my invoices should have the ability to pay via PAYPAL when under $5 blacked out so to speak."



That is correct. Buyers will not see the option to pay via PayPal if their purchase total from you is less than $5.00.

For those who do not know how to set that:

- Go to MEMBERS AREA
- click on SET UP PAYPAL TERMS

Instructions are on the page to help you complete the action.
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cougar
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04 May 2018
01:31:53pm

Approvals
re: Buying rules

I have to admit that I have no idea how PayPal works for small amounts like this 38 cent transaction. Yes, I used PayPal.

What I know is I pay CAD 1.20 to mail a small letter to the US and I cannot see how mailing a letter from the US to me will be cheaper than $1. In other words, I do not see how a seller paying proper postage will benefit from this transaction anyways.

I did pay the same seller for a similar 1 item transaction last month. No questions on his part, or an offer to hold the item till I get a few more stamps in the lot to make it worthwhile sending. Now again.

I am sure we, seller and buyer, should all have a satisfactory experience from a transaction. Maybe we can still look into the rules and tweak them up a bit to allow us to avoid headaches over peanuts?

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michael78651
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04 May 2018
02:31:42pm
re: Buying rules

Each transaction is separate from the other. It should not be presumed that because it worked in the past one way that it is all right to do it again the next time.

The following rule is found under the auction rules. It applies to auctions and approvals:

Quote:

"A5. Sellers and buyers may mutually agree to alter the terms and conditions of any purchase. However, unless mutually agreed upon in writing (private messages are acceptable) by both parties, the changes are not valid, and no assumption may be made by either party that the other agreed to the changes.
"


This rule gives wide latitude to both buyers and sellers to communicate with each other to mutually ensure that the results of each transaction are satisfactory to both parties.

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cougar
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04 May 2018
04:26:55pm

Approvals
re: Buying rules

Thanks Mike. This should work in theory but it still leaves the resolution of an issue (like this one) entirely in the hands of a seller, even if a buyer feels taken advantage of.

I probably have a number of sold items waiting for me to invoice the buyers for, and since the amounts are small, I have left them sitting till the buyer makes more purchases, or asks for an invoice. If neither of these two happens I will consider the sale void. It just makes sense to accommodate buyers and keep them all happy.

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Soundcrest
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04 May 2018
05:48:12pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

I like the way you think Cougar. Unfortunately I do not think Michael agrees. I know full well I have stamps sold that will never be paid for. It's just part of the business and as far as I am concerned, after 6 months they are now mine to do with as I please. I have quite a few in little envelopes myself. I have a person who told me he wanted to wait until he had enough to use PAYPAL to pay me. He has been working on that $5 for a year. By the time I invoice him the books are long gone, but I have the stamps.

Greg

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
04 May 2018
07:03:46pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

As Micheal says:-



both buyers and sellers to communicate with each other to mutually ensure that the results of each transaction are satisfactory to both parties.








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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
04 May 2018
07:42:34pm
re: Buying rules

i think we see that a unilateral decision to break a contract has made both buyer and seller unhappy

there is simply NO way in which we can make a system work to the satisfaction of all, especially when some choose to change the terms of said system.



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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
05 May 2018
03:54:19am
re: Buying rules

I am not usually a fan of TV shows other than News
or a Science channel, but one of my favorites is
"The People's Court" and it is amazing how many people
do not understand the essential rules of the
Commercial Code which I think is the same in both Canada
and the USA.
Deposits are not refundable unless agreed to in advance.
Buying a used auto is an "as is sale" and the occasional
"Lemon laws" only apply to new vehicles purchased from
a commercial dealer. Not in private sales.
Buying a ten or fifteen year old vehicle with close to
or in excess of 200,000 miles is not a guarantee of
lifetime free repairs.
When renting where a 30 day notice is required means
a full thirty days from the next "Rental Due Date"
preferably in writing not by voodoo hand signals.
And in must jurisdictions there are laws about informing
a vacating tennant the reason security is being held
in actual writing on paper listing the suspected damages
and estimated cost of repair. A salesman's "puffery"
(Verbal comments) are not warranties.
Trusting a person you only met on Craig's list or at an
auto shop's back room a few minutes before is not
a cause of action.
Unless you are a certified mechanic with six to ten years
experience spend a few dollars to hire a real automotive
technician (ASE certified) to examine a prospective
purchase before you sign the sales contract, not a few weeks
later when a knocking rod starts to wake the dead when you
drive past a cemetery.
Of course, as clearly stated here, one party to a contract
cannot unilaterally decide to change the terms of a contract
no matter how convenient it is. A thirty day warrantee
on an an auto is valid for precisely thirty daya, not
six months or the first oil change.
Your former friend calling you to get his or her money back
is not harassment, even if they get upset at your ducking
them and avoiding payment.
One more thing, when there is a written contract between
parties that clearly lay out the terms of the agreement,
prior oral statements, pinkie swearings or sincerely crossed
hearts are not admissible.

If more people understood these things and a few others
before they signed a written agreement, life would be much easier.
I am sure other members can add a few more miss-understood rules
As Judge Marilyn says; a loan of anything over a $1.oo should be
in writing,
even on a piece of toilet paper, in crayon,
if there is any hope of repayment

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smauggie
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05 May 2018
09:21:18am
re: Buying rules

As you say it was your mistake, I am not sure why you feel the seller must suffer the consequences of your mistake.

In my experience sellers are reasonable and may be inclined to work with you in situations like this if you talk to them about the situation.

Unilaterally changing the terms of sale is not your prerogative.

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cardstamp
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05 May 2018
07:54:54pm

Approvals
re: Buying rules

I cancel small sales for buyers all of the time - if the cost of the stamps is so much less than the shipping fee. I always give the buyer that option. Sometimes if they really want a stamp - they will pay the shipping fee but other times they take me up on my offer to just cancel the sale. That is the advantage of selling here over a commercial site - I have no fees to recover to cancel a sale here. Maybe I should not be so flexible ?

I did not know about the $5.00 paypal option - I may have to look into that but if a sale is at least 50 cents with the shipping fee - I tend to just about break even - with the PayPal fee.
Steve

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA
05 May 2018
08:17:43pm

Approvals
re: Buying rules

It is increasingly harder to buy here. Sellers often do not post enough for sale to make a purchase feasible. Usually I will go through approval books or auction listings the first time by writing it down on paper. Then I add it up to make sure there's enough to actually purchase. Too much work.

The one time I let my guard down, a brief look at the approval book was promising.. I now have a 36 cent purchase hanging over my head. I went to see today and same seller hasn't posted any new books. In the auctions he had three lots, totaling less than 50 cents if I did the "Buy It Now" button.

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michael78651
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05 May 2018
09:52:09pm
re: Buying rules

Quote:

"I cancel small sales for buyers all of the time - if the cost of the stamps is so much less than the shipping fee. I always give the buyer that option."



If the seller and buyer agree, the sale is canceled. No problem.

Quote:

"I did not know about the $5.00 paypal option"



The dollar amount is actually up to the seller to determine. It can be any amount you want. The $5.00 amount was quoted as what the seller posting the response uses. Mine is just $1.00, for example.

Quote:

"Maybe I should not be so flexible?"



Be as flexible as you want as long as any changes to your personal sales terms are agreed upon between you and your buyer. If the buyer doesn't agree with your suggested changes, then your original terms at the time of sale apply. The same applies if you do not agree with any changes in the terms suggested by your buyer.
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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
07 May 2018
11:44:31am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

Quote:

"It is increasingly harder to buy here. Sellers often do not post enough for sale to make a purchase feasible."




Maybe it is time to be thankful for the "professional" sellers?

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Soundcrest
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07 May 2018
12:20:17pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

I won't take the bait, tempting as it is.........

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musicman
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APS #213005
07 May 2018
08:53:43pm
re: Buying rules

Lol!!!


Way to take the high road, Greg....!


Laughing

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
08 May 2018
02:17:15am
re: Buying rules

I didn't realize that it is so hard
to purchase things from the approval
or auction platform. And here I
have been picking out stamps faster
than I can mount them and create new
pages. I must be doing something wrong.

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Stevo45
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11 May 2018
01:38:13am

Approvals
re: Buying rules

Quote:

Quote:

""It is increasingly harder to buy here. Sellers often do not post enough for sale to make a purchase feasible."

Maybe it is time to be thankful for the "professional" sellers?
"



I would have thought that the above indicates a need for larger books which of course will not happen with the "New Rules"

Steve
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michael78651
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11 May 2018
02:40:49am
re: Buying rules

Is it just whining for the sake of whining or what?

Sellers say that after the first week or so after an approval book is posted sales drop off to bare minimum if there are any further sales at all. We put in programming to help clear out the stale approval books to make the others visible, then suddenly the length of time isn't enough.

You are given stats that books in the Closing Soon category have been and continue to be active from 4 to 11 months and counting. Previous stats given have shown some books have remained active for well over a year. That's longer than it used to be when the one year time period was used.

So what gives? WTF do you want? Explain it to me. Quit your snarky remarks and provide something useful instead.

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Stevo45
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11 May 2018
03:54:28am

Approvals
re: Buying rules

Hey Michael,

I thought positive reinforcement (in a respectful way) was what the buyer in this case deserved.

I and many buyers here want bigger Books, and more of 'em, so that more than one or two people have some chance to buy inexpensive stamps.

If you can't play nice maybe you should - "Quit your snarky remarks"

You know full well what is best for this Club and it's Members and yet you and another 12 people changed the rules to the detriment of all members here.

And for the record, I have made many suggestions (to you) all of which have been ignored.

Cheers

Steve.

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Soundcrest
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11 May 2018
04:20:20am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

Nope nope nope. Not only am I not taking the bait, I will not even continue to look at this discussion for fear of too much temptation to weigh in.......

Greg

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michael78651
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11 May 2018
04:45:47am
re: Buying rules

Steve, you had your chance, and you blew it.

Quote:

"I and many buyers here want bigger Books, and more of 'em, so that more than one or two people have some chance to buy inexpensive stamps."



Make them. No one is stopping you. Plenty of people make books with hundreds of stamps in them. Hundred, perhaps sometimes even thousands of stamps are sold each day.

Quote:

"You know full well what is best for this Club and it's Members and yet you and another 12 people changed the rules to the detriment of all members here."



Wow, so Stamporama has cratered and fallen apart, because you are upset with things. Are you sure that constant complaining and not offering any suggestions in a constructive, non-bullying manner, not volunteering to help is not detrimental to all here?

Quote:

"And for the record, I have made many suggestions (to you) all of which have been ignored."



Many suggestions to me? I checked on that. I looked at all of my private messages from January 2015 to date. I have a few, only a very few from you during that time frame.

- October - you sent me an invoice for stamps I bought from you
- early September 2017 - I fixed the link to your homepage. You thanked me for that.

- May 2017 - you did make two suggestions for improvements to the auctions - you wanted to be able to post more images, and you wanted to have a bulk edit function (I believe our webmaster discussed that, but I don't recall offhand what he said)

- October 2016 to May 2017 - you had several disputes against buyers

- June 2016 - you asked for help to see if the approval book update messenger was working for your new books. I checked for you and told you that it was. You thanked me for the help and said, "Feedback does not always happen - When it does it's welcome.."

- I have no messages from you prior to June 2016.

In my response to you above, I gave you a chance to give me feedback to help me understand what you want. All I got back was more criticism, inaccuracies, unwarranted accusations and more complaining.

Oh well... and you complained about being ignored, which you really weren't, but when you don't provide any constructive feedback when invited to do so, what else is one to do?
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Webpaper
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11 May 2018
09:06:25am
re: Buying rules

Why don't we all just agree to disagree. There is no right or wrong here. Every one of us has our own favorite method of buying and/or selling. It is fine to make that favorite method known but once a suggestion is made let's not revisit it daily.

At the end of the day the only thing that is certain is that this is a club and that this club, like all successful clubs, has rules to follow. They may change, but they are rules and the rules of the day should be followed.

Why is there so much ink spread among these discussion pages on the buying and selling of stamps. Look at the statistics - a high percentage of the members of the club don't care what buyers and sellers do - we are invisible to them.

So why do they belong to the club? Because it is an incredible resource. Hit the "home" button above and explore a bit. Back issues of "The Rambler" and "The Gazette". We have articles, historic articles, exhibits and links to other resource sites...... and using the search function of the discussion pages yields detailed information on almost every facet of our hobby. Got a question on Heligoland - there are over a dozen threads that have some information.

I probably shouldn't be commenting since I don't sell here anymore, but it is discouraging that we don't recognize that this is probably the only sales venue where change is possible - don't like it - tell Ebay what you think of their site and listen to their response - silence. The same holds true for most commercial sites. I loved the site architecture of Bidstart - the ease of one page with all of the current and historical listing and financial data available with the push of one button. I hate the format of of Hipstamp - drill down architecture, no index to assist in finding anything, going through the laborious process of creating separate csv files for any piece of data that could be done with one click of the mouse before. I have made my thoughs known both on the forums as well as in private emails to Mark - guess what, it's not going to change and I have to accept that or move on to ???????????????/

That's my two cents for the day

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musicman
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APS #213005
11 May 2018
09:24:14am
re: Buying rules

Amen, Carol....amen.


I only hope everyone reads this and gives it the consideration it deserves!


Well said.

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Soundcrest
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11 May 2018
11:21:33am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

I'll weigh in only because it is off topic

Quote:

"going through the laborious process of creating separate csv files"



Personally I find the Hipstamp bulk uploader amazingly fast. I can create a spreadsheet of 100 stamps (after looking everything up and writing it down which has to be done anyway) in less than an hour - and I'm no typist. The fact that you can use a "0" and let the system find the country is outstanding. I agree the single stamp method is a horror and I have complained as well, saying I could not list on the site the way it was constructed. Sounds like the one at a time option has not changed. The bulk uploader is almost as good as the old ability to take Turbo files from ebay in the days of Bidstart. Currently I set up 50-100 auctions there using unsold listings here and ebay in about 30 minutes.

I played with the bulk uploader here and was not impressed though it may have changed in 3 years. If I got it to work quickly I too could run the same auctions a dozen times or until sold. I also tried the whole staging thing here a couple of times and did not like the results either (another plus to the bulk uploader in Hip is the ability to set time). Still for a one at a time upload, this site works fine

Greg

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11 May 2018
12:01:27pm
re: Buying rules

Hi Greg,

I agree on the bulk uploader. My problem is when I want to find the value of stamps sold from a particular country, or the value of stamps listed in a country or area. Or say the value of covers listed, or stamps of Europe, etc. That was all available on a one click basis, even for a specific time period so you could plot trends.Granted it was more important when I had a lot of stamps listed but even with 7500 +- it's a nice thing to know.

It also makes it cumbersome in the event of an audit.. playing around with csv files to answer questions is not what I want to be doing .. even retrieving information during tax preparation is cumbersome... I probably worry about details a bit too much but the details have come in handy a couple of times in the past.....


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michael78651
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11 May 2018
12:04:37pm
re: Buying rules

Greg, in the auction listing process here, when you list one lot at a time, you can put them in an "On Hold" status. When you are ready, you can then activate all of the auction lots that are on hold, and they'll be available for bidding.

To my knowledge, the bulk uploader doesn't have that option. I don't know if it's possible to program that into the bulk uploader. That would be a Tim question.

The last change to the bulk uploader was made in 2016 to permit adding the country name. I don't know if other program tweaking was done to the uploader at that time.

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Tom in Exton, PA
11 May 2018
12:20:27pm

Approvals
re: Buying rules

Quote:

"Sellers say that after the first week or so after an approval book is posted sales drop off to bare minimum if there are any further sales at all."



I found this interesting but true, both as a buyer and seller.

I've been on the welcoming committee and see the new members trickle in at about 5-10 a week. When I posted my first books, I thought there would be sales over time as people joined and discovered the approvals. I'm surprised.

Both as an approval and auction seller, I found the same small group of people bid on my stuff. And I tend to buy from the same people too.

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Soundcrest
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11 May 2018
12:58:16pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

Michael I did do that. What happened the three times I did it (we were going to be on vacation) was that the auctions did not start in the order that I placed uploaded them. They started all at once which was mixed up and a pain because a) all my penny auctions start first every week and b) the order that they ended did not match the sheets I make up weekly for auctions. Instead I now run some for 14 days, and some for 10 (normal). If we were going to be away for a while I'd just do the work via my laptop while on vacation. We rarely take a vacation for more than 7 days.

Greg

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michael78651
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11 May 2018
02:50:58pm
re: Buying rules

Yes, that is a limitation of the system. Thanks.

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cougar
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04 Jul 2018
03:06:20pm

Approvals
re: Buying rules

This thread saw quite the development since I last checked on it!

And in the meantime I receive more of those pesky 30 cent invoices garnished with shipping fees and additional charges (to offset Ebay fees?).

What can I say? No problem, I will pay them. I can lose a beer here and there, but I can say that those I pay them to can be sure this is the last time I buy anything from them. Hope this doesn't go against the rules.Winking

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
04 Jul 2018
04:00:24pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buying rules

COMMUNICATION between buyer and seller is the key.

If you buy three stamps and expect to buy more later from the same seller TELL THEM!

If you don't know if you will, TELL THEM, ask them to hold fire on the invoice just in case. Most sellers here will wait BUT DO NOT expect the seller to wait/hold for weeks, that is downright bad manners on the buyers part.

Sellers are not mind readers, they are human! Just because you receive an invoice it may not be a demand for payment just a note from the seller to the buyer to let them know how much you have spent and the shipping costs. SELLERS can amend invoices or add to the invoice if more items are purchased.

Treat people the way that you would like to be treated and you won't go far wrong.

COMMUNICATION, COMMUNICATION, COMMUNICATION.






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