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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

 

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parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

28 Apr 2018
04:34:02pm
I'm attaching an image of a stamp that looks like Italy 23 (type II) or 23a (Type I). According to Scott the difference is:

Type I — First “C” in bottom line nearly closed.
Type II — “C” open. Line broken below “Q.”

The image looks like the "C" is open but the line below the "Q" appears to be solid.

Image Not Found

When I did a search on HipStamp and Ebay, most of the images for 23a look like my stamp. I have doubts those are identified correctly. There was a used stamp on HipStamp where the "C" actually looks close to being closed. I'm attaching an image below.

Image Not Found

The other option is that the stamp is a counterfeit of forgery. Early stamps of Italy have been known to have numerous dubious issues.

Does anyone have any expertise in this area? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

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"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

www.hipstamp.com/store/parkinlot-stamps-collectibles
michael78651

28 Apr 2018
07:48:01pm
re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

It is an "official" forgery from Naples (as stated in the Serrane Guide, whatever "official" means) of the Die II. The genuine Die II would look similar to the Die I you have pictured, but the "C" would be open, and the line below the "Q" would be broken. (Note that there is a transfer flaw with Die II where the line below the "Q" is found complete.

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parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

29 Apr 2018
10:25:00am
re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

Awesome. Thanks Michael. Didn't think it was legit.

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"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

www.hipstamp.com/store/parkinlot-stamps-collectibles
nigelc
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29 Apr 2018
05:28:47pm
re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

Hi Michael,

Does Serrane give any help in distinguishing between the official forgery and the original transfer flaw?

By the way SG lists six stamps:

First "C" in bottom inscr half closed (11 Feb):

SG 6 15c blue

SG 6a deep blue

SG 6b "C" completely closed (="O")

"C" open and line broken below Q (16 Apr):

SG 7 15c blue

SG 7a deep blue

SG 7b Line below "Q" unbroken


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dollhaus

29 Apr 2018
06:48:31pm
re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

"By the way SG lists six stamps:"



Now you have me digging through my duplicates. I know there's another 23 in there somewhere, but my filing system has let me down. It's not in Italy Before 1900 where it ought to be, so where is it?

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nigelc
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29 Apr 2018
07:07:36pm
re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

Haha! It happens to me too. I've recently mislaid my independent Morocco stamps.

I remember putting them somewhere safe until I got a new binder but not where that was!

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Author/Postings

Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
28 Apr 2018
04:34:02pm

I'm attaching an image of a stamp that looks like Italy 23 (type II) or 23a (Type I). According to Scott the difference is:

Type I — First “C” in bottom line nearly closed.
Type II — “C” open. Line broken below “Q.”

The image looks like the "C" is open but the line below the "Q" appears to be solid.

Image Not Found

When I did a search on HipStamp and Ebay, most of the images for 23a look like my stamp. I have doubts those are identified correctly. There was a used stamp on HipStamp where the "C" actually looks close to being closed. I'm attaching an image below.

Image Not Found

The other option is that the stamp is a counterfeit of forgery. Early stamps of Italy have been known to have numerous dubious issues.

Does anyone have any expertise in this area? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

Like
Login to Like
this post

"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
michael78651

28 Apr 2018
07:48:01pm

re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

It is an "official" forgery from Naples (as stated in the Serrane Guide, whatever "official" means) of the Die II. The genuine Die II would look similar to the Die I you have pictured, but the "C" would be open, and the line below the "Q" would be broken. (Note that there is a transfer flaw with Die II where the line below the "Q" is found complete.

Like
Login to Like
this post

Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
29 Apr 2018
10:25:00am

re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

Awesome. Thanks Michael. Didn't think it was legit.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
nigelc

29 Apr 2018
05:28:47pm

re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

Hi Michael,

Does Serrane give any help in distinguishing between the official forgery and the original transfer flaw?

By the way SG lists six stamps:

First "C" in bottom inscr half closed (11 Feb):

SG 6 15c blue

SG 6a deep blue

SG 6b "C" completely closed (="O")

"C" open and line broken below Q (16 Apr):

SG 7 15c blue

SG 7a deep blue

SG 7b Line below "Q" unbroken


Like
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this post
dollhaus

29 Apr 2018
06:48:31pm

re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

"By the way SG lists six stamps:"



Now you have me digging through my duplicates. I know there's another 23 in there somewhere, but my filing system has let me down. It's not in Italy Before 1900 where it ought to be, so where is it?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
nigelc

29 Apr 2018
07:07:36pm

re: Italy 23 or 23a or Forgery/Counterfeit?

Haha! It happens to me too. I've recently mislaid my independent Morocco stamps.

I remember putting them somewhere safe until I got a new binder but not where that was!

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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