Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
A common pre-1930 U.S. MNH stamp with a CV of ~$400 and a market value of say half that. Does anyone have any idea of the steps involved, the technology employed, and the inspection time required for an expertization certificate?
For a stamp of this type does only one expert look at it or are there multiple inspectors?
If a grading certificate is sought does the answer to the above (steps, technology, time, # of inspectors, etc.) change much? Thanks,
Dennis
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first, grading and certification are completely different.
grading really talks about the quality of the thing presented, especially centering. It doesn't so much identify the thing. I doubt that the amount of knowledge and equipment is required as with certification, which should establish what stamp it is and whether that stamp is genuine, and if it's been altered.
The amount of time on the latter is determined by lots of factors, including the universe of alternate possibilities among paper, watermark, perfs, tagging, etc., as well as the existence of fakes and similar stamps. Flag over white house should be significantly easier than a 2c Washington, for instance.
David
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Here is a link to the APS site that contains information about stamp authentication and how to go about doing it. Non-APS members can submit stamps to the APS for authentication. The cost is a little higher.
https://stamps.org/Stamp-Authentication
Also, Linn's has a regular feature about stamp authentication.
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Thank you gentlemen but you haven't got to the heart of my question. I understand the distinction between expertizing and grading and I understand how to request a certification. But here is what I don't understand.
Given my assumptions (you have a relatively expensive (say $400) U.S. stamp, it is a common stamp, there are no complexities as to variations, it is not something easily forged from another stamp, etc.), I would like to know:
1) On average (and skipping all the caveats) how long does it take an expert to "expertize" the stamp? Is it typically one minute? Is it typically 10 minutes?
2) Beyond their own inherent knowledge, what tools do they use? I assume they don't use a conventional "Sherlock Holmes" type magnifying glass, but rather a digital inspection camera... is that correct? If so, what magnification do they use (go too high and everything looks like a flaw)?
What other tools? Do they routinely shine a high-powered light through the stamp? Do they routinely inspect it under UV light? What else? How do they ensure it has not been re-gummed?
I'm really hoping that someone who has expertised stamps will read this and tell me exactly how they do it. Thanks,
Dennis
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That is an impossible question to answer because "it depends". Every person who is paid to expertise stamps has their own level of comfort, their own tools, their own favorite chemicals, their own methodology and their own area of expertise.
My first thought is why would you want to obtain a certificate for a common US stamp which catalogs $400 and is not commonly forged (this eliminates coils, imperfs, color variations, etc)?
In this day and age a high resolution scan of both sides and a bit of creativity with filtering, along with a UV light can tell you a lot about a stamp as to condition and repairs.
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Anglophile,
Thank you!! That is exactly what I wanted to know. Regards,
Dennis
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I am also intrigued by the questions Dennis asks..
I am thinking that different places have different levels of respect based on their methods. For instance the one known for baseball cards, and oh by the way stamps too, is a bit different than APS or Philatelic Foundation.
For instance I own many different copies of the Covel private perforation on Scott 314. They are not Scott listed, but are not hard to come by and well known. I would certainly expect any "expert" in this era to instantly recognize them. In fact there is a Covel cover on eBay right now.
Exhibit A - Certificate from PSE.. declares this as a fake. It is clearly a Covel perforated pair. Imagine how many people get "Fake" certificates and destroy the stamp? Upon buying this, I sent an inquiry to PSE and received no reply whatsoever. Not even a reply that said "Thank you for your email". I would expect that any agency would be apt to defend their certificates?
And here's a Weiss certificate for the same stamp. Clearly identified as what it is. I know Bill is no longer around, but it shows he was knowledgeable.
I dunno folks, but my expectations are that for the cost of expertizing, I expect an agency to stand behind and either defend or reissue a certificate on an item when challenged. Otherwise what good is it?
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"Every person who is paid to expertise stamps has their own level of comfort, their own tools, their own favorite chemicals, their own methodology and their own area of expertise."
If that's true Webpaper then as a newcomer I'm somewhat appalled at what passes for certification in this hobby. I am an engineer and when we certify something we typically:
- Follow a highly prescribed, step-by-step procedure that has been approved by a professional standards organization
- Are required to use specific tools (often those tools have to be calibrated before use)
- Frequently the work must be done (or at least signed off on) by a certified professional engineer (Are stamp experts themselves certified? If so by whom?)
I certainly understand that experts will have their own areas of expertise but the notion that they will follow their own procedures, select their own inspection magnifications, use their favorite chemicals, not follow a detailed inspection checklist, and so on is disturbing to me. It sounds like "One Expert's Opinion" and not true "Certification."
Have PS, PSE, etc. ever done blind submittals of the same stamps to multiple experts to look for consistency?
Dennis
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I understand from an engineering standpoint that everything is based on science and known facts. My husband ran an engineering department for a large corporation doing business all over the world back in the 70's and 80's and taught college in the 90's so I have some exposure to the field, even though vicarious.
Stamp expertization is as much art as science. Please note that ALL certificates use the word "opinion". I have seen obvious fakes with good certificates and genuine stamps with bad certificates. That is why most people insist on a new certificate when buying expensive stamps. The person or persons doing the expertization certify their "opinion" - not something that you have the luxury of doing in your field.
Perhaps things have changed in the way of equipment. The people I knew involved in expertization back in the 80's and 90's used differing methods and technologies based on personal preference and what stamps they specialized in. They all trusted their knowledge and eyes as much as, if not more than, the specific items they used in their determination.
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Interesting ideas from all but unlike engineers who can test to destruction, the experts in the philatelic field have to use more subtle means, although I wonder how many have in fact destroyed or damaged items in the inspection.
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Regarding how long it takes to expertize a stamp, it depends on how much the submitter wants checked on the stamp, and how much information (and how clearly it is written) the submitter provides.
If you say, "I want the stamp expertized", well, what exactly do you want to know? Is it regummed, reperfed, is it a forgery. The more you provide on the form, the quicker the expertizing group can zero in on where your concerns are. If you take your car in to a mechanic, and drop it off with a note saying, "it rattles". The mechanic won't have a clue of where to start looking for the problem. It'll take longer to find the problem.
If you don't provide enough information of exactly what you're concerns are with the stamp, you could get an opinion that you're not looking for. As in the car example, you could return later to pick up your car, pay $250.00, and the receipt says, "Fixed rattle on door handle." If the door handle wasn't the "rattle" you wanted checked, then you'll have to start all over again.
Make sure it is a stamp that really needs to be "expertized". Most do not, according to stamp experitzers. They suggest that posting an image on a stamp forum often provides enough information for a collector to decide whether it would be worth it to submit for a certificate, or those responding on the forum provided enough information so that the collector is satisfied and doesn't have to spend the money for a certificate.
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Sheepshanks, during the expertization process, it does happen, the degree of which depends on one's point of view.
If one is looking for expertization of a stamp on a cover, often it is necessary to view the backside of the stamp. The only way to do that is to remove the stamp from the cover. They do try to place the stamp in the exact spot where it was, but the stamp was removed. Sometimes they need to remove the tiniest speck of ink of cancellation to test for time period in the ink dies. Sometimes they need a piece of paper from the stamp to test it. Before the most recent sale of the British Guiana Scott #13, they did just that to confirm its authenticity. Is that considered damage? I guess everyone has to decide that for themselves, but it is part of the authentication process for many stamps and covers.
I'm sure that sometimes bad things happen where a stamp or cover gets torn, creased, etc., or even gets lost in the mail going between different expertizers (most do their work from their home). It's all the risks that are taken.
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"Most do not, according to stamp experitzers. They suggest that posting an image on a stamp forum often provides enough information for a collector to decide whether it would be worth it to submit for a certificate, or those responding on the forum provided enough information so that the collector is satisfied and doesn't have to spend the money for a certificate."
This us an excellent comment Micheal and suggests to me there should be one designated place on the forum where folks can post stamp photos for comments. Perhaps under General Philatelic there could be a topic titled something like "Stamp Authenticity Concerns." The posting guidelines would not allow open-ended questions such as, "Is this stamp authentic?" Instead the poster would ask specific questions, such as, "The seller says this stamp is mint but do you think the mark in the upper right margin is the remnant of a cancellation"
Would something like this be useful?
Dennis
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People post images of stamps that they have questions on all the time. Use the Can you help identify this? topic to do so. They ask questions just like you suggest.
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It is what it is indeed. Back in the late 80's, early 90's some dealers and auction houses had a lot more luck than others in obtaining good certs from certain expertization services and we quickly learned to shy away from purchasing high dollar sets and singles from those auction houses - especially with a fresh cert.
You can learn a lot more about a stamp by providing a high quality scan and posting it here or walking it around a show and asking dealers who specialize in that type of material. Many dealers are happy to share their knowledge, some are not.
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I concur with Chris, there are a lot of misconceptions about certification documents. In my opinion the certification industry needs significant improvement in several areas.
Fees and Rates
The typical practice is to charge using catalog value; I think an improvement would be that they move to time and materials. Some stamps and covers may take days to authenticate or use of special, costly equipment while others may only take much less time. Additionally as we all know, catalog value often does not come anywhere close to true market value. For example, a highly sought after US stamp with a catalog value of $1000 does not have the same market value as a $1000 catalog value Peruvian stamp; but a hobbyists would pay the same for a certification.
Conversely, a low value stamp might take many hours to properly authenticate but they would only be able to charge the minimum? Does not this situation incentivize them to 'cheat' and not spend the correct amount of time?
Verification Database/Process
All existing certifications should be able to be verified. Ideally this would be an online database lookup; allowing others to lookup an existing document to verify its legitimacy. Without this it is just as easy to fake/forge a cert document as it is a stamp or cover. Previous mistakes and errors should be noted and/or corrected in the database. (I have emails from one certification company where they admit one of their certs is wrong and commit to correcting it…twice. Yet the incorrect cert is still sitting their out there and the stamp has been sold several times since it was first issued.)
Publishing of Performance Metrics
How does a consumer understand a certification company/organization performance? Mistakes and errors are hidden from the public. I am not even sure that mistakes and errors are tracked internally; allowing them to understand the track record of the experts they use. Obviously some companies/organizations are better than others, especially for certain collecting areas. But how does a consumer determine this, how does a consumer make the best decision when seeking a certification for a particular stamp or cover?
Signing of the Certification by Expert(s)
If you are paying for an opinion, then you should know who’s opinion you are paying for; I see little value in having a person who never even saw the stamp or cover sign the opinion and hiding the name of the people who actually did the work.
Grading
Ideally there would be an industry-wide grading standard because having a dozen or more grading standards is a nightmare for the consumer. But in the absence of an industry-wide grading standard each company/organization should have a published, detailed standard. Frankly a detailed standard like this would be a very significant document since it would have to outline the criteria used for each stamp. For example, the centering of a US stamp greatly improved after the introduction of the electric eye process. The centering of a stamp also varies greatly depends upon the tolerances of the perforating process which also varied over time.
How much does a crease impact a grade? How much does an inclusion affect a grade? How percentage of a grade does centering account for?
Understanding how these things impact the grade also impact the purchasing decision. So dealers and others who often use the services now have 'special knowledge' on where to submit a stamp or cover, tilting the odds in getting a favorable grade.
Don
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06:34:32pm
I've often considered having my Heligoland collection expertised, but the cons outweigh the pros in terms of fees.
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well, Kelly,
you'll certainly have less coins but very little prose to show for it.
and, I'd never be one to go to Heligoland with myself
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"you'll certainly have less coins but very little prose to show for it."
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am sorry, but David's "bad pun" filter seems to be broken (AGAIN!).
And to the person that "liked" that post, you know you're just encouraging that bad behaviour. Let me guess: You enjoy watching videos of staged train wrecks! (Who doesn't!)
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Dennis, Greetings:
No one seems to have mentioned that the certification services recruit the experts that will examine your stamp(s).
Each stamp (etc) that comes in is referred to the expert in their stable with the relevant expertise.
So if you submit, say, a Schermack coil pair for certification, it may go to a World Class Universally-Recognized-As-The-Go-To-Guy expert in Schermacks, or it may go their the guy to whom they send all of their coils, period.
Moreover, nothing stops an expert from quitting one service in favor of another or, if they are strong in their field, from working for more than one service.
And its your dumb luck if their expert happens to be the dealer from whom you bought the pair, or the collector who sold the pair to the dealer, etc, etc, etc.
That's one reason why you will see Don (and others) campaigning for the expert(s) to sign the cert; they are not created equal and, worse, they can move around if they wish.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Anything with opinions is always never going to be perfect. You have humans involved.
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"Each stamp (etc) that comes in is referred to the expert in their stable with the relevant expertise.
So if you submit, say, a Schermack coil pair for certification, it may go to a World Class Universally-Recognized-As-The-Go-To-Guy expert in Schermacks, or it may go their the guy to whom they send all of their coils, period."
Or the Kelly Temp they brought in on Monday, gave an hour's training and set them loose!
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12:08:01am
I've long felt that if the expertizer's opinion that stamp is bogus, he, o she, should at least provide the reason.
I sent a series of stamps to an auction house in Europe and they sent one stamp to the expert in the field. It was snt back as false. I think that was the word used, it was forty years ago.
Along came a bill for $20.00. I sent a polite note asking what about it was false ?
Back came a note "I have no such example in my collection."
Hmmm, could it just be something genuine that he had never seen ?
After all, I do see in the philatelic press, now and then, someone finding something never seen before, or at least never identified ?
The dealers who handled the British Guiena magenta had never see an example before.
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The item that was deemed false 40 years ago makes me curious. Was it false? Do you still have that stamp? Did you ever have it re-expertised?
Bruce
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This is for those who have sent stamps for expertizing. I am only asking for past experiences. I sent a stamp to Germany for expertizing. It only took 2 weeks from start to finish. I sent a stamp to APS on 17 February for expertizing. After waiting for a month I was told that it normally takes 60 to 90 days. I still have not received the stamp back. I know that there are a multitude of variables.
Based on any prior experiences, is the wait time normal if there is such a thing as normal?
By the way I sent what I believe is a US Scott #85 D grill.
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Mel,
I only had one stamp expertized by APS and it was a long wait with a rather incomplete response, certainly far less than I would have expected for the amount of money that changed hands
David
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David,
Thanks for the info. It is as I expected. Guess I will wait a little longer and hope for the best.
Mel
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I'm curious as to the steps involved in PF and/or PSE certification. I'm sure the process and time required varies greatly between a common stamp and an extreme rarity, but take the following as an example.
A common pre-1930 U.S. MNH stamp with a CV of ~$400 and a market value of say half that. Does anyone have any idea of the steps involved, the technology employed, and the inspection time required for an expertization certificate?
For a stamp of this type does only one expert look at it or are there multiple inspectors?
If a grading certificate is sought does the answer to the above (steps, technology, time, # of inspectors, etc.) change much? Thanks,
Dennis
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re: Question re Certification Process
first, grading and certification are completely different.
grading really talks about the quality of the thing presented, especially centering. It doesn't so much identify the thing. I doubt that the amount of knowledge and equipment is required as with certification, which should establish what stamp it is and whether that stamp is genuine, and if it's been altered.
The amount of time on the latter is determined by lots of factors, including the universe of alternate possibilities among paper, watermark, perfs, tagging, etc., as well as the existence of fakes and similar stamps. Flag over white house should be significantly easier than a 2c Washington, for instance.
David
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11:34:48am
re: Question re Certification Process
Here is a link to the APS site that contains information about stamp authentication and how to go about doing it. Non-APS members can submit stamps to the APS for authentication. The cost is a little higher.
https://stamps.org/Stamp-Authentication
Also, Linn's has a regular feature about stamp authentication.
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re: Question re Certification Process
Thank you gentlemen but you haven't got to the heart of my question. I understand the distinction between expertizing and grading and I understand how to request a certification. But here is what I don't understand.
Given my assumptions (you have a relatively expensive (say $400) U.S. stamp, it is a common stamp, there are no complexities as to variations, it is not something easily forged from another stamp, etc.), I would like to know:
1) On average (and skipping all the caveats) how long does it take an expert to "expertize" the stamp? Is it typically one minute? Is it typically 10 minutes?
2) Beyond their own inherent knowledge, what tools do they use? I assume they don't use a conventional "Sherlock Holmes" type magnifying glass, but rather a digital inspection camera... is that correct? If so, what magnification do they use (go too high and everything looks like a flaw)?
What other tools? Do they routinely shine a high-powered light through the stamp? Do they routinely inspect it under UV light? What else? How do they ensure it has not been re-gummed?
I'm really hoping that someone who has expertised stamps will read this and tell me exactly how they do it. Thanks,
Dennis
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02:37:21pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Question re Certification Process
That is an impossible question to answer because "it depends". Every person who is paid to expertise stamps has their own level of comfort, their own tools, their own favorite chemicals, their own methodology and their own area of expertise.
My first thought is why would you want to obtain a certificate for a common US stamp which catalogs $400 and is not commonly forged (this eliminates coils, imperfs, color variations, etc)?
In this day and age a high resolution scan of both sides and a bit of creativity with filtering, along with a UV light can tell you a lot about a stamp as to condition and repairs.
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re: Question re Certification Process
Anglophile,
Thank you!! That is exactly what I wanted to know. Regards,
Dennis
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re: Question re Certification Process
I am also intrigued by the questions Dennis asks..
I am thinking that different places have different levels of respect based on their methods. For instance the one known for baseball cards, and oh by the way stamps too, is a bit different than APS or Philatelic Foundation.
For instance I own many different copies of the Covel private perforation on Scott 314. They are not Scott listed, but are not hard to come by and well known. I would certainly expect any "expert" in this era to instantly recognize them. In fact there is a Covel cover on eBay right now.
Exhibit A - Certificate from PSE.. declares this as a fake. It is clearly a Covel perforated pair. Imagine how many people get "Fake" certificates and destroy the stamp? Upon buying this, I sent an inquiry to PSE and received no reply whatsoever. Not even a reply that said "Thank you for your email". I would expect that any agency would be apt to defend their certificates?
And here's a Weiss certificate for the same stamp. Clearly identified as what it is. I know Bill is no longer around, but it shows he was knowledgeable.
I dunno folks, but my expectations are that for the cost of expertizing, I expect an agency to stand behind and either defend or reissue a certificate on an item when challenged. Otherwise what good is it?
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re: Question re Certification Process
"Every person who is paid to expertise stamps has their own level of comfort, their own tools, their own favorite chemicals, their own methodology and their own area of expertise."
If that's true Webpaper then as a newcomer I'm somewhat appalled at what passes for certification in this hobby. I am an engineer and when we certify something we typically:
- Follow a highly prescribed, step-by-step procedure that has been approved by a professional standards organization
- Are required to use specific tools (often those tools have to be calibrated before use)
- Frequently the work must be done (or at least signed off on) by a certified professional engineer (Are stamp experts themselves certified? If so by whom?)
I certainly understand that experts will have their own areas of expertise but the notion that they will follow their own procedures, select their own inspection magnifications, use their favorite chemicals, not follow a detailed inspection checklist, and so on is disturbing to me. It sounds like "One Expert's Opinion" and not true "Certification."
Have PS, PSE, etc. ever done blind submittals of the same stamps to multiple experts to look for consistency?
Dennis
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06:02:32pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Question re Certification Process
I understand from an engineering standpoint that everything is based on science and known facts. My husband ran an engineering department for a large corporation doing business all over the world back in the 70's and 80's and taught college in the 90's so I have some exposure to the field, even though vicarious.
Stamp expertization is as much art as science. Please note that ALL certificates use the word "opinion". I have seen obvious fakes with good certificates and genuine stamps with bad certificates. That is why most people insist on a new certificate when buying expensive stamps. The person or persons doing the expertization certify their "opinion" - not something that you have the luxury of doing in your field.
Perhaps things have changed in the way of equipment. The people I knew involved in expertization back in the 80's and 90's used differing methods and technologies based on personal preference and what stamps they specialized in. They all trusted their knowledge and eyes as much as, if not more than, the specific items they used in their determination.
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re: Question re Certification Process
Interesting ideas from all but unlike engineers who can test to destruction, the experts in the philatelic field have to use more subtle means, although I wonder how many have in fact destroyed or damaged items in the inspection.
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10:07:37pm
re: Question re Certification Process
Regarding how long it takes to expertize a stamp, it depends on how much the submitter wants checked on the stamp, and how much information (and how clearly it is written) the submitter provides.
If you say, "I want the stamp expertized", well, what exactly do you want to know? Is it regummed, reperfed, is it a forgery. The more you provide on the form, the quicker the expertizing group can zero in on where your concerns are. If you take your car in to a mechanic, and drop it off with a note saying, "it rattles". The mechanic won't have a clue of where to start looking for the problem. It'll take longer to find the problem.
If you don't provide enough information of exactly what you're concerns are with the stamp, you could get an opinion that you're not looking for. As in the car example, you could return later to pick up your car, pay $250.00, and the receipt says, "Fixed rattle on door handle." If the door handle wasn't the "rattle" you wanted checked, then you'll have to start all over again.
Make sure it is a stamp that really needs to be "expertized". Most do not, according to stamp experitzers. They suggest that posting an image on a stamp forum often provides enough information for a collector to decide whether it would be worth it to submit for a certificate, or those responding on the forum provided enough information so that the collector is satisfied and doesn't have to spend the money for a certificate.
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10:13:29pm
re: Question re Certification Process
Sheepshanks, during the expertization process, it does happen, the degree of which depends on one's point of view.
If one is looking for expertization of a stamp on a cover, often it is necessary to view the backside of the stamp. The only way to do that is to remove the stamp from the cover. They do try to place the stamp in the exact spot where it was, but the stamp was removed. Sometimes they need to remove the tiniest speck of ink of cancellation to test for time period in the ink dies. Sometimes they need a piece of paper from the stamp to test it. Before the most recent sale of the British Guiana Scott #13, they did just that to confirm its authenticity. Is that considered damage? I guess everyone has to decide that for themselves, but it is part of the authentication process for many stamps and covers.
I'm sure that sometimes bad things happen where a stamp or cover gets torn, creased, etc., or even gets lost in the mail going between different expertizers (most do their work from their home). It's all the risks that are taken.
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re: Question re Certification Process
"Most do not, according to stamp experitzers. They suggest that posting an image on a stamp forum often provides enough information for a collector to decide whether it would be worth it to submit for a certificate, or those responding on the forum provided enough information so that the collector is satisfied and doesn't have to spend the money for a certificate."
This us an excellent comment Micheal and suggests to me there should be one designated place on the forum where folks can post stamp photos for comments. Perhaps under General Philatelic there could be a topic titled something like "Stamp Authenticity Concerns." The posting guidelines would not allow open-ended questions such as, "Is this stamp authentic?" Instead the poster would ask specific questions, such as, "The seller says this stamp is mint but do you think the mark in the upper right margin is the remnant of a cancellation"
Would something like this be useful?
Dennis
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02:38:28am
re: Question re Certification Process
People post images of stamps that they have questions on all the time. Use the Can you help identify this? topic to do so. They ask questions just like you suggest.
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08:28:36pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Question re Certification Process
It is what it is indeed. Back in the late 80's, early 90's some dealers and auction houses had a lot more luck than others in obtaining good certs from certain expertization services and we quickly learned to shy away from purchasing high dollar sets and singles from those auction houses - especially with a fresh cert.
You can learn a lot more about a stamp by providing a high quality scan and posting it here or walking it around a show and asking dealers who specialize in that type of material. Many dealers are happy to share their knowledge, some are not.
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re: Question re Certification Process
I concur with Chris, there are a lot of misconceptions about certification documents. In my opinion the certification industry needs significant improvement in several areas.
Fees and Rates
The typical practice is to charge using catalog value; I think an improvement would be that they move to time and materials. Some stamps and covers may take days to authenticate or use of special, costly equipment while others may only take much less time. Additionally as we all know, catalog value often does not come anywhere close to true market value. For example, a highly sought after US stamp with a catalog value of $1000 does not have the same market value as a $1000 catalog value Peruvian stamp; but a hobbyists would pay the same for a certification.
Conversely, a low value stamp might take many hours to properly authenticate but they would only be able to charge the minimum? Does not this situation incentivize them to 'cheat' and not spend the correct amount of time?
Verification Database/Process
All existing certifications should be able to be verified. Ideally this would be an online database lookup; allowing others to lookup an existing document to verify its legitimacy. Without this it is just as easy to fake/forge a cert document as it is a stamp or cover. Previous mistakes and errors should be noted and/or corrected in the database. (I have emails from one certification company where they admit one of their certs is wrong and commit to correcting it…twice. Yet the incorrect cert is still sitting their out there and the stamp has been sold several times since it was first issued.)
Publishing of Performance Metrics
How does a consumer understand a certification company/organization performance? Mistakes and errors are hidden from the public. I am not even sure that mistakes and errors are tracked internally; allowing them to understand the track record of the experts they use. Obviously some companies/organizations are better than others, especially for certain collecting areas. But how does a consumer determine this, how does a consumer make the best decision when seeking a certification for a particular stamp or cover?
Signing of the Certification by Expert(s)
If you are paying for an opinion, then you should know who’s opinion you are paying for; I see little value in having a person who never even saw the stamp or cover sign the opinion and hiding the name of the people who actually did the work.
Grading
Ideally there would be an industry-wide grading standard because having a dozen or more grading standards is a nightmare for the consumer. But in the absence of an industry-wide grading standard each company/organization should have a published, detailed standard. Frankly a detailed standard like this would be a very significant document since it would have to outline the criteria used for each stamp. For example, the centering of a US stamp greatly improved after the introduction of the electric eye process. The centering of a stamp also varies greatly depends upon the tolerances of the perforating process which also varied over time.
How much does a crease impact a grade? How much does an inclusion affect a grade? How percentage of a grade does centering account for?
Understanding how these things impact the grade also impact the purchasing decision. So dealers and others who often use the services now have 'special knowledge' on where to submit a stamp or cover, tilting the odds in getting a favorable grade.
Don
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
13 Feb 2018
06:34:32pm
re: Question re Certification Process
I've often considered having my Heligoland collection expertised, but the cons outweigh the pros in terms of fees.
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re: Question re Certification Process
well, Kelly,
you'll certainly have less coins but very little prose to show for it.
and, I'd never be one to go to Heligoland with myself
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re: Question re Certification Process
"you'll certainly have less coins but very little prose to show for it."
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am sorry, but David's "bad pun" filter seems to be broken (AGAIN!).
And to the person that "liked" that post, you know you're just encouraging that bad behaviour. Let me guess: You enjoy watching videos of staged train wrecks! (Who doesn't!)
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re: Question re Certification Process
Dennis, Greetings:
No one seems to have mentioned that the certification services recruit the experts that will examine your stamp(s).
Each stamp (etc) that comes in is referred to the expert in their stable with the relevant expertise.
So if you submit, say, a Schermack coil pair for certification, it may go to a World Class Universally-Recognized-As-The-Go-To-Guy expert in Schermacks, or it may go their the guy to whom they send all of their coils, period.
Moreover, nothing stops an expert from quitting one service in favor of another or, if they are strong in their field, from working for more than one service.
And its your dumb luck if their expert happens to be the dealer from whom you bought the pair, or the collector who sold the pair to the dealer, etc, etc, etc.
That's one reason why you will see Don (and others) campaigning for the expert(s) to sign the cert; they are not created equal and, worse, they can move around if they wish.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Question re Certification Process
Anything with opinions is always never going to be perfect. You have humans involved.
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re: Question re Certification Process
"Each stamp (etc) that comes in is referred to the expert in their stable with the relevant expertise.
So if you submit, say, a Schermack coil pair for certification, it may go to a World Class Universally-Recognized-As-The-Go-To-Guy expert in Schermacks, or it may go their the guy to whom they send all of their coils, period."
Or the Kelly Temp they brought in on Monday, gave an hour's training and set them loose!
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
09 Mar 2018
12:08:01am
re: Question re Certification Process
I've long felt that if the expertizer's opinion that stamp is bogus, he, o she, should at least provide the reason.
I sent a series of stamps to an auction house in Europe and they sent one stamp to the expert in the field. It was snt back as false. I think that was the word used, it was forty years ago.
Along came a bill for $20.00. I sent a polite note asking what about it was false ?
Back came a note "I have no such example in my collection."
Hmmm, could it just be something genuine that he had never seen ?
After all, I do see in the philatelic press, now and then, someone finding something never seen before, or at least never identified ?
The dealers who handled the British Guiena magenta had never see an example before.
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07:02:50pm
re: Question re Certification Process
The item that was deemed false 40 years ago makes me curious. Was it false? Do you still have that stamp? Did you ever have it re-expertised?
Bruce
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re: Question re Certification Process
This is for those who have sent stamps for expertizing. I am only asking for past experiences. I sent a stamp to Germany for expertizing. It only took 2 weeks from start to finish. I sent a stamp to APS on 17 February for expertizing. After waiting for a month I was told that it normally takes 60 to 90 days. I still have not received the stamp back. I know that there are a multitude of variables.
Based on any prior experiences, is the wait time normal if there is such a thing as normal?
By the way I sent what I believe is a US Scott #85 D grill.
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re: Question re Certification Process
Mel,
I only had one stamp expertized by APS and it was a long wait with a rather incomplete response, certainly far less than I would have expected for the amount of money that changed hands
David
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re: Question re Certification Process
David,
Thanks for the info. It is as I expected. Guess I will wait a little longer and hope for the best.
Mel
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