Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Sorting thru envelopes of machins to create some approval books and noticed the perfs on these strips. Either the top or bottom perfs seem a little close cut compared to the opposite side. I am not up on all the Machin stuff so I am guessing that this is normal production for booklets. Am I correct?? Also, pls see the upper right perfs on the bottom strip. Looks like a mis-aligned perf. Another production situation?? or Damaged ?? Any help appreciated, do not want to put in approval book if these are damaged. Thanks
Mike / meostamps
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Hi Mike,
Yes, you often got booklets which had panes with trimmed perfs like this.
The strip used in Kettering has damage from the teeth in a vending machine that grip the coil and move it forwards.
If you check the the areas cut at an angle you'll see they have v-shaped cuts rather than misaligned perfs.
This often happened if someone pulled the leading stamp too roughly as it came out of the machine, leaving both the last stamp in the strip and the first stamp of the next strip damaged like this.
Something similar could also happen if the machine had got out of alignment and needed resetting where instead of perfs at one side you got a full edge with v-shaped cuts, sometimes part-way through the first stamp.
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Thanks Nigel. So I can therefore considered the top 2 to not be 'damaged' as by someone cutting too close to the perfs when removing the stamps from an envelope but instead that the shortness is due to the way the booklets are put together by the PO.
I also assume that the right-most stamp on the bottom strip would be considered damaged but will leave it as is just in case the postmark is of interest to someone.
Thanks for your assistance. Had a feeling those were the cases, just wanting to make sure.
Mike / meostamps
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booklets offer wide range of perf depth from straight edge to full perf. the MBPC has a scale to qualify the cut 0-9 ... different perforators and vending machines show many patterns.
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These are not booklets but "multi-value coil strips" from vending machines.They have straight edge perforations top and bottom. Booklet stamps have one straight edge perf top OR bottom or left or right or on two adjacent sides. Single value coils have top and bottom or left and right cut.Note these are not straight edge on the U.S. pattern except for some recent exceptions but cuts through the centre ( alledgedly) of the perforations.
These strips were designed ( normally ) to contain one letter rate stamp, plus small value stamps to "make up" the purchase to the value of the coin to be used in the machine - for example an 8p letter rate plus 2 x 1p stamp ( use a 10p coin). These were particularly useful if you wanted to post one letter after the post offices were closed. You occasionally see envelopes with a large number of "make up" values when someone wanted to use up all the "left-overs". Machines were often attached to high usage post boxes as well as inset into post office walls.
Multi value coil strips are almost all, all perhaps even all, in the horizontal format, where as single value coils can be horizontal or vertical, depending in the issue.
Mint copies can be identified as the perforations are cut straight by guillotine and have no "tear" marks. Used stamps (in theory) can be identified by the same method - however in my experience soaking 1000s of Machin stamps, the only way to 100% identify single used coil (or booklet) stamps is where the stamps are miscut. Regrettably sticking and soaking these stamps often leads to their having the appearence of sheet stamps, although a few survive mishandling and are reasonably obvious. I am though quite sure that among my thousands of stamps I have a few booklet and coil stamps mis-identified as sheet
Early multi-value coil strips ( or parts thereof) are not uncommon, but all coil and booklet stamps on later issues ( prior to the time when almost all NVI stamps were from booklets) as a proportion of the total are much less. This is almost entirely due to differing patterns of purchasing stamps as well as the general decline in use of stamps overall. Stamps are much more available at non post office outlets with more convenient opening hours.
Unfortunately the convention to collecting Machin stamps is still to collect Mint stamps direct from the post office or via dealers. The number of serious used Machin collectors is quite small, although a number are quite well known and keen to share their finds. We tend to be quite "missionary" in our approach to other collectors, hence posting here at every opportunity.
Malcolm
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06:06:31am
On singles from a coil or booklet, we use one of Doug Myall's inventions the TC system of identification.
We discussed this before so a quick read;
here
or
here
should help.
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Charlie
Yes agreed, but I have copies of used stamps which I think may be coil or booklet stamps, but they have "wisps" of paper at the ends of the perfs in the same way as sheet stamps, but which may be there because of the action of sticking the stamp on the envelope, or more likely removing the stamp when the soaking has not quite softened the perfs enough and they have slightly "pulled".
I do have "miscut" stamps which are 100% coil or booklet which exhibit the same characteristics of "wispy" perforations as set out above.As an example the top perf of the 2p top right in the original post shows an example. Obviously as this is attached in this case it is obvious,but more extreme singles could be problematical.
While some used stamps can be definitely identified as coil or booklet stamps, I am not sure that you can be 100% certain that all our single sheet stamps can be so identified unless there is some other characteristic ( or lack of one) to back it up.
Perhaps it does not matter, as the proportion of surviving coil/booklet stamps to sheet stamps means that probably 99.9% will be sheet stamps, but I do tend to be pedantic.
Malcolm
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08:04:25pm
I guess that, as most things, the wispy factor is a matter of judgement that can be ignored when the cut line is quite even over the entire line of perfs. And fortunately there are often those other characteristics to help in the determination.
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Sorting thru envelopes of machins to create some approval books and noticed the perfs on these strips. Either the top or bottom perfs seem a little close cut compared to the opposite side. I am not up on all the Machin stuff so I am guessing that this is normal production for booklets. Am I correct?? Also, pls see the upper right perfs on the bottom strip. Looks like a mis-aligned perf. Another production situation?? or Damaged ?? Any help appreciated, do not want to put in approval book if these are damaged. Thanks
Mike / meostamps
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin strip perf question
Hi Mike,
Yes, you often got booklets which had panes with trimmed perfs like this.
The strip used in Kettering has damage from the teeth in a vending machine that grip the coil and move it forwards.
If you check the the areas cut at an angle you'll see they have v-shaped cuts rather than misaligned perfs.
This often happened if someone pulled the leading stamp too roughly as it came out of the machine, leaving both the last stamp in the strip and the first stamp of the next strip damaged like this.
Something similar could also happen if the machine had got out of alignment and needed resetting where instead of perfs at one side you got a full edge with v-shaped cuts, sometimes part-way through the first stamp.
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin strip perf question
Thanks Nigel. So I can therefore considered the top 2 to not be 'damaged' as by someone cutting too close to the perfs when removing the stamps from an envelope but instead that the shortness is due to the way the booklets are put together by the PO.
I also assume that the right-most stamp on the bottom strip would be considered damaged but will leave it as is just in case the postmark is of interest to someone.
Thanks for your assistance. Had a feeling those were the cases, just wanting to make sure.
Mike / meostamps
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin strip perf question
booklets offer wide range of perf depth from straight edge to full perf. the MBPC has a scale to qualify the cut 0-9 ... different perforators and vending machines show many patterns.
Login to Like
this post
05:52:15am
re: Machin strip perf question
These are not booklets but "multi-value coil strips" from vending machines.They have straight edge perforations top and bottom. Booklet stamps have one straight edge perf top OR bottom or left or right or on two adjacent sides. Single value coils have top and bottom or left and right cut.Note these are not straight edge on the U.S. pattern except for some recent exceptions but cuts through the centre ( alledgedly) of the perforations.
These strips were designed ( normally ) to contain one letter rate stamp, plus small value stamps to "make up" the purchase to the value of the coin to be used in the machine - for example an 8p letter rate plus 2 x 1p stamp ( use a 10p coin). These were particularly useful if you wanted to post one letter after the post offices were closed. You occasionally see envelopes with a large number of "make up" values when someone wanted to use up all the "left-overs". Machines were often attached to high usage post boxes as well as inset into post office walls.
Multi value coil strips are almost all, all perhaps even all, in the horizontal format, where as single value coils can be horizontal or vertical, depending in the issue.
Mint copies can be identified as the perforations are cut straight by guillotine and have no "tear" marks. Used stamps (in theory) can be identified by the same method - however in my experience soaking 1000s of Machin stamps, the only way to 100% identify single used coil (or booklet) stamps is where the stamps are miscut. Regrettably sticking and soaking these stamps often leads to their having the appearence of sheet stamps, although a few survive mishandling and are reasonably obvious. I am though quite sure that among my thousands of stamps I have a few booklet and coil stamps mis-identified as sheet
Early multi-value coil strips ( or parts thereof) are not uncommon, but all coil and booklet stamps on later issues ( prior to the time when almost all NVI stamps were from booklets) as a proportion of the total are much less. This is almost entirely due to differing patterns of purchasing stamps as well as the general decline in use of stamps overall. Stamps are much more available at non post office outlets with more convenient opening hours.
Unfortunately the convention to collecting Machin stamps is still to collect Mint stamps direct from the post office or via dealers. The number of serious used Machin collectors is quite small, although a number are quite well known and keen to share their finds. We tend to be quite "missionary" in our approach to other collectors, hence posting here at every opportunity.
Malcolm
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
24 Nov 2017
06:06:31am
re: Machin strip perf question
On singles from a coil or booklet, we use one of Doug Myall's inventions the TC system of identification.
We discussed this before so a quick read;
here
or
here
should help.
Login to Like
this post
08:32:25am
re: Machin strip perf question
Charlie
Yes agreed, but I have copies of used stamps which I think may be coil or booklet stamps, but they have "wisps" of paper at the ends of the perfs in the same way as sheet stamps, but which may be there because of the action of sticking the stamp on the envelope, or more likely removing the stamp when the soaking has not quite softened the perfs enough and they have slightly "pulled".
I do have "miscut" stamps which are 100% coil or booklet which exhibit the same characteristics of "wispy" perforations as set out above.As an example the top perf of the 2p top right in the original post shows an example. Obviously as this is attached in this case it is obvious,but more extreme singles could be problematical.
While some used stamps can be definitely identified as coil or booklet stamps, I am not sure that you can be 100% certain that all our single sheet stamps can be so identified unless there is some other characteristic ( or lack of one) to back it up.
Perhaps it does not matter, as the proportion of surviving coil/booklet stamps to sheet stamps means that probably 99.9% will be sheet stamps, but I do tend to be pedantic.
Malcolm
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Nov 2017
08:04:25pm
re: Machin strip perf question
I guess that, as most things, the wispy factor is a matter of judgement that can be ignored when the cut line is quite even over the entire line of perfs. And fortunately there are often those other characteristics to help in the determination.
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this post