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Europe/Other : Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

 

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Horamakhet
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03 Oct 2017
07:50:47am
Hi to all
The following cinderella is attached to a subscriber only edition of the
"Spanish Testament" by Arthur Keostler

I have never seen another one.

Are there anymore out there.

Regards

HoramakhetImage Not Found

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

03 Oct 2017
11:03:49am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I think here is some information of where the label came from. I wasn't able to find out anything about the label itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Joint_Committee_for_Spanish_Relief

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Horamakhet
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03 Oct 2017
09:50:41pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Hi Michael78651

Thank-you for the link

the foreword in the publication is actually written by the then Duchess of Atholl.

It is interesting to note that Arthur Koestler was at a time imprisioned and under a sentence of death when arrested in the town of Malaga.

I have searched, but have not found any information on this cinderella.

Regards

Franz

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sheepshanks
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04 Oct 2017
09:41:27am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Could not see the image you show but a neat website for information, a little tedious to view (my opinion)
http://libraries.ucsd.edu/speccoll/swstamps/#introduction
Maybe an enquiry to ucsd might elicit further information.

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sheepshanks
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04 Oct 2017
10:01:47am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

OK think this may be your item, go to middle of page just under the headline.
Looks like it could have been an Australian issue but sadly no image.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/22660715

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Horamakhet
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06 Oct 2017
05:17:06am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Hi Sheepshanks

Interesting article, you may be on the right track.

Pity is does not show a picture of the stamp.

To quote a spoonerism " The Thick Plottens"

Horamakhet

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Oldmanemu

06 Oct 2017
05:55:01am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

This may be an image of the cinderella referred to in Sheepshank's article.
Image Not Found

The source of the image can be found on this website.

https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/99597

The Emu

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sheepshanks
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06 Oct 2017
09:08:37am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

AARRRGGGHHH, just when I thought I was helping. Maybe an email to the repository with an image of the cinderella in question may get an answer.
Neat detective work Stephen.

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Oldmanemu

06 Oct 2017
10:20:31am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

This poster appears to be what the cinderella was based upon.

Image Not Found

A link to the poster can be found here.

http://www.alba-valb.org/resources/lessons/the-spanish-civil-war-poster/the-spanish-civil-war-poster

Thanks sheepshanks and Horamkhet. The Spanish Civil War is one that I never learnt about in school or in later life. I have some understanding now.

Cheers,

The Emu

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sheepshanks
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06 Oct 2017
10:51:06am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

@The Emu, Hey that's a really neat tie-in to the stamp, maybe the basis of an exhibit in the future.
Nice find.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

06 Oct 2017
10:52:15am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

the Spanish civil war is fascinating on a number of fronts, not least of them the abundance of Cinderellas emanating from all sides. I believe that it is the most verdant Cinderella arena ever, certainly in such a small time and space.

It's also fascinating for the military tactics that were put into use. Large scale civilian bombing had been theory since the first world war, but was finally put to the test in somewhat limited fashion here, Guernica most famously. But far more important, although no one was apparently watching, were the German combined arms maneuvers that would devastate Polish, French, and Soviet armies in a few short years.

Before Munich, the French and British had all the resources necessary to stop the little Austrian brown shirt. They noted his voracious appetite, but not the tactics he used to feed it. They learned all the wrong lessons, as usual.


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Horamakhet
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08 Oct 2017
07:46:11am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I have written to the War Memorial in Canberra to see if they have any details

Keep watching this space

Horamakhet

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Horamakhet
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27 Oct 2017
06:05:27pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I Have finally got a response from the War Museum in Canberra Australia.

They confirmed that Australians served in the Spanish Civil War, and some got killed

They do not have a copy of the Cinderella, nor have they ever seen one of this design.

This could turn out to be a very valuable Spanish Civil War Cinderella.

The Thick plottens, to quote Spooner.

Regards

Horamakhet

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Oct 2017
04:13:48pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I don't see the link between this poster stamp and Australians. Can you explain?

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sheepshanks
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28 Oct 2017
08:52:54pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

David (amsd) I think that is my fault. Having found the newspaper article (link in post above) from Sydney, Australia which mentioned but did not illustrate a 3d stamp issued to aid the relief effort.
It could in all possibility have been issued anywhere in the Commonwealth that was still using sterling as a currency.
The probability is that it was a donation stamp from one of the countries whose troops participated in the action.
I have still not been able to find a comparable image although a lot on other forums have disappeared due to the photobucket problem.
Not sure if there is a catalogue of Australian cinderellas but maybe one of our down under members would know.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

29 Oct 2017
12:09:33pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Victor, anything you can do to illustrate the connection would be welcome. I love Cinderellas in general, and have a soft spot for Aussies (never met one yet I didn't adore), and, am fascinated by all things military.

David

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roy
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29 Oct 2017
01:13:42pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Some internet research did not disclose any Australian connection, in fact it suggests that it is more likely that the book was mailed in the UK, which is where it was published.

The following links may be useful:

Wikipedia article about the book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Testament

NY Times review of the book:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/01/02/specials/koestler-death.html

The book itself in pdf (might not be complete - the book is reported to be 384 pages, but this is only 48 double pages):
http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/netzquelle/a78-00739/01.pdf

The book available on Abe Books:
https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/spanish-testament/author/koestler-arthur/

Roy

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sheepshanks
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29 Oct 2017
01:19:29pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

David, have tried searching under all sorts of combinations of the words on the stamp and various phrases to do with the civil war.
Have tried Google Image, no joy.
The nearest I could get was the newspaper article at http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/22660715
As usual stymied due to lack of picture.
Does anyone have an Australian, Canadian or GB cinderella catalogue which they could check as I feel sure it was probably one of those countries that issued the stamp.
I'm thinking that the best bet is to contact the archives as they have a number of collections that include stamps. From this link https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/99597?mode=full
Using "Spanish relief stamps" in the search box it comes up with a list of their holdings and a contact email address. Perhaps an enquiry giving a copy of the image may elicit a good reply.

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roy
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29 Oct 2017
01:29:51pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

"The probability is that it was a donation stamp from one of the countries whose troops participated in the action. "



Just to be clear, the only foreign "troops" involved in the Spanish Civil War were all on the Nationalist side (Franco). They were from Germany, Italy and some from Portugal. Due to the Non-Intervention Agreement of 1936 signed by all the European powers, other countries provided aid (short of arms), but not troops. Foreign Loyalist combatants were all civilian volunteers.

More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War

Roy

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sheepshanks
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29 Oct 2017
01:50:04pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Thanks Roy, you are quite correct I should have said citizens not troops.
As an extra the fighters in the original image have letters on their hats. The foreground one has the letters E A L and C and the far right one has what looks like U G T, the latter being the "Union General de Trabajadores" (workers union)

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nigelc
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29 Oct 2017
05:08:25pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

The foreground fighter appears to have the letters "...AI C..." representing the CNT/FAI.

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doomboy
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29 Oct 2017
07:46:10pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

"Just to be clear, the only foreign "troops" involved in the Spanish Civil War were all on the Nationalist side (Franco)... Foreign Loyalist combatants were all civilian volunteers."



Not entirely true. The Soviet Union provided tank crews and pilots to the Republican (Loyalist) forces, and these did see combat - albeit the Russians provided nowhere near as many forces as did the Fascist allies of Franco.

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sheepshanks
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29 Oct 2017
08:01:48pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

"The foreground fighter appears to have the letters "...AI C..." representing the CNT/FAI."



Nigel, that makes sense now, I struggled with that one.
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Oldmanemu

30 Oct 2017
07:55:57am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Well it would appear that the cinderella is of Australian origin.
Image Not Found

Here is the ANU link.


https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/733712948

The Emu

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

30 Oct 2017
08:29:19am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

get enough great minds and, eventually, you get the answer. thanks all for the great ride.

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sheepshanks
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30 Oct 2017
09:31:40am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Well done the emu, does this mean my brain cell can now get some rest. Glad that one is sorted and I guess we all learned a bit more about the civil war.

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malcolm197

01 Nov 2017
07:09:53am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

It is easy to criticise the policies of Britain and France prior to WW2.

People do not realise the fear of the populations regarding the possible repeat of 1914-18 casualties. View the war memorials in any British or French village and look at how many names there are, and consider that number in light of the probable population of the time.Then consider the approximate proportion of males of military age - then look at the casualties as a percentage of that iast number. However horrible the Nazis were, there just wasn't the appetite. The French casualties were even more horrific than the British, and I venture to suggest that the fear of huge numbers again was far more of an incentive for capitulation than the so called defeatism much maligned at the time.

If I may make a suggestion - those historians apt to criticise the actions of populations during this time have never had to face the possibility of the loss of all their male relatives in an armed conflict. In recent times the reaction of The United States populations to the casualties in Viet Nam and Afghanistan give some idea of the feelings, and without wishing to make light of the sufferings of the relatives of the casualties of these conflicts the numbers compared with WW1 are infinitesimal.

I am somewhat an amateur historian, and history is never about events and dates - it is always about people, their trials, attitudes and experiences.

Just as an example consider the Accrington Pals, otherwise known as the 11th Battalian East Lancashire Regiment. The town of Accrington, population 45000 in 1911 raised a complete battalian for service in WW1. At the Battle of Serre ( Battle of Somme first day)they suffered 584 casualties in just over an hour. 865 Accrington men were killed in WW1.If you do the Maths by sex and age, I reckon you are looking at between 10 and 15% of military eligible males - in just one town. Google Accrington Pals for details.

Malcolm

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

01 Nov 2017
09:32:28am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Malcolm,

agreed, in part. Looking at the past from today's perspective alone will not tell us all that we need to know.

However, if Churchill is to be believed, he wrote in his 6-Volume set on the Second World War that he had petitioned the British government and the French to enforce the terms of the Versailles Treaty and put a stop to some of the end-arounds in Germany.

Moreover, Munich Accords not only didn't put a stop to German expansion, it removed the main defensive works on the German east border AND awarded Hitler the Skoda works, which produced the very armor the Germans rode when they annexed the Czech rump.

I understand the fear of a repeat of the First War (although the French appear to have learned utterly nothing from it, being fooled by precisely the same west wing maneuvre that got them 25 years earlier).

David

I should also say that the British and French and Russians were NOT paying attention in Spain or they'd have seen the tactics that the German volunteers were putting to use with terrifying effect.

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malcolm197

03 Nov 2017
11:40:46am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I take the point about Churchill's opinions and attempts to get some movement.

However Winston Churchill was perceived by the GBP ( Great British Public) as something of a warmonger, who stood to make a great deal of money out of rearmament ( not necessarily a fact , but certainly believed by my parents ). The fact that in the event he was proved right "on the night" does not change the public perception. Never let the truth get in the way of political dispute or a good story!

As for the Czech question, politicians often do not look at the long-term implications of short term political or economic gain.

Malcolm,

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

03 Nov 2017
12:34:09pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Malcolm,

It really helps to have an educated and articulated membership, so that one's opinions are enhanced by others' (in this case yours) commentary:

"Churchill was perceived by the GBP ( Great British Public) as something of a warmonger, who stood to make a great deal of money out of rearmament ( not necessarily a fact , but certainly believed by my parents ). "



This is the first time I've heard this despite having read Churchill on Churchill and having seen a significant number of BBC peieces. Our own Bushes, among others, have had similar characterizations by a sometime less than adoring public.

As to your Czech quip,

"politicians often do not look at the long-term implications of short term political or economic gain."

, would that it weren't so damn true so damn often.

David

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Horamakhet
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14 Nov 2017
04:46:35pm
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Hi to all

Thank you for all your help.

It is interesting that the ANU has a block of four, but the Australian War Memorial in Canberra has none.
The copy of the book I have is the complete 384 page edition.

It was originally owned by a person named W. Seymour Stewart.(He or she had beautiful hand writing. )

There is a person who writes articles on Cinderellas for the "Stamp News Australasia".
I have contacted him, but as yet have had no reply.
It will be interesting to see if he comes up with anymore information.
But it is beginning to look like a rare or hard to find cinderella.
More to follow????
HoramakhetHappy

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malcolm197

24 Nov 2017
09:15:29am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

In view of my "Warmonger" comment it is fair to point out that my parent's political views were somewhat left of centre ( an understatement !! ), and were convinced that it was partly Churchill's "fault" that we went to war with Germany. I am quite sure that the "hard left" felt that right up to the time when Germany attacked Russia in 1941, when all of a sudden it was alright.

The problem with historical documents and especially memoirs is that they are inevitably sanitized especially in those relating to individuals raised to sainthood like Churchill. It should be also said that the country had/has a vested interest in perpetuating the " we all pulled together" myth. This is not an anti-Churchill diatribe, as obviously his rhetoric was one of the major factors which led to the aforementioned GBP getting behind the war,after initial distrust which was a reaction against his reputation as a political maverick and turncoat.

While the vast majority of the population did the right thing, there were many Nazi sympathisers, anti-semites, traitors, defeatists, profiteers and black marketeers ( and some of them were part of or connected to "the establishment"), and prior to the fall of France it was no means certain that the "silent majority" would be behind continuation of the war.

It is also perhaps not appreciated in the USA( which is relatively free from extreme politics), that there was, before the war a serious extreme-left v. extreme- right divide in the UK similar to that which led to the Spanish Civil War and the rise of the Nazis, with Fascists and Communists fighting on the streets of East London and elsewhere, and a number of prominent fascists were locked up "for the duration" once the war started.

Malcolm

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

24 Nov 2017
10:46:06am
re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

thanks Malcolm

great to remind us that personal memoirs are, in fact, a way for the author to burnish a legacy

and thanks for the additional insights into a pre-war England.

David

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Horamakhet

03 Oct 2017
07:50:47am

Hi to all
The following cinderella is attached to a subscriber only edition of the
"Spanish Testament" by Arthur Keostler

I have never seen another one.

Are there anymore out there.

Regards

HoramakhetImage Not Found

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
03 Oct 2017
11:03:49am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I think here is some information of where the label came from. I wasn't able to find out anything about the label itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Joint_Committee_for_Spanish_Relief

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Horamakhet

03 Oct 2017
09:50:41pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Hi Michael78651

Thank-you for the link

the foreword in the publication is actually written by the then Duchess of Atholl.

It is interesting to note that Arthur Koestler was at a time imprisioned and under a sentence of death when arrested in the town of Malaga.

I have searched, but have not found any information on this cinderella.

Regards

Franz

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sheepshanks

04 Oct 2017
09:41:27am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Could not see the image you show but a neat website for information, a little tedious to view (my opinion)
http://libraries.ucsd.edu/speccoll/swstamps/#introduction
Maybe an enquiry to ucsd might elicit further information.

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sheepshanks

04 Oct 2017
10:01:47am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

OK think this may be your item, go to middle of page just under the headline.
Looks like it could have been an Australian issue but sadly no image.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/22660715

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Horamakhet

06 Oct 2017
05:17:06am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Hi Sheepshanks

Interesting article, you may be on the right track.

Pity is does not show a picture of the stamp.

To quote a spoonerism " The Thick Plottens"

Horamakhet

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Oldmanemu

06 Oct 2017
05:55:01am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

This may be an image of the cinderella referred to in Sheepshank's article.
Image Not Found

The source of the image can be found on this website.

https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/99597

The Emu

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sheepshanks

06 Oct 2017
09:08:37am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

AARRRGGGHHH, just when I thought I was helping. Maybe an email to the repository with an image of the cinderella in question may get an answer.
Neat detective work Stephen.

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Oldmanemu

06 Oct 2017
10:20:31am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

This poster appears to be what the cinderella was based upon.

Image Not Found

A link to the poster can be found here.

http://www.alba-valb.org/resources/lessons/the-spanish-civil-war-poster/the-spanish-civil-war-poster

Thanks sheepshanks and Horamkhet. The Spanish Civil War is one that I never learnt about in school or in later life. I have some understanding now.

Cheers,

The Emu

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sheepshanks

06 Oct 2017
10:51:06am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

@The Emu, Hey that's a really neat tie-in to the stamp, maybe the basis of an exhibit in the future.
Nice find.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
06 Oct 2017
10:52:15am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

the Spanish civil war is fascinating on a number of fronts, not least of them the abundance of Cinderellas emanating from all sides. I believe that it is the most verdant Cinderella arena ever, certainly in such a small time and space.

It's also fascinating for the military tactics that were put into use. Large scale civilian bombing had been theory since the first world war, but was finally put to the test in somewhat limited fashion here, Guernica most famously. But far more important, although no one was apparently watching, were the German combined arms maneuvers that would devastate Polish, French, and Soviet armies in a few short years.

Before Munich, the French and British had all the resources necessary to stop the little Austrian brown shirt. They noted his voracious appetite, but not the tactics he used to feed it. They learned all the wrong lessons, as usual.


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Horamakhet

08 Oct 2017
07:46:11am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I have written to the War Memorial in Canberra to see if they have any details

Keep watching this space

Horamakhet

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Horamakhet

27 Oct 2017
06:05:27pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I Have finally got a response from the War Museum in Canberra Australia.

They confirmed that Australians served in the Spanish Civil War, and some got killed

They do not have a copy of the Cinderella, nor have they ever seen one of this design.

This could turn out to be a very valuable Spanish Civil War Cinderella.

The Thick plottens, to quote Spooner.

Regards

Horamakhet

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Oct 2017
04:13:48pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I don't see the link between this poster stamp and Australians. Can you explain?

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sheepshanks

28 Oct 2017
08:52:54pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

David (amsd) I think that is my fault. Having found the newspaper article (link in post above) from Sydney, Australia which mentioned but did not illustrate a 3d stamp issued to aid the relief effort.
It could in all possibility have been issued anywhere in the Commonwealth that was still using sterling as a currency.
The probability is that it was a donation stamp from one of the countries whose troops participated in the action.
I have still not been able to find a comparable image although a lot on other forums have disappeared due to the photobucket problem.
Not sure if there is a catalogue of Australian cinderellas but maybe one of our down under members would know.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
29 Oct 2017
12:09:33pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Victor, anything you can do to illustrate the connection would be welcome. I love Cinderellas in general, and have a soft spot for Aussies (never met one yet I didn't adore), and, am fascinated by all things military.

David

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29 Oct 2017
01:13:42pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Some internet research did not disclose any Australian connection, in fact it suggests that it is more likely that the book was mailed in the UK, which is where it was published.

The following links may be useful:

Wikipedia article about the book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Testament

NY Times review of the book:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/01/02/specials/koestler-death.html

The book itself in pdf (might not be complete - the book is reported to be 384 pages, but this is only 48 double pages):
http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/netzquelle/a78-00739/01.pdf

The book available on Abe Books:
https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/spanish-testament/author/koestler-arthur/

Roy

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sheepshanks

29 Oct 2017
01:19:29pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

David, have tried searching under all sorts of combinations of the words on the stamp and various phrases to do with the civil war.
Have tried Google Image, no joy.
The nearest I could get was the newspaper article at http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/22660715
As usual stymied due to lack of picture.
Does anyone have an Australian, Canadian or GB cinderella catalogue which they could check as I feel sure it was probably one of those countries that issued the stamp.
I'm thinking that the best bet is to contact the archives as they have a number of collections that include stamps. From this link https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/99597?mode=full
Using "Spanish relief stamps" in the search box it comes up with a list of their holdings and a contact email address. Perhaps an enquiry giving a copy of the image may elicit a good reply.

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29 Oct 2017
01:29:51pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

"The probability is that it was a donation stamp from one of the countries whose troops participated in the action. "



Just to be clear, the only foreign "troops" involved in the Spanish Civil War were all on the Nationalist side (Franco). They were from Germany, Italy and some from Portugal. Due to the Non-Intervention Agreement of 1936 signed by all the European powers, other countries provided aid (short of arms), but not troops. Foreign Loyalist combatants were all civilian volunteers.

More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War

Roy

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sheepshanks

29 Oct 2017
01:50:04pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Thanks Roy, you are quite correct I should have said citizens not troops.
As an extra the fighters in the original image have letters on their hats. The foreground one has the letters E A L and C and the far right one has what looks like U G T, the latter being the "Union General de Trabajadores" (workers union)

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nigelc

29 Oct 2017
05:08:25pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

The foreground fighter appears to have the letters "...AI C..." representing the CNT/FAI.

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doomboy

29 Oct 2017
07:46:10pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

"Just to be clear, the only foreign "troops" involved in the Spanish Civil War were all on the Nationalist side (Franco)... Foreign Loyalist combatants were all civilian volunteers."



Not entirely true. The Soviet Union provided tank crews and pilots to the Republican (Loyalist) forces, and these did see combat - albeit the Russians provided nowhere near as many forces as did the Fascist allies of Franco.

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sheepshanks

29 Oct 2017
08:01:48pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

"The foreground fighter appears to have the letters "...AI C..." representing the CNT/FAI."



Nigel, that makes sense now, I struggled with that one.
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Oldmanemu

30 Oct 2017
07:55:57am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Well it would appear that the cinderella is of Australian origin.
Image Not Found

Here is the ANU link.


https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/733712948

The Emu

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
30 Oct 2017
08:29:19am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

get enough great minds and, eventually, you get the answer. thanks all for the great ride.

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sheepshanks

30 Oct 2017
09:31:40am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Well done the emu, does this mean my brain cell can now get some rest. Glad that one is sorted and I guess we all learned a bit more about the civil war.

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malcolm197

01 Nov 2017
07:09:53am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

It is easy to criticise the policies of Britain and France prior to WW2.

People do not realise the fear of the populations regarding the possible repeat of 1914-18 casualties. View the war memorials in any British or French village and look at how many names there are, and consider that number in light of the probable population of the time.Then consider the approximate proportion of males of military age - then look at the casualties as a percentage of that iast number. However horrible the Nazis were, there just wasn't the appetite. The French casualties were even more horrific than the British, and I venture to suggest that the fear of huge numbers again was far more of an incentive for capitulation than the so called defeatism much maligned at the time.

If I may make a suggestion - those historians apt to criticise the actions of populations during this time have never had to face the possibility of the loss of all their male relatives in an armed conflict. In recent times the reaction of The United States populations to the casualties in Viet Nam and Afghanistan give some idea of the feelings, and without wishing to make light of the sufferings of the relatives of the casualties of these conflicts the numbers compared with WW1 are infinitesimal.

I am somewhat an amateur historian, and history is never about events and dates - it is always about people, their trials, attitudes and experiences.

Just as an example consider the Accrington Pals, otherwise known as the 11th Battalian East Lancashire Regiment. The town of Accrington, population 45000 in 1911 raised a complete battalian for service in WW1. At the Battle of Serre ( Battle of Somme first day)they suffered 584 casualties in just over an hour. 865 Accrington men were killed in WW1.If you do the Maths by sex and age, I reckon you are looking at between 10 and 15% of military eligible males - in just one town. Google Accrington Pals for details.

Malcolm

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
01 Nov 2017
09:32:28am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Malcolm,

agreed, in part. Looking at the past from today's perspective alone will not tell us all that we need to know.

However, if Churchill is to be believed, he wrote in his 6-Volume set on the Second World War that he had petitioned the British government and the French to enforce the terms of the Versailles Treaty and put a stop to some of the end-arounds in Germany.

Moreover, Munich Accords not only didn't put a stop to German expansion, it removed the main defensive works on the German east border AND awarded Hitler the Skoda works, which produced the very armor the Germans rode when they annexed the Czech rump.

I understand the fear of a repeat of the First War (although the French appear to have learned utterly nothing from it, being fooled by precisely the same west wing maneuvre that got them 25 years earlier).

David

I should also say that the British and French and Russians were NOT paying attention in Spain or they'd have seen the tactics that the German volunteers were putting to use with terrifying effect.

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malcolm197

03 Nov 2017
11:40:46am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

I take the point about Churchill's opinions and attempts to get some movement.

However Winston Churchill was perceived by the GBP ( Great British Public) as something of a warmonger, who stood to make a great deal of money out of rearmament ( not necessarily a fact , but certainly believed by my parents ). The fact that in the event he was proved right "on the night" does not change the public perception. Never let the truth get in the way of political dispute or a good story!

As for the Czech question, politicians often do not look at the long-term implications of short term political or economic gain.

Malcolm,

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
03 Nov 2017
12:34:09pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Malcolm,

It really helps to have an educated and articulated membership, so that one's opinions are enhanced by others' (in this case yours) commentary:

"Churchill was perceived by the GBP ( Great British Public) as something of a warmonger, who stood to make a great deal of money out of rearmament ( not necessarily a fact , but certainly believed by my parents ). "



This is the first time I've heard this despite having read Churchill on Churchill and having seen a significant number of BBC peieces. Our own Bushes, among others, have had similar characterizations by a sometime less than adoring public.

As to your Czech quip,

"politicians often do not look at the long-term implications of short term political or economic gain."

, would that it weren't so damn true so damn often.

David

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Horamakhet

14 Nov 2017
04:46:35pm

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

Hi to all

Thank you for all your help.

It is interesting that the ANU has a block of four, but the Australian War Memorial in Canberra has none.
The copy of the book I have is the complete 384 page edition.

It was originally owned by a person named W. Seymour Stewart.(He or she had beautiful hand writing. )

There is a person who writes articles on Cinderellas for the "Stamp News Australasia".
I have contacted him, but as yet have had no reply.
It will be interesting to see if he comes up with anymore information.
But it is beginning to look like a rare or hard to find cinderella.
More to follow????
HoramakhetHappy

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malcolm197

24 Nov 2017
09:15:29am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

In view of my "Warmonger" comment it is fair to point out that my parent's political views were somewhat left of centre ( an understatement !! ), and were convinced that it was partly Churchill's "fault" that we went to war with Germany. I am quite sure that the "hard left" felt that right up to the time when Germany attacked Russia in 1941, when all of a sudden it was alright.

The problem with historical documents and especially memoirs is that they are inevitably sanitized especially in those relating to individuals raised to sainthood like Churchill. It should be also said that the country had/has a vested interest in perpetuating the " we all pulled together" myth. This is not an anti-Churchill diatribe, as obviously his rhetoric was one of the major factors which led to the aforementioned GBP getting behind the war,after initial distrust which was a reaction against his reputation as a political maverick and turncoat.

While the vast majority of the population did the right thing, there were many Nazi sympathisers, anti-semites, traitors, defeatists, profiteers and black marketeers ( and some of them were part of or connected to "the establishment"), and prior to the fall of France it was no means certain that the "silent majority" would be behind continuation of the war.

It is also perhaps not appreciated in the USA( which is relatively free from extreme politics), that there was, before the war a serious extreme-left v. extreme- right divide in the UK similar to that which led to the Spanish Civil War and the rise of the Nazis, with Fascists and Communists fighting on the streets of East London and elsewhere, and a number of prominent fascists were locked up "for the duration" once the war started.

Malcolm

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
24 Nov 2017
10:46:06am

re: Spanish Civil War Cinderella 1937 or 1938

thanks Malcolm

great to remind us that personal memoirs are, in fact, a way for the author to burnish a legacy

and thanks for the additional insights into a pre-war England.

David

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