Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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To be honest I have never found any colour key or wheel to be very useful to distinguish shades.
There are many more shades than there are on any colour key, we all see colours ( especially males) somewhat differently, and solid colour often tricks the eye to seeing a different shade on thin lines or dots ( such as recess stamps as opposed to photogravure ).Also paper differences, poor colour matching of inks and temperature when printing can affect the finished article. However a catalogued shade always signifies a specific,identifiable set of circumstances leading to the production of a unique shade.
In my opinion the only foolproof way is to compare your stamp with a known identified copy (if a rare stamp one with a certificate).
In my previous post on the 17p deep blue Machin there is an oblique reference to the grey-blue (steel blue to be precise). The most detailed catalogues only mention 2 or 3 shades, but from experience I can tell you that there are at least 20, including differing shades of head and background and both. As these have been soaked by me from office mail received at the office of my employer ( and certifiably not been exposed to sunlight or chemical interference ) they are definitely different !
Malcolm
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Sometimes you can do a search for items at Stamp Auction Network and the Philatelic Foundation (Ireland)
In most cases, determining shades depends on personal experience more than anything else.
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This doesn't always work, but in some cases you can find one contemporary stamp that was only printed in one color and another that was only printed in the other color. For example, the color oddity U.S. 233a (blue instead of ultramarine) can be detected by comparing to 230 which was printed in blue. Another possibility that sometimes works for type difference but CAN occasionaly work for color differences, is plate number singles if it isn't a high CV stamp. Other than that, I'm lost. Color differentiation is definitely NOT a strong suit for me! I have a Scott Specialized 19th Century Color Guide and I have never been able to make a definitive determination. It's just a handicap I have to accept and from my understanding, males tend to be less likely to discern subtle differences in color.
Lars
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"Color differentiation is definitely NOT a strong suit for me! I have a Scott Specialized 19th Century Color Guide and I have never been able to make a definitive determination. It's just a handicap I have to accept and from my understanding, males tend to be less likely to discern subtle differences in color. "
I don't think this is solely down to you. I have found that colour descriptions differ between Scott and Gibbons which doesn't help matters (for example, for stamps printed in lilacs, violets and mauves).
Furthermore, just Gibbons itself uses some completely bizarre colour descriptions within the same definitive sets. Just yesterday I was trying to distinguish between dull reddish violet and reddish violet, using unhinged mint copies. The colours bore no resemblance to the catalogue descriptions at all. So I've just given up and will have to wait to obtain good quality dated used copies for a colour match.
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For selling purposes I always use the lowest catalog valuation unless I have enough good copies to be absolutely certain - and then if they are expensive I run them by a couple of dealers I am friends with who are good at color....
In doing this I have noticed that in some cases using the Scott catalog the lowest priced color variation will be an "a" or "b" number so you can't just go to the main number - I have no idea why they would do that and if is infrequent. For example Scott #29 might catalog 50 cents but there might be a color variation #29a that catalogs only 30 cents. The first time I ran across that I had to triple check it........
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As far as comparing colour with another stamp in the same colour it is given that it must be the same colour and preferably printed by the same printer.
Depending on how "tight" the specification issued by the postal authority is, the specific "mix" of inks may differ between printers. These days I think most postal services have extremely narrow specifications for everything - paper,ink, paper coatings etc, but I think in times past things were much more lax ( and in fact the ability to work to todays exacting detail wass not always technically possible.)
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I wrote:
"Just yesterday I was trying to distinguish between dull reddish violet and reddish violet, using unhinged mint copies. The colours bore no resemblance to the catalogue descriptions at all."
Here's the exact comparison I was attempting. Using this array of Hong Kong $2 definitives, which according to S.G. should be Reddish Violet. Note only one shade is listed.
Below these are two 10 cent values, which according to S.G. should be either Dull Reddish Violet OR Reddish Lilac.
All these were printed either in 1946 or 1947 by the same printer.
So it was at this point I gave up, as neither 10 cent values bear any resemblance to the (single) colour shade listed for the $2, which is not helped by the apparent four distinct shades that I can see.
Edit:
Making a tentative guess that the leftmost 10 cent value is the Dull Reddish Violet, the spanner in the works is the 10 cent on the right. If this is a Reddish Lilac, then shouldn't it have some reddish tone of the nearest color listed; the $10 Pale Bright Lilac? (unfortunately there are no other Reddish Lilacs within the whole definitive set to compare):
Even if my guess is reversed, the comparison then becomes totally confusing; at least to my eyes.
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try this ...
http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/Color_Extract.html
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It seems to me that SG is not very consistent with colour variation listings in different countries. For Hong Kong I prefer to use Yang's catalogue and I will quote from the 24th Edition (2015). The George VI definitives are split into three sections: 1938, 1941-6 P.14, and 1946.
The $2 from 1946 is listed as:
166 $2 Bright violet and scarlet
166a $2 Violet and scarlet
While the 10c is listed as:
158 10c Violet
158a 10c Pale dull violet
The $10 varieties are:
168 $10 Bright violet and blue
168a $10 Reddish violet and blue
Hope this is of some help!
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Thanks for the Yang references. I do in fact have the catalogue but in view of their colour descriptions, this just seems to muddy the water across the whole part of the violet spectrum in the catalogues. Although Yang is at least consistent on the 10 cent values, in that there is only the colour 'violet' used.
Note that Yang does not use the term 'reddish', apart from the $10 (168a); which is correct in this instance.
In fact the two $10 values listed by Yang should now be three. SG have revised their listing to expand the single (Yang) 'Bright Violet & Blue' to two shades. However, the colours they use are:
Pale Bright Lilac & Blue and Deep Bright Lilac & Blue. * Note they can't agree on the primary colour. No wonder there is confusion.
* This catalogue revision by SG is quite correct, based on the copies I have.
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Have you looked at the Murray Payne catalogue?
I don't know what it is like for Hong Kong in particular but it appears to be "the bible" for King George VI.
I seem to remember an article some years ago in the Gibbons Stamp Monthly (or perhaps in Stamp Magazine) where there was an article by Murray Payne on a high value Leeward Islands stamp where all the stamps were illustrated in colour and matched with every seperate print run by date. If this has been done for all the values of all KG6 stamps it might be worth looking for it.
Malcolm
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"Have you looked at the Murray Payne catalogue?"
By some coincidence I have just received a 2008 edition directly from Murray Payne, for the princely sum of £1 (£4.50 P&P). Although this is not a colour version, at least it deviates from the colour descriptions used by SG:
The two 10 cent copies I posted, are according to Payne: Reddish Lilac; Pale Lilac.
As for the $2's, Payne favours Violet; Purple-violet.
And for the $10, Payne uses: Pale Violet; Red-violet; and Red-purple..... eliminating SG's Lilac completely.
So, there's certainly an improvement to my eyes, but there still remains a couple of 'grey' areas (or is it purple or lilac, or violet
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01:55:56pm
I cannot afford a color wheel and am wondering how is the easiest way to tell the difference between the colors violet and dull reddish violet?
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02:30:57pm
re: Color difference?
To be honest I have never found any colour key or wheel to be very useful to distinguish shades.
There are many more shades than there are on any colour key, we all see colours ( especially males) somewhat differently, and solid colour often tricks the eye to seeing a different shade on thin lines or dots ( such as recess stamps as opposed to photogravure ).Also paper differences, poor colour matching of inks and temperature when printing can affect the finished article. However a catalogued shade always signifies a specific,identifiable set of circumstances leading to the production of a unique shade.
In my opinion the only foolproof way is to compare your stamp with a known identified copy (if a rare stamp one with a certificate).
In my previous post on the 17p deep blue Machin there is an oblique reference to the grey-blue (steel blue to be precise). The most detailed catalogues only mention 2 or 3 shades, but from experience I can tell you that there are at least 20, including differing shades of head and background and both. As these have been soaked by me from office mail received at the office of my employer ( and certifiably not been exposed to sunlight or chemical interference ) they are definitely different !
Malcolm
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Color difference?
Sometimes you can do a search for items at Stamp Auction Network and the Philatelic Foundation (Ireland)
In most cases, determining shades depends on personal experience more than anything else.
Login to Like
this post
re: Color difference?
This doesn't always work, but in some cases you can find one contemporary stamp that was only printed in one color and another that was only printed in the other color. For example, the color oddity U.S. 233a (blue instead of ultramarine) can be detected by comparing to 230 which was printed in blue. Another possibility that sometimes works for type difference but CAN occasionaly work for color differences, is plate number singles if it isn't a high CV stamp. Other than that, I'm lost. Color differentiation is definitely NOT a strong suit for me! I have a Scott Specialized 19th Century Color Guide and I have never been able to make a definitive determination. It's just a handicap I have to accept and from my understanding, males tend to be less likely to discern subtle differences in color.
Lars
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re: Color difference?
"Color differentiation is definitely NOT a strong suit for me! I have a Scott Specialized 19th Century Color Guide and I have never been able to make a definitive determination. It's just a handicap I have to accept and from my understanding, males tend to be less likely to discern subtle differences in color. "
I don't think this is solely down to you. I have found that colour descriptions differ between Scott and Gibbons which doesn't help matters (for example, for stamps printed in lilacs, violets and mauves).
Furthermore, just Gibbons itself uses some completely bizarre colour descriptions within the same definitive sets. Just yesterday I was trying to distinguish between dull reddish violet and reddish violet, using unhinged mint copies. The colours bore no resemblance to the catalogue descriptions at all. So I've just given up and will have to wait to obtain good quality dated used copies for a colour match.
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07:36:03am
re: Color difference?
For selling purposes I always use the lowest catalog valuation unless I have enough good copies to be absolutely certain - and then if they are expensive I run them by a couple of dealers I am friends with who are good at color....
In doing this I have noticed that in some cases using the Scott catalog the lowest priced color variation will be an "a" or "b" number so you can't just go to the main number - I have no idea why they would do that and if is infrequent. For example Scott #29 might catalog 50 cents but there might be a color variation #29a that catalogs only 30 cents. The first time I ran across that I had to triple check it........
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01:38:59pm
re: Color difference?
As far as comparing colour with another stamp in the same colour it is given that it must be the same colour and preferably printed by the same printer.
Depending on how "tight" the specification issued by the postal authority is, the specific "mix" of inks may differ between printers. These days I think most postal services have extremely narrow specifications for everything - paper,ink, paper coatings etc, but I think in times past things were much more lax ( and in fact the ability to work to todays exacting detail wass not always technically possible.)
Login to Like
this post
re: Color difference?
I wrote:
"Just yesterday I was trying to distinguish between dull reddish violet and reddish violet, using unhinged mint copies. The colours bore no resemblance to the catalogue descriptions at all."
Here's the exact comparison I was attempting. Using this array of Hong Kong $2 definitives, which according to S.G. should be Reddish Violet. Note only one shade is listed.
Below these are two 10 cent values, which according to S.G. should be either Dull Reddish Violet OR Reddish Lilac.
All these were printed either in 1946 or 1947 by the same printer.
So it was at this point I gave up, as neither 10 cent values bear any resemblance to the (single) colour shade listed for the $2, which is not helped by the apparent four distinct shades that I can see.
Edit:
Making a tentative guess that the leftmost 10 cent value is the Dull Reddish Violet, the spanner in the works is the 10 cent on the right. If this is a Reddish Lilac, then shouldn't it have some reddish tone of the nearest color listed; the $10 Pale Bright Lilac? (unfortunately there are no other Reddish Lilacs within the whole definitive set to compare):
Even if my guess is reversed, the comparison then becomes totally confusing; at least to my eyes.
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re: Color difference?
try this ...
http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/Color_Extract.html
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this post
09:12:07am
re: Color difference?
It seems to me that SG is not very consistent with colour variation listings in different countries. For Hong Kong I prefer to use Yang's catalogue and I will quote from the 24th Edition (2015). The George VI definitives are split into three sections: 1938, 1941-6 P.14, and 1946.
The $2 from 1946 is listed as:
166 $2 Bright violet and scarlet
166a $2 Violet and scarlet
While the 10c is listed as:
158 10c Violet
158a 10c Pale dull violet
The $10 varieties are:
168 $10 Bright violet and blue
168a $10 Reddish violet and blue
Hope this is of some help!
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re: Color difference?
Thanks for the Yang references. I do in fact have the catalogue but in view of their colour descriptions, this just seems to muddy the water across the whole part of the violet spectrum in the catalogues. Although Yang is at least consistent on the 10 cent values, in that there is only the colour 'violet' used.
Note that Yang does not use the term 'reddish', apart from the $10 (168a); which is correct in this instance.
In fact the two $10 values listed by Yang should now be three. SG have revised their listing to expand the single (Yang) 'Bright Violet & Blue' to two shades. However, the colours they use are:
Pale Bright Lilac & Blue and Deep Bright Lilac & Blue. * Note they can't agree on the primary colour. No wonder there is confusion.
* This catalogue revision by SG is quite correct, based on the copies I have.
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10:04:55am
re: Color difference?
Have you looked at the Murray Payne catalogue?
I don't know what it is like for Hong Kong in particular but it appears to be "the bible" for King George VI.
I seem to remember an article some years ago in the Gibbons Stamp Monthly (or perhaps in Stamp Magazine) where there was an article by Murray Payne on a high value Leeward Islands stamp where all the stamps were illustrated in colour and matched with every seperate print run by date. If this has been done for all the values of all KG6 stamps it might be worth looking for it.
Malcolm
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this post
re: Color difference?
"Have you looked at the Murray Payne catalogue?"
By some coincidence I have just received a 2008 edition directly from Murray Payne, for the princely sum of £1 (£4.50 P&P). Although this is not a colour version, at least it deviates from the colour descriptions used by SG:
The two 10 cent copies I posted, are according to Payne: Reddish Lilac; Pale Lilac.
As for the $2's, Payne favours Violet; Purple-violet.
And for the $10, Payne uses: Pale Violet; Red-violet; and Red-purple..... eliminating SG's Lilac completely.
So, there's certainly an improvement to my eyes, but there still remains a couple of 'grey' areas (or is it purple or lilac, or violet
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