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Europe/Great Britain : 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

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malcolm197
16 Aug 2017
06:40:56am
This is mentioned on the Adminware site but does not appear in my (oldish) volume of the Connoisseur catalogue, and I cannot find it on the web version, but then this is quite difficult to navigate.

I think I have one , but my eyesight isn't of the best and I can't get the value part close enough to a "standard" copy to clearly make out the difference. I can make out many detail differences at a glance but this one has me beat.As it is loose "off paper" I have no postmark date to help

Are there any measurement "numbers" available, so that I can measure individual copies. I am sure that once I have this confirmed I will be able to id additional copies with ease.

I have googled the internet in the hope that I can find a side-by-side comparison to look at without success. I have even looked on Charlie's "Machin Forum" but I am unable to find it - there is so much on there it is sometimes like looking for a needle in a haystack (but I am sure it must be there somewhere). BTW I can heartily recommend the site as a Machin resource.(Note to self). I must find time to paper-copy index the information on that site by value to make it easier to find stuff.

Any thoughts would be welcome. Thanks.

Malcolm
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sheepshanks
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16 Aug 2017
04:57:33pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

The Admin site seems to infer that it is only the letter "p" that is thin, not the value, and only on the centre band stamp.
I have been through a couple of hundred copies and the scan below shows the only differences I can find.
It appears that the lower curve of the P where it meets the upright is thinner than normal, the stamp on the right being the thinner one.
I have been unable to find any images on the web to confirm but maybe Charlie or one of our other Machin experts will weigh in with a better image of the difference.
Image Not Found
Looking at my image it does appear that the 7 is different in size on the top bar as well?

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phos45
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https://machinstudygroup.blogspot.ca/
16 Aug 2017
07:06:27pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Image Not Found

T3 are from booklets acp or fcp 2B

you are best to order a deegam CD ...


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sheepshanks
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16 Aug 2017
07:20:51pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Phos, is it your image that's pale or are your images of the light grey/blue rather than the dark blue.
The Adminware site information is as follows, and does not relate to coil stamps. Is the Deegam detail different?

Centre band phosphor
FCP Sep 4/90 Sheets Dex
FCP screened value Sep 4/90 Sheets Dex
FCP Sep 17/90 Coil, vert Dex
FCP thin 'P' Jun 91 Sheets Dex
FCP thin 'P'; screened value Jun 91 Sheets Dex

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phos45
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https://machinstudygroup.blogspot.ca/
17 Aug 2017
12:54:51pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Dark blue
DG 170.9 FCP(H)/DEX CB A 4 Harrison Photogravure
.3 T3a/B2 U Sheets 19 6.91 ?
.3a T3a/B2 U Sheets screened value 19 6.91 ?

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sheepshanks
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17 Aug 2017
01:13:51pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Ok think I can read that right but do you have an image to show the difference, is it just the "p" or the numerals as well that are larger ?
Presume the 3a refers just to the "p" and the "B2" refers to head shape.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Aug 2017
08:09:36pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)


There are some clues to identifying the differences between the 17p Dark Blue issues.
There are three types of values. However the Type 1 is easily seen in the Pastel Green, 170.1, as all are Type 1s.
And all of the Olive Green, DG170.13, are Type 3s.
So examples of these two can be used to help match up a suspected "T 3" Dark Blue.

Of the T-3s, DG 170.9, all are from sheets and printing direction is "U" .( upright)
Any DG 170.9 cancelled prior to September 1990 is a T 2
DG170.9.2 is from a coil.

The shafts of the "1" and the "7" on the Type 2s are a mm or so wider. Use comparisons to sort and take an otherwise useless "T 2", cut horizontally through the center of the value so that that can be placed over suspect stamps to be identified

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
sheepshanks
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17 Aug 2017
09:25:32pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Thanks cdj for the explanation but does that mean that the Adminware site is giving us false information?

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phos45
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https://machinstudygroup.blogspot.ca/
19 Aug 2017
10:36:16am
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Image Not Foundacid etched Harrison machins offer many plate flaws ... SGS catalog lists many. here are some from my collection

https://gbmachex.blogspot.ca/search?q=17p

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malcolm197
19 Aug 2017
01:28:22pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

I'm back- and typically I have lost all the 17p stamps I was examining ( hopefully only temporarily mislaid ).

However in view of the suggestion re cutting a useless stamp, I have carried out another experiment.

The 15 1/2p pale violet stamp comes in thin and thick value types ( illustrated in the Connoisseur catalogue). I have cut a damaged stamp with the postmark clear of the value horizontally through the top half of the value. On checking this by superimposing this cut stamp on undamaged stamps I find I can cut the time taken to work out which version it is by about 75%.

I have done a stock take on some unchecked copies, and not only is it possible to make the savings in time noted above, but by adjusting the order of flow of checking I think I can cut down on the use of ultra violet light too. The majority of stamps with differing sizes and positions only come in a limited number of band or phosphor variations, so if I cut all the stamps in this manner many of them need not require the use of a lamp at all - so battery cost can be reduced. Win win all round.

I am really grateful for the tip which will make life much easier.

Malcolm

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
21 Aug 2017
06:13:54am
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

: ... On checking this by superimposing this cut stamp on undamaged stamps I find I can cut the time taken to work out which version it is by about 75%. ....

To make using a trimmed stamp even easier to manipulate, I cut a piece of card stock, about 3/8th inch wide, 3" or 4"s long, and than glue the trimmed stamp on the end so that the part I want to use hangs off the end a little. That way, I can move it around over the suspect stamp handily. Often I then take a small piece of Scotch tape to reinforce where the un-needed part of the trimmed stamp connects to the cardboad so that, once made, the tool can be kept in a small box for the next time I am working on that value. After a while I have a series of such handmade tools.
On some cardboard strips I have stamps with two different perfs, one at each end that also makes identification easier because after checking a dozen or two with a gauge the eyes seem to get squirrely..
Since Deegam's measurement for a value setting can vary somewhat within about +/- o.25 mm ( ΒΌ mm) I can find the largest and smallest float. (In my world that makes two different stamps) Beyond the arbitrary 0.25 a + is used. and o.25 is usually visible to the naked eye. That is all explained in detail in Chapter 12, pages 26 to 34 of the DCMH. A technical section, like the fine print at the front of Scott's and SG catalogs, read only by few, when desperate for answers..

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
malcolm197
21 Aug 2017
10:12:17am
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

I have just made another tool for high and low head types on head B of pre decimal Machin stamps(Head B1 and B2).

I have cut vertically right of the value and slightly to the right of the front point of the bust. Superimposing the right side of the cut shows the B1 and B2 variation, while as a bonus superimposing the left side shows Head A from head B. Two for the price of one!

However I destroyed about 5 damaged copies before I arrived at the optimum place to cut. Do you think I can take out a patent ?

Malcolm

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sheepshanks
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21 Aug 2017
10:40:28am
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

So have we decided whether it is the whole value that is a different size or just the p? If the former maybe the Adminware site should be informed that they have it wrong.
Hopefully they will be members of StampoRama and read this.

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phos45
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21 Aug 2017
01:00:38pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

diagonal method - value settingsImage Not Found

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sheepshanks
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21 Aug 2017
10:03:07pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Thanks Phos for the illustrations but which one refers to the 17p dark blue?
Do the diagonal lines bisect the centre of the stamp, ie corner to diagonally opposite corner? (bc to ad)
Are the lines from internal or external points of the frame line or from the corner of the stamp including perforations?
Regarding the "H" and "V" measurements, again are these from the inside or outside edge of the frame line and what actual sizes are the Norm?
Maybe you could give us (me) an image of the two sizes of the 17p dark blue, it wwould be appreciated and make life much clearer.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
22 Aug 2017
11:48:08am
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

From the corner of the stamps to the bottom of the "P", the line misses the "7".
From the corner of the stamps to the bottom of the "P", the line touches the "7".
From the corner of the stamps to the bottom of the "7", the line extended misses the "P".
From the corner of the stamps to the bottom of the "P", the line touches the "7".
From the corner of the stamps to the bottom of the "P", the line crosses the "7".
Where the line extended ends up is another thing.There may be some variability in close. much .
The angle varies and is not so important, it is where the line crosses the contact points or misses thdem
There are many other stamps with similar ways to spot differences.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
sheepshanks
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22 Aug 2017
02:22:31pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Thanks Charlie, so the right hand of Phos's images were irrelevant for the purposes of determining the type.
Now if I'm reading your reply correctly it is the placement of the value and P that vary rather than the size of either.
So, coming back to Adminwares statement that it is the p that is sized different rather than the value placement what is Deegams position or is it that the placement of the whole value is different but is actually the same size.
Sorry if I seem to be being a bit thick but I can see the thick/thin values in the likes of the 1p and 2p etc but am not really able to distinguish any great difference in the 17p dark blue.
Have gone through a few hundred used copies but have found none with a pre 1991 date. (in fact very few with a date at all)
Thanks again for your help, even though it was not my post to start with.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
22 Aug 2017
05:55:01pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Here is another "yes, no and maybe" situation.

" ... so the right hand of Phos's images were irrelevant for the purposes of determining the type. ..."
Yes unless you, or someone else notices some other clever way of determining different variations.

"... Now if I'm reading your reply correctly it is the placement of the value and P that vary rather than the size of either...."
To coin a phrase, "Size matters" it is just that he has found a way of sorting one from another quickly and to some degree more easily.

"... coming back to Adminware's statement that it is the p that is sized different rather than the value placement what is Deegams position or is it that the placement of the whole value is different but is actually the same size...."
Mack's illustrations with the lines drawn in are from the CDMH pgD170-2
Alongside each illustrations are he following;
"T-1, thin elements, figures close together,straight "7".
"T-2,Thicker "p", figures wider apart, figures wider apart, curved "7".
and,
"T-3, as type 32, but thinner letter "p" ...."


Adminware lists under 17p dark Blue, Photogravure, five varieties;
Centre band phosphor
FCP Sep 4/90 Sheets
FCP screened value Sep 4/90 Sheets
FCP Sep 17/90 Coil, vert
FCP thin 'P' Jun 91 Sheets
FCP thin 'p' screened value Jun 91 Sheets


" .... Sorry if I seem to be being a bit thick but I can see the thick/thin values in the likes of the 1p and 2p etc but am not really able to distinguish any great difference in the 17p dark blue. ...."

To coin another phrase, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." "Cool Hand Luke."
I, and others, have been explaining what is obvious and missing the actual question. In neither source is the apparently slightly wider shafts of the Dark Blue CB listed. There is a slight variation but, in Deegam Speak, it is not enough to earn a listing, and may be as much an optical illusion as an actual measurement. Possibly caused by a difference in the amount of ink on the plate as the sheet is printed.
It is the pastel green that has the "thinner elements" note . Adminware separates the T-1 Pastel Green issue from the T-2 and T-3, Gray Blue, Dark Blue or Olive Green 17p stamps

And on the bright side, we all know more about noting and understanding how to determine minor differences between similar stamp issues.


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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
sheepshanks
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22 Aug 2017
07:24:09pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Thank you Charlie for your erudite thoughts and bearing with an old codger, I have cut a 17p blue/grey to show as a type 2 and attached it to some cardboard and will hopefully now be able to proceed in the right direction.
Ps. Not easy trying to line up the scalpel and ruler, using a magnifying glass at the same time as allowing for blade width.
Thanks again.

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jthurd
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24 Aug 2017
05:44:42pm
re: 17p deep blue narrow value (June 1991 from sheets)

Thanks to the first poster and those who replies for a very enjoyable and insightful thread!

I learned a few things which will aid in present and future sorting.

The knowledge, experience, and wisdom shared on this board is worthwhile.

JTH

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