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Europe/Other : Italian States Parmensi 80

 

Author
Postings
Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
08:49:29pm
Image Not FoundDear Expert,

I have stamps from my collection that a receiving "No opinions" from a well known expertising firm. One of which is an Italian States Stati Parmensi 80 stamp from 1859. I was informed that their confidence to certify the parmensi is not for them but elsewear and it seems many experts, although to believe it's genuine, are fearful to be the final decision makers to certify it. Attached is the scan. However, I only have the front to send until they are returned to me as I have only taken snapshots of the fronts before I sent them for expertization, but for now, can you please give me your valued expert advise on what you think I have here?

The parmensi 80 stamp I had several experts examine. One of which is a forgery expert Evert Klaseboer which has published writings on Italian states forgeries. He said that the stamp is absolutely genuine, however I needed to have the cancel expertised because he felt that it was genuine as well but couldn't be conclusive. I have examined this stamp Intensively. Have taken it to several stamp shows. It has resided in the collection for over 100 years passed down over and over. I believe 100 percent it is genuine as well for several reasons including some notes market by various experts.

The actual stamp itself pretty much isn't questionable I was told.

1.) The "R" in Parmensi end is shorter as the genuines.
2.) Opening/gap on right frame can be seen that it's opened by the 2 white dots under the cancel ink where no yellow is shown.
3.) The Cancel ink postmark was done with metal by clearly the sharp edges.
4.) The Cancel ink flowed off of oily stamp ink or is not laying in impression where it defines the edges done by typographic printing and maybe the thumb rubbed it off at some point.
5.) The stamps were still used until the end of February 1860, but very seldom, and why would a forger risk such a late date.
6.) Why would a forger smear and make the center month date (27) it so dark to devalue it.
7.) Why was it hinged for long time in an album if it was meant to be sold. I would assume they couldn't see the future orly it's rarity..Happy.
8.) Ink was really dark..why would a forger want a really dark ink to ruin stamp and risk the high probability to disqualify it as genuine.
9.) The ink is oily like painting latex paint on top of oil based paint. The first issues were oily cancel ink also, folks wiped off ink back then for reuse, and then eventually grills to soak it up and at sime point a more pourous ink was used. They do not make the oily ink nowadays so it would of adhered to the oily stamps letters better. However, the ink runs off where fingers may have been or just ran off due to the oiliness of both.
10.) Back then the forgers would not have known how high of value they would be today.

I apologize for the long email but I would be so grateful for your opinion.

Thank you,

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

07 Aug 2017
09:25:01pm
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

I don't know what you want us to say, especially since you say you had the expert in Italian States look at the stamp and he rendered his opinion, and several other experts as well.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
09:41:26pm
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

I don't want to keep wasting my time sending this stamp out. The last expertising firm took close to 4 months. I feel the more concrete evidence I gather the better and/or negative evidence as well so I do not waste my time and especially nail biting nerves. So let's just pretend I didn't have any other experts give advice yet. Can any of you see anything of a red flag? And if not, where can I go to have this certified?

Best regards and thank you.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

07 Aug 2017
10:06:54pm
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

You already said that those who are the experts on these stamps have looked at them, and pretty much gave you the same answer, including the one who wrote the book on these stamps. Where else can the stamp be sent? Seems that this is more of you not getting the answer that you want.

Maybe one of the members here is a hidden expert on these stamps too. I don't know if you'd get a different answer this time, though, especially since no one here will actually have the subject in-hand.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
10:10:44pm
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Lol..that's true..that would be nice for their to be a hidden expert on here.I am somewhat a skeptic so you are right. I am not getting a straight answer no matter what, even if they "feel" it's genuine, no one seems to want to take the responsibility of expertising it, and understandably so, as it is quite a touchy subject with so many forgeries out there. I suppose I am looking for the "concrete" evidence in either direction..and would love to know where it can be sent.

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Revstampman

07 Aug 2017
11:30:37pm
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Send it to Sergio Sismondo http://www.sismondostamps.com/exp/expert.htm
He is recognized World Wide as THE expert on Italian States.
I have never heard of anyone questioning one of his certificates and they are accepted by every auction house.
If you can catch him at a show he will give you a verbal opinion if he is not busy.

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Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
11:40:54pm
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Revstampman,

Let me say, thank you, thank you, thank you!. I have searched endlessly from foundation after foundation sending emails inquiring about this. You have just made my day, or night, literally. I KNEW there had to be one special person to help me here. Thank you truly..Happy.

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Mavakay78

08 Aug 2017
09:40:51am
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Revstampman,
I actually personally spoke to Mr. Sismondo's wife today. I am sending it in to them as soon as it's returned from the other expertising firm. Thank you so very much again. I am in such relief. Thank you Happy.

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Revstampman

08 Aug 2017
07:46:27pm
re: Italian States Parmensi 80

You are very welcome! I hope it works out well for you!
I have known Sergio for longer than I would care to admit to.
He has helped me out on a number of occasions and is a wealth of knowledge in that area.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
        

 

Author/Postings
Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
08:49:29pm

Image Not FoundDear Expert,

I have stamps from my collection that a receiving "No opinions" from a well known expertising firm. One of which is an Italian States Stati Parmensi 80 stamp from 1859. I was informed that their confidence to certify the parmensi is not for them but elsewear and it seems many experts, although to believe it's genuine, are fearful to be the final decision makers to certify it. Attached is the scan. However, I only have the front to send until they are returned to me as I have only taken snapshots of the fronts before I sent them for expertization, but for now, can you please give me your valued expert advise on what you think I have here?

The parmensi 80 stamp I had several experts examine. One of which is a forgery expert Evert Klaseboer which has published writings on Italian states forgeries. He said that the stamp is absolutely genuine, however I needed to have the cancel expertised because he felt that it was genuine as well but couldn't be conclusive. I have examined this stamp Intensively. Have taken it to several stamp shows. It has resided in the collection for over 100 years passed down over and over. I believe 100 percent it is genuine as well for several reasons including some notes market by various experts.

The actual stamp itself pretty much isn't questionable I was told.

1.) The "R" in Parmensi end is shorter as the genuines.
2.) Opening/gap on right frame can be seen that it's opened by the 2 white dots under the cancel ink where no yellow is shown.
3.) The Cancel ink postmark was done with metal by clearly the sharp edges.
4.) The Cancel ink flowed off of oily stamp ink or is not laying in impression where it defines the edges done by typographic printing and maybe the thumb rubbed it off at some point.
5.) The stamps were still used until the end of February 1860, but very seldom, and why would a forger risk such a late date.
6.) Why would a forger smear and make the center month date (27) it so dark to devalue it.
7.) Why was it hinged for long time in an album if it was meant to be sold. I would assume they couldn't see the future orly it's rarity..Happy.
8.) Ink was really dark..why would a forger want a really dark ink to ruin stamp and risk the high probability to disqualify it as genuine.
9.) The ink is oily like painting latex paint on top of oil based paint. The first issues were oily cancel ink also, folks wiped off ink back then for reuse, and then eventually grills to soak it up and at sime point a more pourous ink was used. They do not make the oily ink nowadays so it would of adhered to the oily stamps letters better. However, the ink runs off where fingers may have been or just ran off due to the oiliness of both.
10.) Back then the forgers would not have known how high of value they would be today.

I apologize for the long email but I would be so grateful for your opinion.

Thank you,

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
07 Aug 2017
09:25:01pm

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

I don't know what you want us to say, especially since you say you had the expert in Italian States look at the stamp and he rendered his opinion, and several other experts as well.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
09:41:26pm

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

I don't want to keep wasting my time sending this stamp out. The last expertising firm took close to 4 months. I feel the more concrete evidence I gather the better and/or negative evidence as well so I do not waste my time and especially nail biting nerves. So let's just pretend I didn't have any other experts give advice yet. Can any of you see anything of a red flag? And if not, where can I go to have this certified?

Best regards and thank you.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
07 Aug 2017
10:06:54pm

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

You already said that those who are the experts on these stamps have looked at them, and pretty much gave you the same answer, including the one who wrote the book on these stamps. Where else can the stamp be sent? Seems that this is more of you not getting the answer that you want.

Maybe one of the members here is a hidden expert on these stamps too. I don't know if you'd get a different answer this time, though, especially since no one here will actually have the subject in-hand.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
10:10:44pm

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Lol..that's true..that would be nice for their to be a hidden expert on here.I am somewhat a skeptic so you are right. I am not getting a straight answer no matter what, even if they "feel" it's genuine, no one seems to want to take the responsibility of expertising it, and understandably so, as it is quite a touchy subject with so many forgeries out there. I suppose I am looking for the "concrete" evidence in either direction..and would love to know where it can be sent.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Revstampman

07 Aug 2017
11:30:37pm

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Send it to Sergio Sismondo http://www.sismondostamps.com/exp/expert.htm
He is recognized World Wide as THE expert on Italian States.
I have never heard of anyone questioning one of his certificates and they are accepted by every auction house.
If you can catch him at a show he will give you a verbal opinion if he is not busy.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Mavakay78

07 Aug 2017
11:40:54pm

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Revstampman,

Let me say, thank you, thank you, thank you!. I have searched endlessly from foundation after foundation sending emails inquiring about this. You have just made my day, or night, literally. I KNEW there had to be one special person to help me here. Thank you truly..Happy.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Mavakay78

08 Aug 2017
09:40:51am

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

Revstampman,
I actually personally spoke to Mr. Sismondo's wife today. I am sending it in to them as soon as it's returned from the other expertising firm. Thank you so very much again. I am in such relief. Thank you Happy.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Revstampman

08 Aug 2017
07:46:27pm

re: Italian States Parmensi 80

You are very welcome! I hope it works out well for you!
I have known Sergio for longer than I would care to admit to.
He has helped me out on a number of occasions and is a wealth of knowledge in that area.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
        

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