Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
This cover traveled an interesting route, as per the cancellations:
Chung-King, China 25Sept99 to Shanghai, China 7Oct99 to Yokohama, Japan 19Oct99 to San Francisco, California, USA 6Nov99 to Chicago,Hyde Park, Illinois, USA 10Nov99 to Wheaton, Illinois, USA 11Nov99.
This cover has China (Scott #91) with damaged left perfs and Japan (Scott #79) tied with an I.P.O. cancel along with a Chicago flag cancellation and Chicago "MAIL DELAYED - TRAIN LATE" cancellation. A lot of history on one small cover!
Linus
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There is alot of history on that cover. This is a probably a dumb question but what is the purpose of a receiving mark?
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Ernie, in some cases it's required, as with certified and registry, to document that the mail has been handled at a station. in general, though, it provides a time line fr/to. And, for any forwarding, it's a receipt that the cover is starting again being handled almost as new, with new or corrected address.
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To add to the correct basic explanation by David, it was a rule from 1879 through about 1930 that the US post office receiving mail (except some second and third class mail) had to stamp it showing when it was received.
In larger post offices in the first couple decades of the 20th century they turned to using automatic machine-cancelling devices to place these received cancels on envelopes as this was much faster than having to hand-stamp each envelope as it came in.
This particular received cancel has been customized to be used at Chicago Hyde Park station and is made by the American Postal Machine company. There were a number of other companies that made them with a variety of different designs.
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That's a very nice redirected cover Linus. A complete and legible journey's history is a huge plus. The Hyde Park Station marking is a corker.
Without knowing what else was in the shoe box, I wouldn't be surprised if this has effectively paid for everything else.
I would guess that the Japanese stamp was applied by the C.I.P.O. if the postal arrangements were similar when routing mail westwards through Hong Kong - Chinese stamps were not valid for payment for the whole journey.
It is worth checking this out, as I am somewhat surprised that (if such prepayment was necessary) this occurred so late.
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I must be half blind - I have just noticed that the Japanese stamp has indeed been serviced by the Chinese Imperial Post Office, as it has a small unframed I.P.O 'tie-print'. This was applied to prevent pilfering during the China to Japan leg, before the adhesive was cancelled by the I.J.P.O. on receipt. Although it is probable the I.P.O. was applied at Chung-King, it's worth checking out.
Each IPO had its own 'tie-print' which can be identified by a combination of factors: Variation in size and shape of letters; size and shape of frame (if it had one); and shape of frame corners.
The use of the word 'tie' literally meant to tie the adhesive to the cover, so that in the event it was removed, there would be a partial impression of the I.P.O. print still on the cover; and the stamp containing the other part would be rendered useless (could not be taken the post office for a refund; nor could it be used for further postage.
The cover itself is termed a 'combination cover'.
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Thanks to all of you for the comments on this cover.
Ningpo, according to my reference book, "The Philatelic and Postal history of Hong Kong and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by F.W. Webb on page 210, the IPO tie-print was applied at Chungking and is an example of "Chungking 1." See chart below circled in yellow. Appendix XXIX lists this IPO mark on cover as scarcity "RR" which means "ten or less examples recorded" on Hong Kong adhesives. I am unsure how many have been recorded on Japan adhesives as on my cover above.
Linus
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I have 4 Hong Kong stamps in my collection with partial IPO tie-prints. Look closely below. Usually all you find is an "I" or an "O" and part of the box surrounding it. The rest of the IPO is on the cover the stamp came from, gone forever. I was lucky to find an entire IPO on my China cover from 1899.
Linus
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Just to flesh out some details about these IPO 'tie-prints':
As China did not become a member of the UPU until 1914, an arrangement had to be made to service mail posted beyond its borders. This was essential for those cities that only had a local Chinese post office, unlike others who had a permutation of British, French, German, Japanese, Russian and later American post offices.
Chung-King was certainly one city that did not have a British post office; nor it would seem a Japanese post office. Even if a foreign post office did exist in a city, there was no guarantee that any mail would be handled in a timely manner because of the refusal by some ships to take mail from any post office, other than from one 'flying the same flag'. So in some respects, this service arrangement (between China and another country) was a welcome bonus for the sender.
This initial arrangement, which may have differed slightly depending on which country and time period involved, generally required the Chinese Imperial Post offices to stock postage stamps for the countries that mail was to be sent to.
So, the sender had to first buy Chinese stamps for the transmission across China, and also buy stamps for the remainder of the journey for the country with which this postal arrangement had been made.
This initial arrangement was made in 1899 and continued until China signed a postal convention with certain countries (at different times), to permit transmission of mail franked only with Chinese stamps.
One such postal convention was signed with Japan in 1903.
It would seem that between 1899 and 1903, mail sent via Japan, would have used Japanese stamps that included the fee for onward transmission eastwards to the US. By implication, Japan and the USA must have had a separate agreement which would have accounted for such 'onward transmission', and Japan would have been credited with a portion of the postal fee.
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I am bumping an old thread of mine, to add to it, this cover scanned below that I recently saw for sale on eBay. One of our former Stamporama members, Ningpo, who passed away two years ago today, would have enjoyed this cover. This cover was mailed from China in 1899 from the treaty port of Ningpo with an added Japanese stamp tied with the Ningpo "tie-print." (see my chart above) The explanation that Clive gave in his post above, applies to this cover as well. I really would have loved to own this cover, as it fit nicely with my Chungking cover in my original post, but the asking price was $1500 US. Too much for me, and it did not sell. Remembering Ningpo today,
Peace be with you,
Linus
(not my cover, images from eBay)
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This was an interesting cover and discussion indeed. And fortuitous timing...
Just last week I finished reading a book on the Boxer Rebellion in China which started around November 1, 1899 (although the attacks on the foreign legations in Peking came a few months later, and the rescue efforts by other countries - including Japan - was another many months later).
Dave.
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I thought I would share this cover I recently acquired in a shoe box of foreign covers bought at the recent Stamp-Out Cancer Auction in Moline, Illinois, USA.
This cover traveled an interesting route, as per the cancellations:
Chung-King, China 25Sept99 to Shanghai, China 7Oct99 to Yokohama, Japan 19Oct99 to San Francisco, California, USA 6Nov99 to Chicago,Hyde Park, Illinois, USA 10Nov99 to Wheaton, Illinois, USA 11Nov99.
This cover has China (Scott #91) with damaged left perfs and Japan (Scott #79) tied with an I.P.O. cancel along with a Chicago flag cancellation and Chicago "MAIL DELAYED - TRAIN LATE" cancellation. A lot of history on one small cover!
Linus
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11:08:30am
re: China Cover from 1899
There is alot of history on that cover. This is a probably a dumb question but what is the purpose of a receiving mark?
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re: China Cover from 1899
Ernie, in some cases it's required, as with certified and registry, to document that the mail has been handled at a station. in general, though, it provides a time line fr/to. And, for any forwarding, it's a receipt that the cover is starting again being handled almost as new, with new or corrected address.
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: China Cover from 1899
To add to the correct basic explanation by David, it was a rule from 1879 through about 1930 that the US post office receiving mail (except some second and third class mail) had to stamp it showing when it was received.
In larger post offices in the first couple decades of the 20th century they turned to using automatic machine-cancelling devices to place these received cancels on envelopes as this was much faster than having to hand-stamp each envelope as it came in.
This particular received cancel has been customized to be used at Chicago Hyde Park station and is made by the American Postal Machine company. There were a number of other companies that made them with a variety of different designs.
3 Members
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re: China Cover from 1899
That's a very nice redirected cover Linus. A complete and legible journey's history is a huge plus. The Hyde Park Station marking is a corker.
Without knowing what else was in the shoe box, I wouldn't be surprised if this has effectively paid for everything else.
I would guess that the Japanese stamp was applied by the C.I.P.O. if the postal arrangements were similar when routing mail westwards through Hong Kong - Chinese stamps were not valid for payment for the whole journey.
It is worth checking this out, as I am somewhat surprised that (if such prepayment was necessary) this occurred so late.
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re: China Cover from 1899
I must be half blind - I have just noticed that the Japanese stamp has indeed been serviced by the Chinese Imperial Post Office, as it has a small unframed I.P.O 'tie-print'. This was applied to prevent pilfering during the China to Japan leg, before the adhesive was cancelled by the I.J.P.O. on receipt. Although it is probable the I.P.O. was applied at Chung-King, it's worth checking out.
Each IPO had its own 'tie-print' which can be identified by a combination of factors: Variation in size and shape of letters; size and shape of frame (if it had one); and shape of frame corners.
The use of the word 'tie' literally meant to tie the adhesive to the cover, so that in the event it was removed, there would be a partial impression of the I.P.O. print still on the cover; and the stamp containing the other part would be rendered useless (could not be taken the post office for a refund; nor could it be used for further postage.
The cover itself is termed a 'combination cover'.
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re: China Cover from 1899
Thanks to all of you for the comments on this cover.
Ningpo, according to my reference book, "The Philatelic and Postal history of Hong Kong and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by F.W. Webb on page 210, the IPO tie-print was applied at Chungking and is an example of "Chungking 1." See chart below circled in yellow. Appendix XXIX lists this IPO mark on cover as scarcity "RR" which means "ten or less examples recorded" on Hong Kong adhesives. I am unsure how many have been recorded on Japan adhesives as on my cover above.
Linus
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re: China Cover from 1899
I have 4 Hong Kong stamps in my collection with partial IPO tie-prints. Look closely below. Usually all you find is an "I" or an "O" and part of the box surrounding it. The rest of the IPO is on the cover the stamp came from, gone forever. I was lucky to find an entire IPO on my China cover from 1899.
Linus
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this post
re: China Cover from 1899
Just to flesh out some details about these IPO 'tie-prints':
As China did not become a member of the UPU until 1914, an arrangement had to be made to service mail posted beyond its borders. This was essential for those cities that only had a local Chinese post office, unlike others who had a permutation of British, French, German, Japanese, Russian and later American post offices.
Chung-King was certainly one city that did not have a British post office; nor it would seem a Japanese post office. Even if a foreign post office did exist in a city, there was no guarantee that any mail would be handled in a timely manner because of the refusal by some ships to take mail from any post office, other than from one 'flying the same flag'. So in some respects, this service arrangement (between China and another country) was a welcome bonus for the sender.
This initial arrangement, which may have differed slightly depending on which country and time period involved, generally required the Chinese Imperial Post offices to stock postage stamps for the countries that mail was to be sent to.
So, the sender had to first buy Chinese stamps for the transmission across China, and also buy stamps for the remainder of the journey for the country with which this postal arrangement had been made.
This initial arrangement was made in 1899 and continued until China signed a postal convention with certain countries (at different times), to permit transmission of mail franked only with Chinese stamps.
One such postal convention was signed with Japan in 1903.
It would seem that between 1899 and 1903, mail sent via Japan, would have used Japanese stamps that included the fee for onward transmission eastwards to the US. By implication, Japan and the USA must have had a separate agreement which would have accounted for such 'onward transmission', and Japan would have been credited with a portion of the postal fee.
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re: China Cover from 1899
I am bumping an old thread of mine, to add to it, this cover scanned below that I recently saw for sale on eBay. One of our former Stamporama members, Ningpo, who passed away two years ago today, would have enjoyed this cover. This cover was mailed from China in 1899 from the treaty port of Ningpo with an added Japanese stamp tied with the Ningpo "tie-print." (see my chart above) The explanation that Clive gave in his post above, applies to this cover as well. I really would have loved to own this cover, as it fit nicely with my Chungking cover in my original post, but the asking price was $1500 US. Too much for me, and it did not sell. Remembering Ningpo today,
Peace be with you,
Linus
(not my cover, images from eBay)
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re: China Cover from 1899
This was an interesting cover and discussion indeed. And fortuitous timing...
Just last week I finished reading a book on the Boxer Rebellion in China which started around November 1, 1899 (although the attacks on the foreign legations in Peking came a few months later, and the rescue efforts by other countries - including Japan - was another many months later).
Dave.
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