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Europe/Other : Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

 

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

02 Apr 2017
08:47:14pm
I need some help with the Vasco da Gama series in Portugal and Colonies. My understanding is that the da Gama series was originally printed per the UPU guidelines in 1898 with the following names engraved on them:
Portugal
Azores
Macao
Madeira
Portuguese Africa
Portuguese India
Timor

All of those except Madeira and Portuguese Africa were subsequently given overprints of "Republica" or a surcharge or both around 1910-1913. Some of these issues were also overprinted with a different colony name in addition to REPUBLICA and/or surcharge. The additional colonies are:
Angola
Cape Verde
Inhambane
Lourenco Marques
Mozambique
Portuguese Congo
Portuguese Guinea
Quelimane
St. Thomas and Prince Islands
Tete

Are my assumptions incorrect? Am I missing any?

Thanks for any help. I'm fairly lost outside the US!

Lars
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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

02 Apr 2017
09:44:37pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Lars, sounds about right. Below is a link to the index of Portuguese Colonies from my collection. You can check it to see if you have missed anything and for multiple overprinted sets in the same colony.
http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection//europe/portuguese/portcolonies.html

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

02 Apr 2017
10:14:28pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

The Vasco da Gama issue is Common Design #CD20-CD27 under Scott. The countries and catalog numbers for each set are listed in the introduction to the Scott catalogs.

Unfortunately, Scott doesn't list the overprinted sets in the common designs section, so that doesn't help you much unless you look up each set, and hope Scott gives a cross reference in the main country listing.

Your list of the original sets is missing two of the nine countries where the set was issued:

Portuguese Congo
St. Thomas and Prince Islands

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

02 Apr 2017
10:44:09pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"Lars, sounds about right. Below is a link to the index of Portuguese Colonies from my collection. You can check it to see if you have missed anything and for multiple overprinted sets in the same colony. "



Mitch, I was hoping you would post a link!!! Thank you so much!

"The Vasco da Gama issue is Common Design #CD20-CD27 under Scott. The countries and catalog numbers for each set are listed in the introduction to the Scott catalogs."



Yes, that's how I tracked these down, but my 1998 Scott World catalog only lists the seven that I indicated. Does a later Scott World catalog list issues from Portuguese Congo and St. Thomas being issued (probably in 1898) without overprints? My catalog only shows overprints on issues from other colonies in the 1911-1913 time-frame.
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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

02 Apr 2017
10:51:08pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Mitch,

I checked the Portuguese Colonies and I think I'm good. Thanks!

FYI, you are missing a "break" in the HTML code between Quelimane and St. Thomas.

Lars

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

02 Apr 2017
11:04:47pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

I have the 2017 catalogues.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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larsdog
Members Picture


APS #220693 ATA#57179

02 Apr 2017
11:28:22pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"I have the 2017 catalogues."



Michael, I know you always have the latest catalogs and that is why your input is so important. It seems like there are two possibilities:

1) Between 1998 and 2017 Scott identified two more colonies with their names engraved in the Vasco da Gama common design, and if so, that is a stunning discovery over 100 years later!

2) Scott is just now starting to include colonies that use overprints on the common designs. If that's the case, Scott is 2 for 10 so far.

The big question is whether Portuguese Congo or St. Thomas and Prince Islands actually issued stamps in 1898 in the common design or if they just have overprints circa 1911-13.

Does the 2017 Catalog show they issued stamps in 1898 (or at least before 1910)?
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khj
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03 Apr 2017
12:45:26am
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

According to the 2017 Scott catalog:

Portuguese Congo began issuing their own stamps in 1894.
St. Thomas and Prince Islands began issuing their own stamps in 1869.

Neither issued their own common design Vasco da Gama stamps, only overprinted stamps using the common design Vasco da Gama stamps of Macao, Portuguese Africa, and Timor.

I don't know why these 2 overprint sets were given special treatment and listed in the Scott CDT lists, while the other overprint set were not included.

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khj
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03 Apr 2017
12:59:59am
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

The 2004 catalogs also have those 2 sets included. So Scott made the change sometime between the 1998 and 2004 editions. My older Scott catalogs are in off-site storage, so I can't check that year range right now.

Regardless, I have no idea why they suddenly included those 2 overprint sets and not the others.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

03 Apr 2017
10:43:42am
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

More to add to the list of things to do when I buy Scott...Sad

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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larsdog
Members Picture


APS #220693 ATA#57179

03 Apr 2017
07:05:29pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"More to add to the list of things to do when I buy Scott..."



Yes, but we've given you the list of colonies to add. Heck, you could delegate that chore on day one and finish your first day on the job with a deep sense of accomplishment and satisfaction! Makes you want to go make an offer right now, doesn't it?!?!? Laughing

Thanks everyone for the inputs!

Lars
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this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
larsdog
Members Picture


APS #220693 ATA#57179

03 Apr 2017
07:16:59pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Just for grins, I checked my 1928 Catalog and it shows the designs under Portugal with no clue as to where else that design was used. Under the other issuing colonies in 1898 it just says "Same types as corresponding Issue of Portugal". The info on overprints is really confusing. Same treatment in the 1945 Catalog. Those two and 1998 are the only World Catalogs I have. I should probably pick up 2012 or 2013.

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
AntoniusRa
Members Picture


The truth is within and only you can reveal it

04 Apr 2017
12:23:59am
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

My Portuguese Congo pages do not show all three overprinted sets because the two other pages are blank and I di not scan them. I do this very rarely but a lot of Portuguese Colonies are very sparse in areas and decided not to scan them until they filled out a bit. There should not be any 1898 sets issued for Congo and St Thomas. However, Portugal often sent it's own stamps to their colonies and these can be found cancelled. I'm having a hard time following the conversation but just in case it is that, than there you have it.

Lars, glad they could be of help but I'm not positive all colonies are shown or not.
Thanks for the HTML tip, I've fixed it.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
larsdog
Members Picture


APS #220693 ATA#57179

04 Apr 2017
09:35:35pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"Lars, glad they could be of help but I'm not positive all colonies are shown or not."



Mitch, that link certainly cleared up a lot of questions for me. I was able to visualize what I was looking for and I checked my catalog for every colony you have listed and didn't find any more Vasco da Gama issues. I feel comfortable that I now have a comprehensive list.

"Thanks for the HTML tip, I've fixed it."



The line break is working, but you have a double quote after the _blank target for Quelimane making that page 404. Sorry that I can't put the HTML code in here, or this app will try to process it. If that doesn't make sense, send me a PM and I will email the info to you.

I hate to mention it, but I have my collection online to invite critique and I assume you do as well. I did notice that your Portuguese Guinea 139 is really 131. But the da Gama issue looks almost as complicated as the U.S. 3rd Bureau, so my hat is off to you for getting so much of it right! I have been notified of an error or two in my collection and I only collect U.S.!

Thanks again everyone!

Lars
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this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
AntoniusRa
Members Picture


The truth is within and only you can reveal it

05 Apr 2017
08:02:50pm
re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Lars, Thanks much for the heads up on that misplaced stamp. I try very hard to make sure all my stamps are in the correct spaces. This one should have been easy to spot but it slipped right by me. It really does make things a hassel though. I have to rescan then correct my needlist and then look for the correct stamp. Then do it all over again when I find the right stamp. Well I fixed that page and also fixed the Quelimane html problem which was a real pain as it was not just the quotes but it was linking to an old directory that was incorrect.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
02 Apr 2017
08:47:14pm

I need some help with the Vasco da Gama series in Portugal and Colonies. My understanding is that the da Gama series was originally printed per the UPU guidelines in 1898 with the following names engraved on them:
Portugal
Azores
Macao
Madeira
Portuguese Africa
Portuguese India
Timor

All of those except Madeira and Portuguese Africa were subsequently given overprints of "Republica" or a surcharge or both around 1910-1913. Some of these issues were also overprinted with a different colony name in addition to REPUBLICA and/or surcharge. The additional colonies are:
Angola
Cape Verde
Inhambane
Lourenco Marques
Mozambique
Portuguese Congo
Portuguese Guinea
Quelimane
St. Thomas and Prince Islands
Tete

Are my assumptions incorrect? Am I missing any?

Thanks for any help. I'm fairly lost outside the US!

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
02 Apr 2017
09:44:37pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Lars, sounds about right. Below is a link to the index of Portuguese Colonies from my collection. You can check it to see if you have missed anything and for multiple overprinted sets in the same colony.
http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection//europe/portuguese/portcolonies.html

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Login to Like
this post

mitch.seymourfamily. ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
02 Apr 2017
10:14:28pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

The Vasco da Gama issue is Common Design #CD20-CD27 under Scott. The countries and catalog numbers for each set are listed in the introduction to the Scott catalogs.

Unfortunately, Scott doesn't list the overprinted sets in the common designs section, so that doesn't help you much unless you look up each set, and hope Scott gives a cross reference in the main country listing.

Your list of the original sets is missing two of the nine countries where the set was issued:

Portuguese Congo
St. Thomas and Prince Islands

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
02 Apr 2017
10:44:09pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"Lars, sounds about right. Below is a link to the index of Portuguese Colonies from my collection. You can check it to see if you have missed anything and for multiple overprinted sets in the same colony. "



Mitch, I was hoping you would post a link!!! Thank you so much!

"The Vasco da Gama issue is Common Design #CD20-CD27 under Scott. The countries and catalog numbers for each set are listed in the introduction to the Scott catalogs."



Yes, that's how I tracked these down, but my 1998 Scott World catalog only lists the seven that I indicated. Does a later Scott World catalog list issues from Portuguese Congo and St. Thomas being issued (probably in 1898) without overprints? My catalog only shows overprints on issues from other colonies in the 1911-1913 time-frame.
Like
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this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
02 Apr 2017
10:51:08pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Mitch,

I checked the Portuguese Colonies and I think I'm good. Thanks!

FYI, you are missing a "break" in the HTML code between Quelimane and St. Thomas.

Lars

Like
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this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
02 Apr 2017
11:04:47pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

I have the 2017 catalogues.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
02 Apr 2017
11:28:22pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"I have the 2017 catalogues."



Michael, I know you always have the latest catalogs and that is why your input is so important. It seems like there are two possibilities:

1) Between 1998 and 2017 Scott identified two more colonies with their names engraved in the Vasco da Gama common design, and if so, that is a stunning discovery over 100 years later!

2) Scott is just now starting to include colonies that use overprints on the common designs. If that's the case, Scott is 2 for 10 so far.

The big question is whether Portuguese Congo or St. Thomas and Prince Islands actually issued stamps in 1898 in the common design or if they just have overprints circa 1911-13.

Does the 2017 Catalog show they issued stamps in 1898 (or at least before 1910)?
Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
khj

03 Apr 2017
12:45:26am

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

According to the 2017 Scott catalog:

Portuguese Congo began issuing their own stamps in 1894.
St. Thomas and Prince Islands began issuing their own stamps in 1869.

Neither issued their own common design Vasco da Gama stamps, only overprinted stamps using the common design Vasco da Gama stamps of Macao, Portuguese Africa, and Timor.

I don't know why these 2 overprint sets were given special treatment and listed in the Scott CDT lists, while the other overprint set were not included.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
khj

03 Apr 2017
12:59:59am

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

The 2004 catalogs also have those 2 sets included. So Scott made the change sometime between the 1998 and 2004 editions. My older Scott catalogs are in off-site storage, so I can't check that year range right now.

Regardless, I have no idea why they suddenly included those 2 overprint sets and not the others.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
03 Apr 2017
10:43:42am

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

More to add to the list of things to do when I buy Scott...Sad

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
03 Apr 2017
07:05:29pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"More to add to the list of things to do when I buy Scott..."



Yes, but we've given you the list of colonies to add. Heck, you could delegate that chore on day one and finish your first day on the job with a deep sense of accomplishment and satisfaction! Makes you want to go make an offer right now, doesn't it?!?!? Laughing

Thanks everyone for the inputs!

Lars
Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
03 Apr 2017
07:16:59pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Just for grins, I checked my 1928 Catalog and it shows the designs under Portugal with no clue as to where else that design was used. Under the other issuing colonies in 1898 it just says "Same types as corresponding Issue of Portugal". The info on overprints is really confusing. Same treatment in the 1945 Catalog. Those two and 1998 are the only World Catalogs I have. I should probably pick up 2012 or 2013.

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
04 Apr 2017
12:23:59am

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

My Portuguese Congo pages do not show all three overprinted sets because the two other pages are blank and I di not scan them. I do this very rarely but a lot of Portuguese Colonies are very sparse in areas and decided not to scan them until they filled out a bit. There should not be any 1898 sets issued for Congo and St Thomas. However, Portugal often sent it's own stamps to their colonies and these can be found cancelled. I'm having a hard time following the conversation but just in case it is that, than there you have it.

Lars, glad they could be of help but I'm not positive all colonies are shown or not.
Thanks for the HTML tip, I've fixed it.

Like
Login to Like
this post

mitch.seymourfamily. ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
04 Apr 2017
09:35:35pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

"Lars, glad they could be of help but I'm not positive all colonies are shown or not."



Mitch, that link certainly cleared up a lot of questions for me. I was able to visualize what I was looking for and I checked my catalog for every colony you have listed and didn't find any more Vasco da Gama issues. I feel comfortable that I now have a comprehensive list.

"Thanks for the HTML tip, I've fixed it."



The line break is working, but you have a double quote after the _blank target for Quelimane making that page 404. Sorry that I can't put the HTML code in here, or this app will try to process it. If that doesn't make sense, send me a PM and I will email the info to you.

I hate to mention it, but I have my collection online to invite critique and I assume you do as well. I did notice that your Portuguese Guinea 139 is really 131. But the da Gama issue looks almost as complicated as the U.S. 3rd Bureau, so my hat is off to you for getting so much of it right! I have been notified of an error or two in my collection and I only collect U.S.!

Thanks again everyone!

Lars
Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
05 Apr 2017
08:02:50pm

re: Need help with Portugal and Portuguese Colonies

Lars, Thanks much for the heads up on that misplaced stamp. I try very hard to make sure all my stamps are in the correct spaces. This one should have been easy to spot but it slipped right by me. It really does make things a hassel though. I have to rescan then correct my needlist and then look for the correct stamp. Then do it all over again when I find the right stamp. Well I fixed that page and also fixed the Quelimane html problem which was a real pain as it was not just the quotes but it was linking to an old directory that was incorrect.

Like
Login to Like
this post

mitch.seymourfamily. ...
        

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