Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I wonder how many are really used.
A friend who was a teen in Germany at the end of the war told me how he obtained a hand cancel from a bombed post office and cancelled sheets of the inflation era stamps.
What percentage of the cancelled stamps for sale are authentic?
LarryG
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remainder sheets abound , so cancels need to be expertised.
philaseiten.de offers accurate cancel dbase ...
many forgeries exist ... goto ebay.de/
search :
1923 BPP
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Hi Everyone;
Don't buy any of the used ones. They can all be faked.
In 2007 I saw a seller offering homemade rubber stamps with authentic looking German cancellations.
They were made from inexpensive kits.
When I confronted the seller, asking him to take them down before I reported him, he refused. He said
if I look closely, he added an extra embellishment to them so they could be easily told apart from real ones.
I told him that they could be positioned to have the added object fall off the edge of the stamp
and not show up at all.
He never answered my response, and FeeBay never did anything.
Further research showed that inexpensive kits ($20-$25) were selling on eBay for making your own
rubber stamps.
This is mostly part of the rubber stamping hobby, for boring people with even more boring lives than ours!
So having a metal stamp from a bombed out post office is totally not necessary, and there would be
no way of collecting these, except on cover and then only passed by well trusted authenticators.
Just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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"This is mostly part of the rubber stamping hobby, for boring people with even more boring lives than ours!"
There are so many ways to take exception to that statement that I am not sure where to start.
Regarding cancelled Wiemar Republic stamps, there is a long and storied history of faking the cancels. Some fakes were created almost contemporarily with the stamps being issued.
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A sure way to tell if a cancel from between 1916 -1923 is false, is that there must be a "V" or "N" after the Date/time: No "V" or "N" = False. There is also a publication from the Infla Berlin group "Band 13, Falschstempel der Inflation" that lists all of the known false cancelations. The tricky thing is as mentioned by LarryG are the authentic stamps used on these. I would think that the experts can still tell these apart by the ink being used.
This is my main collecting area and I have about 99.9% of all my used stamps proofed. After ca. 15 years collecting these, I have only come across 3 bad cancelations. I like to think, if they look to good, don´t buy unless newly proofed.
.
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Here is a good example of a cancelation that is known to be back dated.
The cancelation "CÖLN * 12 f" is known to be backdated as per the Infla book.
I had this 5 000 000 00
Mark stamp proofed, it turned out to be good.
Note the bottom of the cancel. CÖLN * 12 f.
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I've always been under the impression that 90% or more of the cancellations on these stamps were fake. I find you statement that you specialize in them but have only found 3 forged cancellations, hard to understand. To those that have not heard them, there are stories of people going to the post office with wheel barrows full of cash to buy a stamps to use on mail. This extreme inflation caused used examples to be very scarce and subsequently driving their value up. It is not hard to understand how this invited the forger to fake cancels to deceive collectors.
Your statement that an N or S should follow the date to be a qualifier of legitimacy is helpful but you would think most forgers would know this and include it on their own device. I checked one of my pages (below) and all of the readable cancels did in deed have an "N" after the date. Although this does not mean they are legitimate
but only not fake considering one aspect.
While most of the forged cancellations were probably contemporary there's been nearly 100 years for later forgers to do their handy work on these, especially because there are still many millions of uncancelled stamps in circulation. Surely no publication could ever show all the forged cancellations out there.
For reference below is one of my pages showing the stamps of this era. As I collect both I've just been stacking them, usually mint on top of used mainly to show best the stamp.
However some are shown used on top of mint, many of these clearly show the "N" after date.
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https://www.delcampe.net/en_GB/collectables/search?term=rolf+tworek&search_mode=phrase&excluded_terms=&country=NET&is_searchable_in_descriptions=1&is_searchable_in_translations=0&show_type=all&display_ongoing=ongoing&started_days=&ended_hours=&min_price=&max_price=&order=price_asc&seller_localisation=world&blacklisted_sellers_included=0
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I cannot speak for Opa, but my interpretation of his post:
1. Of all the examples Opa submitted for expertization, only 3 came back as fakes (in other words, skilled enough to filter out the likely fakes so as to only submit ones with near 100% certainty of being genuine)
2. Cancels without the letter are from fake cancelers, but having the letter in the cancel does not mean it is genuine.
I assume the latter point applies only to the general post office cancelers, and not to special cancels.
I also assume the really big problem is with fake (back-dated) cancels made with genuine cancelling devices. And so some of the cancel/dates listed are for ones known to exist as fake or back-dated cancels. That does not mean a cancel with that date is fake -- it may still be genuine, as shown in the example Opa posted.
One of the key factors for experts to distinguish fake back-dated cancels is that the wrong type of ink was used. So in additional to the Infla list to warn of questionable cancels/dates, the type of ink should also be noted. Not an expert, but my non-scientific observations on the ink are as follows and I would appreciate any members chiming in to comment on these observations (just general observations, not absolute rules or criteria):
1. Genuine postal cancels used an oily ink (referring only to general post office cancels, not special cancels which I have seen to clearly use non-oily ink). This often results in the following...
2. ...genuine cancels often "bleed" through slightly or significantly to the back-side
3. ...genuine cancels often "spread out" giving the appearance of blurriness or unsharp lines/curves, sometimes even resulting in "blotching"
4. ...a lot of the genuine cancels that I've seen tend NOT to be dark black, and I was wondering if this is caused in part by the "bleeding" out/thru
Again, I do not present these as criteria, but was wondering how often that is seen in genuine postal cancels of that time period. Any comments appreciated, as well as any correction to my understanding -- I sort of assume the basic info I was given was correct/valid.
(and of course, I do know that an oily ink doesn't guarantee that the cancel is genuine)
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"I cannot speak for Opa, but my interpretation of his post:
1. Of all the examples Opa submitted for expertization, only 3 came back as fakes (in other words, skilled enough to filter out the likely fakes so as to only submit ones with near 100% certainty of being genuine)"
This is how I read Opa's post as well
I have many of these but consider all to be bogus.
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Yes, that would make sense but doesn't really quite read that way. I to assume they are all fake even though that might be a bit harsh. Many of the used examples do not cat for much more than mint examples which would give the forger little incentive. It has always been a difficult area to deal with which require a lot of money buying certs to be content with what you have. Much easier just to collect these mint but is one of the areas that make it hard for used only collectors.
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Scanned below are used blocks from my WW block collection. After reading through this discussion, I guess these are probably fakes, too.
Linus
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Linus, without checking the cancel dates/types, I would have put them in the possible genuine pile considering the ink appearance. That's the main reason for my post. On the genuine general postal cancels that I've seen, the ink color/spread typically has the appearance shown in your examples.
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I am no expert at all on determining whether these are fake or real cancels. I just put them in my collection, and enjoy looking at them. I just discovered that block of 10 with serrate roulette 13-and-one-half perfs this past weekend in a shoe box of worldwide I bought from the Stamp Out Cancer Auction years ago. I finally got down to the bottom of the shoe box and this block was off paper with a bunch of mint German stamps stuck to it. Using my spray bottle of water and a lot of patience, I managed to get it freed. It would be nice if it was real, as the 2016 Scott catalog value for Germany 305 used is $7.50 per stamp, or $75.00 for the whole block of 10!
Linus
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I just spent about 1 1/2 hours writing a response. Then I hit a side button on my new mouse and everything was gone. So here we go again.
" 1. Of all the examples Opa submitted for expertization, only 3 came back as fakes (in other words, skilled enough to filter out the likely fakes so as to only submit ones with near 100% certainty of being genuine)
2. Cancels without the letter are from fake cancelers, but having the letter in the cancel does not mean it is genuine.
"
1.) Only two came back as false and one I found in a small collection I bought. Easy to spot with a modern DDR cancel. I´m not skilled enough to filter out everything, some are just obvious.
2.) The "V" or the "N" are a must.
As far as I know there is only one form of special cancel from 1919 that does not have these letters; W. Verfassungs Tag = Constitution Day. issued to several cities.
Band #9 of infla Berlin lists all the special cancels from between 1919 and 1923. I also have this book. Unfortunately it does not show every cancel, the ones shown however do all have the N or V.
"
1. Genuine postal cancels used an oily ink (referring only to general post office cancels, not special cancels which I have seen to clearly use non-oily ink). This often results in the following...
2. ...genuine cancels often "bleed" through slightly or significantly to the back-side
3. ...genuine cancels often "spread out" giving the appearance of blurriness or unsharp lines/curves, sometimes even resulting in "blotching"
4. ...a lot of the genuine cancels that I've seen tend NOT to be dark black, and I was wondering if this is caused in part by the "bleeding" out/thru
"
Very true, the ink likes to find it´s way through the paper. I don´t know what the ink was made of but oily is a very good description. I don´t know, I would think that the ink for special cancels would be the same. I suspect that the stamp for the Sp. cancels would be of better quality since these were only being used for very short periods of time, some only a few days: for example special events.
Also considering the fact that a postal clerk who had letters with 20 plus stamps to cancel a hundred times a day most likely didn´t like that part of his job. (Ink pad ,boom, ink pad boom.........). I have seen covers that were cancelled with a thick wax like marker called Killer Balken (LINE)that just put a heavy mark over the stamps. I guess cancelling every stamp was just to much work.
There are cancels that do look very good, even Hand cancels. Here are some. All have been proofed.
The right is a machine cancelation. If it was in the middle of the stamp and off paper, most people would probably think "FAKE".
One thing I would like to ad. I believe that when you collect a specific area and live in the country of its origin you are going to find much more originals than forgeries or fakes.
Hand cancels on this letter from Zerbst are thick and Bulky but very clean and easy to read.
"
I've always been under the impression that 90% or more of the cancellations on these stamps were fake. I find you statement that you specialize in them but have only found 3 forged cancellations, hard to understand. To those that have not heard them, there are stories of people going to the post office with wheel barrows full of cash to buy a stamps to use on mail. This extreme inflation caused used examples to be very scarce and subsequently driving their value up. It is not hard to understand how this invited the forger to fake cancels to deceive collectors.
Your statement that an N or S should follow the date to be a qualifier of legitimacy is helpful but you would think most forgers would know this and include it on their own device. I checked one of my pages (below) and all of the readable cancels did in deed have an "N" after the date. Although this does not mean they are legitimate
"
I don´t think that 90% are fake but a lot are around to pull money out of poor collectors pockets. But think of it this way how many personal letters with these stamps have you seen and how many from companies, banks etc.. In my collection I might have one or two personal letters the rest are all from companies or Banks. The really expensive stamps are not the normal ones rather the varieties. For example Michel 313-330 the entire set cancelled for the least expensive type are 110 Euros. The 325A Pb cancelled lists at 9000.- and the same stamp 325A Pa only lists at 2.5o.
In Germany many stamps from this era are considered mass, just too many around. It´s those raisins in the bowl you have to look out for. The expensive varieties are the ones most likely to be false. The inexpensive varieties that look older, perhaps a short perf. or two, slightly stained, cancel smudged but readable etc., they most likely good.
More prone to false cancels are the allied occupation stamps for Germany including USSR. I have seen lots in namely Auction houses that say "because of the cancel issue the bidding prices have been reduced". It can be a risky hobby I guess.
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"Scanned below are used blocks from my WW block collection. After reading through this discussion, I guess these are probably fakes, too.
Linus
"
I hold these for genuine, The covers are not that seldom. The Fist cover with the Cancel FRANKFURT * (MAIN) 9q is listed as possible back date. Your cover however looks good.
Blocks of four are worth much more than the listed catalog price. The 1 Milliarde stamp you have lists with a multiplication factor of 6. Nice piece.
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Opa - Thank you for your opinion. I feel a little better that these may be real cancels. I also have this cover below from the year 1925 that was sent from Frankfort to the same Paul L. Hess in Kansas City, Missouri, USA. It helps to support the probability that the previous Frankfort cover was real.
Linus
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BPP rates ...
https://www.bpp.de/en/sonderpruefordnung-infla.html
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Looking through my other blocks from Germany, I found this one scanned below dated 11-11-18. This one is listed in the Scott catalog under France, Occupation stamps, cat. number N21, used $2.75 each stamp if real, $22.00 for the whole block. From what I have learned from everyone contributing to this post, I think this cancel is probably fake. It looks too neat and perfect, ink is thin and uniform, not blotchy and uneven, and the cancels are carefully placed at the corners of each stamp. What is your opinion?
Thanks to all who have replied on this topic,
Linus
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Linus, I defer to the others with more experience/knowledge, but I'd be shocked if that block of 8 was genuine postally used.
If you've ever seen whole sheets of these, you'd see your block is typical example of something torn from a full sheet of favor-cancels or fake back-dated cancels. The gum is soaked off to make it look used rather than CTO. I have a couple of these, although not for that issue. I think I might have a scan stored somewhere that I'll try to post later.
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That is what I thought, also. It looks like it was taken from a CTO sheet, and there is no gum on the back just as you describe. This one looks too perfect to be real.
Linus
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OK, here is an "example" -- I know it's the wrong time period, but just to give you an idea:
I run across these in large dealer mixes, and on occasion have seen them in auction lots as well. If I remember correctly, I have several of these panes, all with the exact same cancel. Hope the person who manufactured these didn't get carpal tunnel...
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@ Linus
Can´t tell you if the cancel is real or not but it says "POSTUBERWACHUNGSSTELLE" which means Postal monitoring or Postal censorship.
This site might give you an idea about the cancel. Look at the 5th postcard from the top.
http://www.heimatsammlung.de/ganzsachen/deutsche-besetzungsausgaben/deutsche-besetzungsausgaben.htm
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Thanks for the link and the translation, Opa. It is the same cancel with 33, only on a postcard. Interesting.
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Hi Everyone;
Thanks Opa for that little bit of info!
I now have two sets of rubber stamps. One set has had an 'N' added and the other set has the 'V' added.
When you place your rubber stamp order, please specify either N or V, so I can ship the correct version.
I also have the Mighty Mack bridge for sale this week. It's the one that connects the upper and lower halves of Michigan.
Just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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A scan of killer bar cancel that I mentioned earlier.
This thing is not going into my main collection.
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"Thanks for the link and the translation, Opa. It is the same cancel with 33, only on a postcard. Interesting."
The censorship in this area was very strict and postcards were encouraged. Letters that had just a small mistake on the cover like incomplete names were burnt.
Also, I have found the cancel on many stamps being offered by German dealers on many sites, so I think it is a CTO, but worth keeping.
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12:53:55pm
i see many "used" inflation period stamps for sale on EBay at relatively high prices compared to mint stamps.
I wonder how many are really used.
A friend who was a teen in Germany at the end of the war told me how he obtained a hand cancel from a bombed post office and cancelled sheets of the inflation era stamps.
What percentage of the cancelled stamps for sale are authentic?
LarryG
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
remainder sheets abound , so cancels need to be expertised.
philaseiten.de offers accurate cancel dbase ...
many forgeries exist ... goto ebay.de/
search :
1923 BPP
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Hi Everyone;
Don't buy any of the used ones. They can all be faked.
In 2007 I saw a seller offering homemade rubber stamps with authentic looking German cancellations.
They were made from inexpensive kits.
When I confronted the seller, asking him to take them down before I reported him, he refused. He said
if I look closely, he added an extra embellishment to them so they could be easily told apart from real ones.
I told him that they could be positioned to have the added object fall off the edge of the stamp
and not show up at all.
He never answered my response, and FeeBay never did anything.
Further research showed that inexpensive kits ($20-$25) were selling on eBay for making your own
rubber stamps.
This is mostly part of the rubber stamping hobby, for boring people with even more boring lives than ours!
So having a metal stamp from a bombed out post office is totally not necessary, and there would be
no way of collecting these, except on cover and then only passed by well trusted authenticators.
Just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
"This is mostly part of the rubber stamping hobby, for boring people with even more boring lives than ours!"
There are so many ways to take exception to that statement that I am not sure where to start.
Regarding cancelled Wiemar Republic stamps, there is a long and storied history of faking the cancels. Some fakes were created almost contemporarily with the stamps being issued.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
A sure way to tell if a cancel from between 1916 -1923 is false, is that there must be a "V" or "N" after the Date/time: No "V" or "N" = False. There is also a publication from the Infla Berlin group "Band 13, Falschstempel der Inflation" that lists all of the known false cancelations. The tricky thing is as mentioned by LarryG are the authentic stamps used on these. I would think that the experts can still tell these apart by the ink being used.
This is my main collecting area and I have about 99.9% of all my used stamps proofed. After ca. 15 years collecting these, I have only come across 3 bad cancelations. I like to think, if they look to good, don´t buy unless newly proofed.
.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Here is a good example of a cancelation that is known to be back dated.
The cancelation "CÖLN * 12 f" is known to be backdated as per the Infla book.
I had this 5 000 000 00 Mark stamp proofed, it turned out to be good.
Note the bottom of the cancel. CÖLN * 12 f.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
I've always been under the impression that 90% or more of the cancellations on these stamps were fake. I find you statement that you specialize in them but have only found 3 forged cancellations, hard to understand. To those that have not heard them, there are stories of people going to the post office with wheel barrows full of cash to buy a stamps to use on mail. This extreme inflation caused used examples to be very scarce and subsequently driving their value up. It is not hard to understand how this invited the forger to fake cancels to deceive collectors.
Your statement that an N or S should follow the date to be a qualifier of legitimacy is helpful but you would think most forgers would know this and include it on their own device. I checked one of my pages (below) and all of the readable cancels did in deed have an "N" after the date. Although this does not mean they are legitimate
but only not fake considering one aspect.
While most of the forged cancellations were probably contemporary there's been nearly 100 years for later forgers to do their handy work on these, especially because there are still many millions of uncancelled stamps in circulation. Surely no publication could ever show all the forged cancellations out there.
For reference below is one of my pages showing the stamps of this era. As I collect both I've just been stacking them, usually mint on top of used mainly to show best the stamp.
However some are shown used on top of mint, many of these clearly show the "N" after date.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
https://www.delcampe.net/en_GB/collectables/search?term=rolf+tworek&search_mode=phrase&excluded_terms=&country=NET&is_searchable_in_descriptions=1&is_searchable_in_translations=0&show_type=all&display_ongoing=ongoing&started_days=&ended_hours=&min_price=&max_price=&order=price_asc&seller_localisation=world&blacklisted_sellers_included=0
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
I cannot speak for Opa, but my interpretation of his post:
1. Of all the examples Opa submitted for expertization, only 3 came back as fakes (in other words, skilled enough to filter out the likely fakes so as to only submit ones with near 100% certainty of being genuine)
2. Cancels without the letter are from fake cancelers, but having the letter in the cancel does not mean it is genuine.
I assume the latter point applies only to the general post office cancelers, and not to special cancels.
I also assume the really big problem is with fake (back-dated) cancels made with genuine cancelling devices. And so some of the cancel/dates listed are for ones known to exist as fake or back-dated cancels. That does not mean a cancel with that date is fake -- it may still be genuine, as shown in the example Opa posted.
One of the key factors for experts to distinguish fake back-dated cancels is that the wrong type of ink was used. So in additional to the Infla list to warn of questionable cancels/dates, the type of ink should also be noted. Not an expert, but my non-scientific observations on the ink are as follows and I would appreciate any members chiming in to comment on these observations (just general observations, not absolute rules or criteria):
1. Genuine postal cancels used an oily ink (referring only to general post office cancels, not special cancels which I have seen to clearly use non-oily ink). This often results in the following...
2. ...genuine cancels often "bleed" through slightly or significantly to the back-side
3. ...genuine cancels often "spread out" giving the appearance of blurriness or unsharp lines/curves, sometimes even resulting in "blotching"
4. ...a lot of the genuine cancels that I've seen tend NOT to be dark black, and I was wondering if this is caused in part by the "bleeding" out/thru
Again, I do not present these as criteria, but was wondering how often that is seen in genuine postal cancels of that time period. Any comments appreciated, as well as any correction to my understanding -- I sort of assume the basic info I was given was correct/valid.
(and of course, I do know that an oily ink doesn't guarantee that the cancel is genuine)
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
"I cannot speak for Opa, but my interpretation of his post:
1. Of all the examples Opa submitted for expertization, only 3 came back as fakes (in other words, skilled enough to filter out the likely fakes so as to only submit ones with near 100% certainty of being genuine)"
This is how I read Opa's post as well
I have many of these but consider all to be bogus.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Yes, that would make sense but doesn't really quite read that way. I to assume they are all fake even though that might be a bit harsh. Many of the used examples do not cat for much more than mint examples which would give the forger little incentive. It has always been a difficult area to deal with which require a lot of money buying certs to be content with what you have. Much easier just to collect these mint but is one of the areas that make it hard for used only collectors.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Scanned below are used blocks from my WW block collection. After reading through this discussion, I guess these are probably fakes, too.
Linus
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Linus, without checking the cancel dates/types, I would have put them in the possible genuine pile considering the ink appearance. That's the main reason for my post. On the genuine general postal cancels that I've seen, the ink color/spread typically has the appearance shown in your examples.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
I am no expert at all on determining whether these are fake or real cancels. I just put them in my collection, and enjoy looking at them. I just discovered that block of 10 with serrate roulette 13-and-one-half perfs this past weekend in a shoe box of worldwide I bought from the Stamp Out Cancer Auction years ago. I finally got down to the bottom of the shoe box and this block was off paper with a bunch of mint German stamps stuck to it. Using my spray bottle of water and a lot of patience, I managed to get it freed. It would be nice if it was real, as the 2016 Scott catalog value for Germany 305 used is $7.50 per stamp, or $75.00 for the whole block of 10!
Linus
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
I just spent about 1 1/2 hours writing a response. Then I hit a side button on my new mouse and everything was gone. So here we go again.
" 1. Of all the examples Opa submitted for expertization, only 3 came back as fakes (in other words, skilled enough to filter out the likely fakes so as to only submit ones with near 100% certainty of being genuine)
2. Cancels without the letter are from fake cancelers, but having the letter in the cancel does not mean it is genuine.
"
1.) Only two came back as false and one I found in a small collection I bought. Easy to spot with a modern DDR cancel. I´m not skilled enough to filter out everything, some are just obvious.
2.) The "V" or the "N" are a must.
As far as I know there is only one form of special cancel from 1919 that does not have these letters; W. Verfassungs Tag = Constitution Day. issued to several cities.
Band #9 of infla Berlin lists all the special cancels from between 1919 and 1923. I also have this book. Unfortunately it does not show every cancel, the ones shown however do all have the N or V.
"
1. Genuine postal cancels used an oily ink (referring only to general post office cancels, not special cancels which I have seen to clearly use non-oily ink). This often results in the following...
2. ...genuine cancels often "bleed" through slightly or significantly to the back-side
3. ...genuine cancels often "spread out" giving the appearance of blurriness or unsharp lines/curves, sometimes even resulting in "blotching"
4. ...a lot of the genuine cancels that I've seen tend NOT to be dark black, and I was wondering if this is caused in part by the "bleeding" out/thru
"
Very true, the ink likes to find it´s way through the paper. I don´t know what the ink was made of but oily is a very good description. I don´t know, I would think that the ink for special cancels would be the same. I suspect that the stamp for the Sp. cancels would be of better quality since these were only being used for very short periods of time, some only a few days: for example special events.
Also considering the fact that a postal clerk who had letters with 20 plus stamps to cancel a hundred times a day most likely didn´t like that part of his job. (Ink pad ,boom, ink pad boom.........). I have seen covers that were cancelled with a thick wax like marker called Killer Balken (LINE)that just put a heavy mark over the stamps. I guess cancelling every stamp was just to much work.
There are cancels that do look very good, even Hand cancels. Here are some. All have been proofed.
The right is a machine cancelation. If it was in the middle of the stamp and off paper, most people would probably think "FAKE".
One thing I would like to ad. I believe that when you collect a specific area and live in the country of its origin you are going to find much more originals than forgeries or fakes.
Hand cancels on this letter from Zerbst are thick and Bulky but very clean and easy to read.
"
I've always been under the impression that 90% or more of the cancellations on these stamps were fake. I find you statement that you specialize in them but have only found 3 forged cancellations, hard to understand. To those that have not heard them, there are stories of people going to the post office with wheel barrows full of cash to buy a stamps to use on mail. This extreme inflation caused used examples to be very scarce and subsequently driving their value up. It is not hard to understand how this invited the forger to fake cancels to deceive collectors.
Your statement that an N or S should follow the date to be a qualifier of legitimacy is helpful but you would think most forgers would know this and include it on their own device. I checked one of my pages (below) and all of the readable cancels did in deed have an "N" after the date. Although this does not mean they are legitimate
"
I don´t think that 90% are fake but a lot are around to pull money out of poor collectors pockets. But think of it this way how many personal letters with these stamps have you seen and how many from companies, banks etc.. In my collection I might have one or two personal letters the rest are all from companies or Banks. The really expensive stamps are not the normal ones rather the varieties. For example Michel 313-330 the entire set cancelled for the least expensive type are 110 Euros. The 325A Pb cancelled lists at 9000.- and the same stamp 325A Pa only lists at 2.5o.
In Germany many stamps from this era are considered mass, just too many around. It´s those raisins in the bowl you have to look out for. The expensive varieties are the ones most likely to be false. The inexpensive varieties that look older, perhaps a short perf. or two, slightly stained, cancel smudged but readable etc., they most likely good.
More prone to false cancels are the allied occupation stamps for Germany including USSR. I have seen lots in namely Auction houses that say "because of the cancel issue the bidding prices have been reduced". It can be a risky hobby I guess.
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
"Scanned below are used blocks from my WW block collection. After reading through this discussion, I guess these are probably fakes, too.
Linus
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I hold these for genuine, The covers are not that seldom. The Fist cover with the Cancel FRANKFURT * (MAIN) 9q is listed as possible back date. Your cover however looks good.
Blocks of four are worth much more than the listed catalog price. The 1 Milliarde stamp you have lists with a multiplication factor of 6. Nice piece.
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Opa - Thank you for your opinion. I feel a little better that these may be real cancels. I also have this cover below from the year 1925 that was sent from Frankfort to the same Paul L. Hess in Kansas City, Missouri, USA. It helps to support the probability that the previous Frankfort cover was real.
Linus
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
BPP rates ...
https://www.bpp.de/en/sonderpruefordnung-infla.html
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Looking through my other blocks from Germany, I found this one scanned below dated 11-11-18. This one is listed in the Scott catalog under France, Occupation stamps, cat. number N21, used $2.75 each stamp if real, $22.00 for the whole block. From what I have learned from everyone contributing to this post, I think this cancel is probably fake. It looks too neat and perfect, ink is thin and uniform, not blotchy and uneven, and the cancels are carefully placed at the corners of each stamp. What is your opinion?
Thanks to all who have replied on this topic,
Linus
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Linus, I defer to the others with more experience/knowledge, but I'd be shocked if that block of 8 was genuine postally used.
If you've ever seen whole sheets of these, you'd see your block is typical example of something torn from a full sheet of favor-cancels or fake back-dated cancels. The gum is soaked off to make it look used rather than CTO. I have a couple of these, although not for that issue. I think I might have a scan stored somewhere that I'll try to post later.
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That is what I thought, also. It looks like it was taken from a CTO sheet, and there is no gum on the back just as you describe. This one looks too perfect to be real.
Linus
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
OK, here is an "example" -- I know it's the wrong time period, but just to give you an idea:
I run across these in large dealer mixes, and on occasion have seen them in auction lots as well. If I remember correctly, I have several of these panes, all with the exact same cancel. Hope the person who manufactured these didn't get carpal tunnel...
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@ Linus
Can´t tell you if the cancel is real or not but it says "POSTUBERWACHUNGSSTELLE" which means Postal monitoring or Postal censorship.
This site might give you an idea about the cancel. Look at the 5th postcard from the top.
http://www.heimatsammlung.de/ganzsachen/deutsche-besetzungsausgaben/deutsche-besetzungsausgaben.htm
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re: Cancelled inflation stamps
Thanks for the link and the translation, Opa. It is the same cancel with 33, only on a postcard. Interesting.
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Hi Everyone;
Thanks Opa for that little bit of info!
I now have two sets of rubber stamps. One set has had an 'N' added and the other set has the 'V' added.
When you place your rubber stamp order, please specify either N or V, so I can ship the correct version.
I also have the Mighty Mack bridge for sale this week. It's the one that connects the upper and lower halves of Michigan.
Just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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A scan of killer bar cancel that I mentioned earlier.
This thing is not going into my main collection.
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"Thanks for the link and the translation, Opa. It is the same cancel with 33, only on a postcard. Interesting."
The censorship in this area was very strict and postcards were encouraged. Letters that had just a small mistake on the cover like incomplete names were burnt.
Also, I have found the cancel on many stamps being offered by German dealers on many sites, so I think it is a CTO, but worth keeping.
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