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Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Some people take these watermarks to a new level, like upside down, sideways and who knows what else. In early British stamps they are the only way to tell one stamp from another stamp with exactly the same design and perf. count.
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... mind blowing for a newbie like me, but i am finding it very enjoyable at the same time, glad to say been bitten by the stamp bug. regards ken.
Welcome, Ken. May I suggest, that as a self-confessed newbie, you avoid the frustration of starting with such a challenging approach?
Concentrate on stamps with no variations, and as your collection grows, so will your knowledge ... especially if you take advantage of the knowledgeable people available at this site.
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05:36:02am
"... i realized ........ there are ten different kinds.also six different ways they are printed, that's a combination of sixty watermarks, mind blowing for a newbie like me, ..."
The good news, Ken, is that for the most part an individual British stamp seldom has more than a few possibilities. As you go along you should see that several watermarks were only used on pre-1900 issues, while others only on either early or late 20th century issues and not both. Many issues do exist with the watermark in several possible formats (Upright, inverted or sideways.) but not all.
I'd not ignore them entirely as there are quite a few instances where a common minimal value issue "watermark upright" can be had for pennies, but if inverted carries a significant premium.
I often recall tossing a bundle of QE II Wildings in the trash for disposal. A shipmate came by my room with a bunch he had found being emptied over the side of the ship by a stewards mate. As the trash can's contents went into the Pacific, due to cross winds some of the stamps were blown back aboard the ship near where one of the ship's radio operators was sipping some fresh coffee. He salvaged most of what had not been disposed of, found out where the trash can was from and sought me out. He showed me that there were three watermarks and several orientations, something I hadn't known. I did not know he was a collector and I had just begun my renewed interest. Over the next couple of months I learned that there was more to stamping than just one example of every color. He loaned me his Elizabethan Catalog and showed me his albums of Newfoundland and of US Airmails. Since then I never fail to at least look at the watermarks.
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The final British stamps of WW2 were in booklets issued in 1942, where standard King George VI definitives came with sideways watermarks. (The 1d., 2d. and 2½d. stamps.) In the early 1950s the Wilding definitives arrived first on 'Tudor crown' paper, then three years later all over again on 'St Edward's Crown' paper. Goodness knows why. I doubt they were looking at the philatelic market at that time.
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09:03:29am
".... then three years later all over again on 'St Edward's Crown' paper. Goodness knows why ..."
I seem to recall that it had something to do with a question as to the use of the Tudor Crown and E2R to represent the four components of The United Kingdoms of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Historically there occasionally had been some unpleasantness between the English Tudors, and the following UK rulers, the Stuarts of Scotland, and of course the current Queen is of the Windsor family which was of Germanic origin. Thus as the Tudor Crown and E2R was a source of contention, the new watermark showed the St Edwards crown, said to date back to Edward the Confessor, the last Anglo-Saxon king.
That attempt still failed to satisfy everyone, since Edward the Confessor did not rule Scotland, Wales or , heaven forfend Ireland, so about three years later they removed the "E2R" from that watermark because that also referred to the reign of Henry VIII's daughter, Elizabeth I, who was a part of the previously mentioned unpleasantness. From then on, till the Machins were produced on un-watermarked paper, the UK used a multi-crown watermark showing a representation of the St Edward's Crown.
The current version of the St Edward's crown had to be re-created because what was supposed to be the original had been melted down during the reign of Oliver Cromwell..
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Avro, look up my "THE HOARD" posts. I feel your pain.
What I (eventually) found helpful in preserving my last thread of sanity was collecting one of each denomination/colour variation and not worrying about watermarks too early. Having some album pages with actual stamps on them is a beautiful thing. But it's easy to get too obsessive about those little details that no-one can see when looking at your collection!
Like me (and a lot us I'm sure) you have to decide to be a "collector" not an "investor" or an "expert".
I have sometimes many hundreds of these issues (Germany and Great Britain) set aside for some time when I will just take a quiet rainy Sunday to do nothing but watermark investigations. Then I can start to flesh out the different pages qualified by such.
Hope this feedback from another (frustrated) rookie helps.
Dave.
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I keep a small black watermark tray and a bottle of Clarity watermark fluid on my desk at all times. To me it would be too frustrating NOT to check for a watermark if the stamp has more than one possibility of such. Like Lemaven, I may set a pile of stamps aside for a while before checking, but I would never mount a stamp in an album if there was doubt.
I would disagree with the idea the newbies should not bother with watermarks. Watermarks are great fun to solve. And part of the learning process. I don't understand why people warn newbies about becoming obsessive, obsessiveness is a good thing, I call it passion. But then again, I could be obsessive.
Cheers,
Eric
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A couple of the most irritating things for me are that Gibbons for some strange reason illustrate the watermarks as seen from the front of the stamp, which is great if you only have the paper before the printing.
Secondly on some stamps, especially the heavier colours (Hong Kong comes to mind) it is virtually impossible to observe even a portion of a watermark.
I have spent ages over a watermark tray and still end up with many unidentified stamps.
I do agree that it can make a great monetary difference on occasion and try to correctly identify stamps wherever possible but for the average run of the mill collection, useful but not necessary.
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I too like to check for watermarks, as I think that they are an integral part of the stamp. And who knows, maybe I'll find a inverted upside down windfall one day.
In the meantime, I, like Vic, can be frustrated by the process. As a collector of Bermuda, I find that the watermarks on some issues, particularly the KGV and KGVI Key Plates, which are printed on colored paper in rather dark shades, are particularly difficult to detect.
I spent several hours this past weekend peering into my watermark detector, scanning stamps and using a diving rod when trying to figure out print runs of a group of KGV 10/ issues.
David
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hello all.thank you for the nice comments and reply's, dave i am a collector, and all ready started world wide, also have the 2016 scott catalogue's which are a god send as you can find the year and set,still getting used to the perfins but use a gauge when stuck, once again thanks to all. regards ken
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I agree with you David about Bermuda. They have me pulling out what little hair I have left. Even the modern ones are ridiculously invisible.
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When it comes to inverted watermarks there are various schools of thought.
There are some who only collect these where they are deliberate - eg. for booklets coils or tete beche issues.
With many older British Commonwealth stamps there are "accidental" inverts, and some collectors feel that these are not different,but merely an error of the normal. Before the days of continuous reel printing, sheets of paper were fed into the machine by hand. Sometimes these were accidentally fed with the watermark upside down ( or even fed with the paper wrong side up !). For many years Gibbons didn't list these as there were no records as to which stamps ( or how many sheets) were affected. I don't know whether this has changed, but occasionally "Gibbons Stamp Monthly" mentioned new discoveries. Many modern Commonwealth stamps were issued wth upright or sideways watermarks as a result of a change of printing machine or printer, and these are listed as this was a deliberate act.
As they say "you pays your money and takes your choice".
Malcolm
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Hello all. this is my first post, i decided to buy some british commenwealth stamps, what a shock when i saw the watermarks, it was only later that i relised i needed a chart showing types of watermarks,found one sent for it got it,there are ten different kinds.also six different ways they are printed, thats a combination of sixty watermarks, mind blowing for a newbie like me,but i am finding it very enjoyable at the same time,glad to say been bitten by the stamp bug. regards ken.
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re: british watermarks.
Some people take these watermarks to a new level, like upside down, sideways and who knows what else. In early British stamps they are the only way to tell one stamp from another stamp with exactly the same design and perf. count.
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re: british watermarks.
... mind blowing for a newbie like me, but i am finding it very enjoyable at the same time, glad to say been bitten by the stamp bug. regards ken.
Welcome, Ken. May I suggest, that as a self-confessed newbie, you avoid the frustration of starting with such a challenging approach?
Concentrate on stamps with no variations, and as your collection grows, so will your knowledge ... especially if you take advantage of the knowledgeable people available at this site.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Jan 2017
05:36:02am
re: british watermarks.
"... i realized ........ there are ten different kinds.also six different ways they are printed, that's a combination of sixty watermarks, mind blowing for a newbie like me, ..."
The good news, Ken, is that for the most part an individual British stamp seldom has more than a few possibilities. As you go along you should see that several watermarks were only used on pre-1900 issues, while others only on either early or late 20th century issues and not both. Many issues do exist with the watermark in several possible formats (Upright, inverted or sideways.) but not all.
I'd not ignore them entirely as there are quite a few instances where a common minimal value issue "watermark upright" can be had for pennies, but if inverted carries a significant premium.
I often recall tossing a bundle of QE II Wildings in the trash for disposal. A shipmate came by my room with a bunch he had found being emptied over the side of the ship by a stewards mate. As the trash can's contents went into the Pacific, due to cross winds some of the stamps were blown back aboard the ship near where one of the ship's radio operators was sipping some fresh coffee. He salvaged most of what had not been disposed of, found out where the trash can was from and sought me out. He showed me that there were three watermarks and several orientations, something I hadn't known. I did not know he was a collector and I had just begun my renewed interest. Over the next couple of months I learned that there was more to stamping than just one example of every color. He loaned me his Elizabethan Catalog and showed me his albums of Newfoundland and of US Airmails. Since then I never fail to at least look at the watermarks.
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re: british watermarks.
The final British stamps of WW2 were in booklets issued in 1942, where standard King George VI definitives came with sideways watermarks. (The 1d., 2d. and 2½d. stamps.) In the early 1950s the Wilding definitives arrived first on 'Tudor crown' paper, then three years later all over again on 'St Edward's Crown' paper. Goodness knows why. I doubt they were looking at the philatelic market at that time.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Jan 2017
09:03:29am
re: british watermarks.
".... then three years later all over again on 'St Edward's Crown' paper. Goodness knows why ..."
I seem to recall that it had something to do with a question as to the use of the Tudor Crown and E2R to represent the four components of The United Kingdoms of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Historically there occasionally had been some unpleasantness between the English Tudors, and the following UK rulers, the Stuarts of Scotland, and of course the current Queen is of the Windsor family which was of Germanic origin. Thus as the Tudor Crown and E2R was a source of contention, the new watermark showed the St Edwards crown, said to date back to Edward the Confessor, the last Anglo-Saxon king.
That attempt still failed to satisfy everyone, since Edward the Confessor did not rule Scotland, Wales or , heaven forfend Ireland, so about three years later they removed the "E2R" from that watermark because that also referred to the reign of Henry VIII's daughter, Elizabeth I, who was a part of the previously mentioned unpleasantness. From then on, till the Machins were produced on un-watermarked paper, the UK used a multi-crown watermark showing a representation of the St Edward's Crown.
The current version of the St Edward's crown had to be re-created because what was supposed to be the original had been melted down during the reign of Oliver Cromwell..
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re: british watermarks.
Avro, look up my "THE HOARD" posts. I feel your pain.
What I (eventually) found helpful in preserving my last thread of sanity was collecting one of each denomination/colour variation and not worrying about watermarks too early. Having some album pages with actual stamps on them is a beautiful thing. But it's easy to get too obsessive about those little details that no-one can see when looking at your collection!
Like me (and a lot us I'm sure) you have to decide to be a "collector" not an "investor" or an "expert".
I have sometimes many hundreds of these issues (Germany and Great Britain) set aside for some time when I will just take a quiet rainy Sunday to do nothing but watermark investigations. Then I can start to flesh out the different pages qualified by such.
Hope this feedback from another (frustrated) rookie helps.
Dave.
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this post
re: british watermarks.
I keep a small black watermark tray and a bottle of Clarity watermark fluid on my desk at all times. To me it would be too frustrating NOT to check for a watermark if the stamp has more than one possibility of such. Like Lemaven, I may set a pile of stamps aside for a while before checking, but I would never mount a stamp in an album if there was doubt.
I would disagree with the idea the newbies should not bother with watermarks. Watermarks are great fun to solve. And part of the learning process. I don't understand why people warn newbies about becoming obsessive, obsessiveness is a good thing, I call it passion. But then again, I could be obsessive.
Cheers,
Eric
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re: british watermarks.
A couple of the most irritating things for me are that Gibbons for some strange reason illustrate the watermarks as seen from the front of the stamp, which is great if you only have the paper before the printing.
Secondly on some stamps, especially the heavier colours (Hong Kong comes to mind) it is virtually impossible to observe even a portion of a watermark.
I have spent ages over a watermark tray and still end up with many unidentified stamps.
I do agree that it can make a great monetary difference on occasion and try to correctly identify stamps wherever possible but for the average run of the mill collection, useful but not necessary.
Login to Like
this post
re: british watermarks.
I too like to check for watermarks, as I think that they are an integral part of the stamp. And who knows, maybe I'll find a inverted upside down windfall one day.
In the meantime, I, like Vic, can be frustrated by the process. As a collector of Bermuda, I find that the watermarks on some issues, particularly the KGV and KGVI Key Plates, which are printed on colored paper in rather dark shades, are particularly difficult to detect.
I spent several hours this past weekend peering into my watermark detector, scanning stamps and using a diving rod when trying to figure out print runs of a group of KGV 10/ issues.
David
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this post
re: british watermarks.
hello all.thank you for the nice comments and reply's, dave i am a collector, and all ready started world wide, also have the 2016 scott catalogue's which are a god send as you can find the year and set,still getting used to the perfins but use a gauge when stuck, once again thanks to all. regards ken
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re: british watermarks.
I agree with you David about Bermuda. They have me pulling out what little hair I have left. Even the modern ones are ridiculously invisible.
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04:28:29pm
re: british watermarks.
When it comes to inverted watermarks there are various schools of thought.
There are some who only collect these where they are deliberate - eg. for booklets coils or tete beche issues.
With many older British Commonwealth stamps there are "accidental" inverts, and some collectors feel that these are not different,but merely an error of the normal. Before the days of continuous reel printing, sheets of paper were fed into the machine by hand. Sometimes these were accidentally fed with the watermark upside down ( or even fed with the paper wrong side up !). For many years Gibbons didn't list these as there were no records as to which stamps ( or how many sheets) were affected. I don't know whether this has changed, but occasionally "Gibbons Stamp Monthly" mentioned new discoveries. Many modern Commonwealth stamps were issued wth upright or sideways watermarks as a result of a change of printing machine or printer, and these are listed as this was a deliberate act.
As they say "you pays your money and takes your choice".
Malcolm
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