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Europe/Great Britain : Machin ID help

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sheepshanks
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16 Jan 2017
09:33:40pm
Have just come across this 17p Deep blue, no phosphor lines show up under UV but paper very bright as PCP. Printing is Photogravure, and there does not appear to be a screened value.
From the margin piece they seem not to be a booklet stamps.
Would these be sheet stamps but with missing phosphor?
Comments from our resident experts would be appreciated.
Image Not FoundImage Not Found

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phos45
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https://machinstudygroup.blogspot.ca/
16 Jan 2017
11:00:44pm
re: Machin ID help

all issued were FCP, MFP errors from DP 162, 162 and 170N booklets

check if perfs are cut or torn

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sheepshanks
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17 Jan 2017
10:50:56am
re: Machin ID help

Thanks Mack for your reply. Perfs are torn not cut so that would make it a sheet stamp rather than a booklet.
So this defines the stamp as SG X 910 but with missing Phosphor lines. X 911 stamps all being from booklets.
My 2014 concise does not list this as a variety but maybe a later edition or the specialized does.
I do not have access to Deegam but possibly you or Charlie may have.
Anyway an extra variety to go in the album.


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malcolm197
17 Jan 2017
01:01:10pm
re: Machin ID help

I think DP170 was a Questa Litho booklet ( source Connoisseur Catalogue of Machin Stamps ).
The format was 3 rows of 2x17p stamps.

This is a Harrison photogravure stamp so it must be Conn. reference RFA171NP from 50p booklet pane DP162 ( 3 x 17p horizontal se tenant). Each individual stamp is catalogued in my somewhat out of date Conn. catalogue at only 10 times the price of a stamp with the band, so I suspect that there were (are?) quite a lot out there. The specialist Machin dealers at that time were able to ensure good supplies of most of the "odd" stamps as they had their ears very close to the ground. Cat price 1995 was £8.00 each.

However postally used copies might be a very different kettle of fish. I have handled several 1000 17p blue stamps from kiloware - booklet and coil stamps are scarcer than sheet stamps by a factor of several 100 to 1, and I have never seen a used missing phosphor example.

Malcolm

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sheepshanks
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17 Jan 2017
01:33:06pm
re: Machin ID help

Thanks Malcolm but cannot find a 50p booklet that contains 3@17p (51p). My Concise does not show any 17p Deep Blue in a strip of 3 horizontal in booklet form.
The 17p grey blue does come this way in the 5.00 Times and British Rail Prestige Books.
Will have a look at the on-line Machin dealers and see what they have.

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phos45
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17 Jan 2017
09:41:13pm
re: Machin ID help

join the group ...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/machincollecting/

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malcolm197
18 Jan 2017
11:21:15am
re: Machin ID help

Sheepshanks

You are quite right. The booklet pane I quoted is actually label + 17p stamp over 2x 17p stamps ( giving 3 x 17 in total).

This means that there are no 17p missing phosphor listed in my catalogue which equates to the format of your strip.

The only reliable source of information is the Deegam catalogue, perhaps one of the kind members here who has said catalogue might look for it on your behalf.

Sorry for duff information given. I only looked for 3 x 17p, and not the format of the pane.
The DP number by the way is the reference for the pane, the booklet ref. is DB14 ( which only contains one pane anyway).

I have to say that the "Concise" catalogue is fairly simplified in nature, The SG catalogue containing the best Machin information is SG Great Britain Specialised Catalogue Volume 4 QE2 Decimal Definitive issues. I have the 1994 edition which runs to 671 pages !!( just on Machins !!). Actually this shows a missing phosphor variety from cylinder 17 or 19. According to Conn. cat cylinder 19 has screening dots across the value,therefore cylinder 17 may be the source. However Connoisseur does not mention a missing phosphor for this.

Malcolm

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sheepshanks
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18 Jan 2017
03:45:11pm
re: Machin ID help

Thanks Malcolm, I have not found any other such 17p stamps on any of the dealers sites and am wondering if I'm missing the phosphor lines. I have checked up, down and diagonally across the stamps, visually to sunlight and incandescent bulb and also in a dark room with UV light in all directions but zilch trace of phosphor.
Pending further information I will mount them as possible missed tagging. They will not be worth a fortune anyway.

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phos45
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18 Jan 2017
08:11:36pm
re: Machin ID help

SGS U251b 8.00 ex UFB69Image Not Found

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sheepshanks
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18 Jan 2017
08:36:06pm
re: Machin ID help

Mack, Thanks for the chart and detail but I'm either being very thick or stupid but booklet FB69 was a 1994 one containing pane Y1689I which is an elliptical perf machin. Mine is not so perforated.
The Deegam chart appears to put the stamps in the top section as either the first or sixth stamp, maybe you can correct me if wrong.
Presume the SGS U251b 8.00 ex UFB69 reference is the Specialised catalogue referred to earlier by Malcolm.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
19 Jan 2017
03:02:54am
re: Machin ID help

Sorry to have been napping this week a lot. I just noticed this strip and it looks like the legwork is all done,
Deegam shows four regular (Level two.) listings for the 17p blue;
Three are Photo,
DG 170.9 sheets,
DG170.10 booklets DP162 and DP163,
DG170.11 booklets DP287 and DP170,
And one litho
DG170.12 Questa litho.

Since Litho is out, Appendex Two of the Deegam handbook provides the illustration that the booklets listed do not contain any horizontal strip three stamps wide, eliminating them.
The booklets are also all printed SR and your example is obviously U, ( Upright. Notice the way the little points where the blue color meets the white of the value.) so they, despite there being about twenty minor varieties, are out.

That leaves DG170.09, Harrison Photo with three level three varieties;
DG170. 9.1, DG170.9.3, sheets, CB, photo and U,
and the very similar DG170.9.2,
but that is a coil which eliminates it from contention.
As we get along, we should note that both DG170.9.1 and DG170.9.3 have a sub variety DG170. 9.1a and DG170.9.3a, but they are screened varieties, just put there to puzzle collectors. The screen would be seen in the white area of the value in the expanded scan and unless I can't see the screen, a there is none, eliminating DG170.9.1a, and DG170.9.3a .

DG170.9.1 and DG170.9.3 are identical except for having been printed from different plates on different dates, so a marginal notation would be needed to decide which is the lucky girl. If there were a cancellation showing use before 4-9-90 that could prove a stamp was DG170.9.1.

That leaves us with the problem of the missing center band, as we seem to have a newly discovered variety. Is it possible that the strip was soaked off a cover using a warmer than tepid water bath ? Cold water with a short immersion time is required as sometimes hotter water can affect the bands. Barring that, we need to get in contact with Deegam, but in that we are fortunate as Doug frequently glances over our philatelic musings.

Just for the record, almost all of my comment here is quickly obvious to Deegam owners as soon as they bring up the page, D170-6, that Mack scanned and posted.

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malcolm197
19 Jan 2017
07:44:41am
re: Machin ID help

Sheepshanks

I take it you are using a short wave uv lamp?

Here is a trick. You need to be a totally dark(black out room). Place your stamp face up on a black surface. Expose the stamp for at least 30 seconds with the lamp with your eyes firmly closed. This should "excite" the smallest trace of phosphor on your stamp.
Switch off the light and open your eyes simultaneously. See if the stamp glows for a second or two (however faintly). If so it has had phosphor which has washed off or otherwise disappeared and so is not "missing phosphor".

I have used this trick on used stamps which have been well soaked. It even works on washed Wilding stamps which have three different types of phosphor identified by the length of time that the bands glow after you switch off the light.

Your stamps appear to be mint. If they still have the gum they will not have had the phosphor washed off. It has been said that prolongued exposure to u/v light can remove the phosphor reaction, but I remain unconvinced that this is possible without fading the colour of the stamp.

I think that the only possible explanation, however unlikely, is that the cylinder 17 note in my SG catalogue has somehow been missed by everyone else. An updated catalogue,however, may have this note removed,if the original information appeared in error. Bearing in mind that every advanced Machin collector and dealer uses Deegam as the "Bible",and notifies Douglas of every new discovery that appears, I have to say that this premise is most unlikely. It is also very unlikely that a missing phosphor sheet stamp has not appeared elsewhere, and been widely publicised among officianados.

There is another remote possibility. Ultra violet lights deteriorate over time due to changes in the chemical composition of the gases in the tube. Pending the purchase of a new lamp I am using one which is well past it's "sell by" date. It only works on very strong phosphors, and the afterglow only lasts for a fraction of a second. You should try your lamp on a "test example" that you know works.

Malcolm

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sheepshanks
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19 Jan 2017
10:11:06am
re: Machin ID help

Thanks everyone for your input, following Malcolms dark room suggestion and having put new batteries in my hand held UV light, I find a very weak centre band making these X911.
I did have to give a minimum exposure of 30 seconds before viewing and then cover part of the stamps to verify where the lines were.
Sorry to have led everyone on a goose chase but at least it gave some brain cells an airing.
Thank you again to everyone, your help is greatly appreciated.

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phos45
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19 Jan 2017
11:51:23am
re: Machin ID help

Image Not Found



this allows sortation ... also capture UV image with icard camera


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Collectibles-Camera-for-ACEO-Stamps-Coins-Watches-Small-Flat-Items-Easy-to-Use-/182420606023?hash=item2a791d8c47:g:21IAAMXQ2dBSGqy6

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jthurd
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19 Jan 2017
11:09:39pm
re: Machin ID help

Far from leading anyone on a goose chase, this thread provided a very helpful lesson in identification.

Thanks for an interesting and educational study.

My observation is that on many of the used (and likely well soaked) examples of the 17p dark blue issue in my accumulation the centre bar tagging is hard to see with the naked eye because it is weak.

James T. Hurd.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Jan 2017
04:23:36am
re: Machin ID help

0" ... Sorry to have led everyone on a goose chase but at least it gave some brain cells an airing. ..."

These are the ways we learn how to proceed in the dark arts of Machinization.
Remember the maxim " There is no such thing as a foolish question, only those who foolishly fear to ask their question..

" ... Bearing in mind that every advanced Machin collector and dealer uses Deegam as the "Bible",and notifies Douglas of every new discovery that appears, I have to say that this premise is most unlikely. It is also very unlikely that a missing phosphor sheet stamp has not appeared elsewhere, and been widely publicised among officianados. ..."

This is true, but then those new discoveries have to be found by someone first, and while almost twenty years of not being found by one of those who flyspeck every single Machin that crosses their desk, such unidentified, almost unique, items may be lying in an album just awaiting the next curious person to examine it.

And as for a SG catalogue having an error, that is many times more likely than finding a blue 17p with a missing phosphor band. The last reprint of volume four specialized was a disgrace, hardly worth the money.

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Machinhigh
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20 Jan 2017
06:12:10am
re: Machin ID help

Hi Guys n Gals,
I have been following this topic with some interest, looking firstly at the 17p strip I note that the jubilee bar is to the right and not at the foot which is odd I would suggest that this item could be printers waste or trial printing as mentioned it's strange that not even a postal used copy has been found the only example of missing phosphor I have is U253 imperf booklet stamp all that apart it is a nice find and should be submitted to the MCC or other professional body for full examination oh and ask for a certificate, just my 5 cents worth.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Jan 2017
06:12:29pm
re: Machin ID help

Right on cue, Michael Baadke, writing in Linns reports a US Official stamp found in a large lot that has phosphor missing.

" .... Collector discovers error variety of 1983 Official Mail coil stamp
January 13, 2017 05:00 PM


The cover bearing the tagging-omitted 20¢ Official Mail error stamp was mailed from one government office in central Texas to another, presumably between 1983 and early 1985.
This United States 20¢ Great Seal Official Mail coil stamp from 1983 has been certified as a tagging-omitted error. Shown here graphically cropped, it is the first tagging error reported for the 1983 Official Mail issue.;;l;..;"


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sgm
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26 Jan 2019
12:25:49am
re: Machin ID help

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I am new to collecting Machins. Can someone expand on the direction of printing?

Quote:

"The booklets are also all printed SR and your example is obviously U, ( Upright. Notice the way the little points where the blue color meets the white of the value.)"



Thanks.
Scott
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"Spending my children's inheritance one stamp at a time"
malcolm197
02 Apr 2019
03:01:42pm
re: Machin ID help

The direction of printing differences only apply to photogravure stamps.

If you look at the edge of the stamp under high magnification you will find on one edge a row of spikes and at the opposite edge a row of loops. If these are top and bottom it means that the printing is in the vertical plane and if they are on the sides it is in the horizontal plane.

Unfortunately I am not aware of whether the spikes or loops indicate the actual direction ( top to bottom or bottom to top/ right to left or left to right ).

In any case it is not fool proof as stamps which are heavy inked often are difficult to distinguish. If you must look for direction of printing, best to sort out all the other distinguishing factors first.

While by no means a Machin specialist ( just a highly-advanced learner !), I have never felt the need ( or desire ) to look for the direction of printing - my eyes are already crossed enough looking closely at Machins !!

Malcolm

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