Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Linus
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Nice backstamps on the cover Linus. I am puzzled though, why this mailing went to Canada first and not direct to the USA.
Edit:
I see there is a Springfield in Nova Scotia and one in Ontario, amongst a couple of others. Perhaps this was mis-directed, although I find it hard to believe anyone would not see 'MASS, USA'.
Maybe there's a simpler explanation. The post date may indicate which ship(s) and route were used.
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Ningpo,
I have done some past research on this cover. I think the answer to your question is this was the fastest and the cheapest route at the time in 1902. The Canadian Pacific Railroad (CPR) had a contract with Great Britain to subsidize mail service between Britain and Hong Kong via Canada. CPR had their own steam powered sailing ships that made regular Pacific Ocean crossings carrying mail, passengers, and freight for over 50 years.
This cover arrived in Vancouver, B.C., Canada on May 9, 1902. CPR eastbound sailing tables show the SS Tartar arrived in Vancouver that same day. CPR then carried it by rail across Canada to the eastern USA. I think this was the fastest, cheapest route from HK.
Linus
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I wasn't aware of this arrangement. Linus do you have any covers/stamps with any CPR markings?
Just this week I noticed two late Victorian stamps (probably from the 1900 issue) with oval (ovoid ?) handstamps with the initials C.P.R. I think one was in purple. These were from two different sellers.
I'd never seen these before.
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I have the two examples below of the Canadian Pacific Railroad purple oval security marking on King Edward issues. I do not have this marking on a Queen Victoria issue.
Linus
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As we're talking about Canadian Pacific Railways, I have this card which was pperhaps sent to a shareholder in the UK, around the same time period as your EDVII 'CPR' hand stamped copies:
I have another, for the following year, sent to the same recipient.
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Ningpo, those Net Profits for CPR were mighty good back in 1908 dollars. Thanks for sharing that card. The railroads made some people very wealthy I am sure.
I will share with you and the club my source of information:
Go to www.postalhistorycanada.net
Click on the RESEARCH tab
Click on the ARTICLES tab
Click on the link "Sailing Tables for the Pacific" by Gray Scrimgeour
Here you can read up a little about the CPR, see a list of all their ships, and get access to CPR shipping tables, as well as other information.
For my Victoria cover at the start of this post, it arrived at Vancouver on May 9, 1902.
Under Shipping Tables, click on "Canadian-Pacific Line- eastbound"
Find the year 1902 and in the right column where you see "Arrive Vancouver" dates.
Find May 9 date and you will see the SS Tartar arrived on that date.
That is my source of information on this Victoria cover.
Linus
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Stereoscopic image of CPR vessel S.S. Tartar listing in Vancouver Harbour. This must be after its collision with S.S. Charmer in October, 1907 (she was scrapped in 1908).
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I find it pretty amazing all the things that can be learned from researching the history of just one cover in your collection.
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Well, what a coincidence. This just sold on eBay two minutes ago:
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Nice to see what later CPR ship carried mail from Hong Kong looked like, Ningpo. Thanks for posting this cover. I slightly reworded this thread's title to reflect what this discussion has become, in case someone later wants to find reference to the CPR.
Below are Hong Kong block multiples I have posted elsewhere in a different thread. I use it again to show the Victoria, B.C., Canada arrival cancellation of May 12, 1903. Using the same CPR eastbound shipping tables mentioned above, for the year 1903, these Hong Kong stamps were on a piece of mail carried aboard the CPR ship "The Empress of India" which arrived in Victoria B.C. that same day.
Linus
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Oh you are a tease Linus!
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Hey Ningpo, this month I traveled up to Maplewood, Minnesota, USA for the second Sunday stamp show, and I found another one there. This Hong Kong stamp is cancelled Victoria, B.C., Canada and under my magnifier it appears to be "OC 7 02" for the date: October 7, 1902. This date does not cross over to a CPR ship arrival exact date on the tables.
Linus
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This week I acquired a Queen Victoria stamp with the CPR security marking, and recently I found a postcard showing a CPR ship in the Victoria, B.C., Canada harbor. My CPR collection is growing...one thing leads to another.
Linus
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I recently added this Queen Victoria stamp with a red CPR security marking to my collection. Now I have the CPR marking in both purple and red.
Linus
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I recently found another interesting postcard at the local antique mall to add to my growing CPR collection. As you know, from my other posts on this board, I am interested in the fleet of CPR ships that carried mail and passengers across the Pacific Ocean to Hong Kong and Japan in the early 1900s. This RPPC shows the CPR wharf and train depot in Vancouver, BC, Canada, and was mailed December 19, 1909 to Macksburg, Iowa, USA. At the bottom, there are horses and a carriage with men in suits waiting around at a passenger train depot. At the left, women in white dresses, with more men in suits, head down to the waiting ocean liner. In the center, there are 3 train cars at a freight depot with two being ordinary Canadian Pacific box cars, but that third car was surprising. The right train car is actually an Anheuser-Busch beer car from St. Louis, Missouri, USA. This must mean that the CPR westbound ships were stocked with American beer for their passengers to enjoy during their trip to Hong Kong and Yokohama Japan.
Linus
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From Wikipedia, I found a picture of the beer car and more info about Anheuser-Busch can be read at this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anheuser-Busch
Linus
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Awesome card, Linus!
I love those high-res picture postcards. Often, under magnification, an incredible amount of detail can be discerned, which is historically, very enlightening.
My take on the Anheuser-Busch railcar is that it's an empty, headed back to St Louis after a west-coast delivery. Is it possible to make any presumption on whether it's loaded or not, based on the appearance of the truck springs? On the card, can you make out the attribution in the center of the side? On the wiki photo, it's St.L.R.C.Co. 3601, which I would interpret as St Louis Rail Car Company.
Thanks for posting!
-Paul
PS, Incredibly, Macksburg is not (yet) a DPO. Census was 113, in 2010.
PPS, Mertz is a name still associated with Madison County...
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Thanks, Paul, for the kind words. On the postcard, under magnification, you can make out part of the letters L R C Co, so this beer car is the same as the Wiki photo, and from my link to the Anheuser-Busch Wiki article, the railroad line was established by the brewery under the name "St. Louis Refrigerator Car Company." Also, the beer car on my postcard is definitely leaning lower on the left side and higher on the right as it sits on the track. Perhaps it was partially unloaded? Who knows. They also would have loaded it with blocks of ice upon leaving St. Louis. I was just surprised to see this beer car so far from home base.
Linus
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I would like to share this cover from my collection that came to me in an auction lot of foreign covers. This cover traveled from Hong Kong to Vancouver, B.C., Canada to Springfield, Massachusetts, USA in 1902.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Nice backstamps on the cover Linus. I am puzzled though, why this mailing went to Canada first and not direct to the USA.
Edit:
I see there is a Springfield in Nova Scotia and one in Ontario, amongst a couple of others. Perhaps this was mis-directed, although I find it hard to believe anyone would not see 'MASS, USA'.
Maybe there's a simpler explanation. The post date may indicate which ship(s) and route were used.
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Ningpo,
I have done some past research on this cover. I think the answer to your question is this was the fastest and the cheapest route at the time in 1902. The Canadian Pacific Railroad (CPR) had a contract with Great Britain to subsidize mail service between Britain and Hong Kong via Canada. CPR had their own steam powered sailing ships that made regular Pacific Ocean crossings carrying mail, passengers, and freight for over 50 years.
This cover arrived in Vancouver, B.C., Canada on May 9, 1902. CPR eastbound sailing tables show the SS Tartar arrived in Vancouver that same day. CPR then carried it by rail across Canada to the eastern USA. I think this was the fastest, cheapest route from HK.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
I wasn't aware of this arrangement. Linus do you have any covers/stamps with any CPR markings?
Just this week I noticed two late Victorian stamps (probably from the 1900 issue) with oval (ovoid ?) handstamps with the initials C.P.R. I think one was in purple. These were from two different sellers.
I'd never seen these before.
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
I have the two examples below of the Canadian Pacific Railroad purple oval security marking on King Edward issues. I do not have this marking on a Queen Victoria issue.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
As we're talking about Canadian Pacific Railways, I have this card which was pperhaps sent to a shareholder in the UK, around the same time period as your EDVII 'CPR' hand stamped copies:
I have another, for the following year, sent to the same recipient.
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Ningpo, those Net Profits for CPR were mighty good back in 1908 dollars. Thanks for sharing that card. The railroads made some people very wealthy I am sure.
I will share with you and the club my source of information:
Go to www.postalhistorycanada.net
Click on the RESEARCH tab
Click on the ARTICLES tab
Click on the link "Sailing Tables for the Pacific" by Gray Scrimgeour
Here you can read up a little about the CPR, see a list of all their ships, and get access to CPR shipping tables, as well as other information.
For my Victoria cover at the start of this post, it arrived at Vancouver on May 9, 1902.
Under Shipping Tables, click on "Canadian-Pacific Line- eastbound"
Find the year 1902 and in the right column where you see "Arrive Vancouver" dates.
Find May 9 date and you will see the SS Tartar arrived on that date.
That is my source of information on this Victoria cover.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Stereoscopic image of CPR vessel S.S. Tartar listing in Vancouver Harbour. This must be after its collision with S.S. Charmer in October, 1907 (she was scrapped in 1908).
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
I find it pretty amazing all the things that can be learned from researching the history of just one cover in your collection.
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this post
re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Well, what a coincidence. This just sold on eBay two minutes ago:
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Nice to see what later CPR ship carried mail from Hong Kong looked like, Ningpo. Thanks for posting this cover. I slightly reworded this thread's title to reflect what this discussion has become, in case someone later wants to find reference to the CPR.
Below are Hong Kong block multiples I have posted elsewhere in a different thread. I use it again to show the Victoria, B.C., Canada arrival cancellation of May 12, 1903. Using the same CPR eastbound shipping tables mentioned above, for the year 1903, these Hong Kong stamps were on a piece of mail carried aboard the CPR ship "The Empress of India" which arrived in Victoria B.C. that same day.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Oh you are a tease Linus!
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Hey Ningpo, this month I traveled up to Maplewood, Minnesota, USA for the second Sunday stamp show, and I found another one there. This Hong Kong stamp is cancelled Victoria, B.C., Canada and under my magnifier it appears to be "OC 7 02" for the date: October 7, 1902. This date does not cross over to a CPR ship arrival exact date on the tables.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
This week I acquired a Queen Victoria stamp with the CPR security marking, and recently I found a postcard showing a CPR ship in the Victoria, B.C., Canada harbor. My CPR collection is growing...one thing leads to another.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
I recently added this Queen Victoria stamp with a red CPR security marking to my collection. Now I have the CPR marking in both purple and red.
Linus
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this post
re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
I recently found another interesting postcard at the local antique mall to add to my growing CPR collection. As you know, from my other posts on this board, I am interested in the fleet of CPR ships that carried mail and passengers across the Pacific Ocean to Hong Kong and Japan in the early 1900s. This RPPC shows the CPR wharf and train depot in Vancouver, BC, Canada, and was mailed December 19, 1909 to Macksburg, Iowa, USA. At the bottom, there are horses and a carriage with men in suits waiting around at a passenger train depot. At the left, women in white dresses, with more men in suits, head down to the waiting ocean liner. In the center, there are 3 train cars at a freight depot with two being ordinary Canadian Pacific box cars, but that third car was surprising. The right train car is actually an Anheuser-Busch beer car from St. Louis, Missouri, USA. This must mean that the CPR westbound ships were stocked with American beer for their passengers to enjoy during their trip to Hong Kong and Yokohama Japan.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
From Wikipedia, I found a picture of the beer car and more info about Anheuser-Busch can be read at this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anheuser-Busch
Linus
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11:20:12am
re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Awesome card, Linus!
I love those high-res picture postcards. Often, under magnification, an incredible amount of detail can be discerned, which is historically, very enlightening.
My take on the Anheuser-Busch railcar is that it's an empty, headed back to St Louis after a west-coast delivery. Is it possible to make any presumption on whether it's loaded or not, based on the appearance of the truck springs? On the card, can you make out the attribution in the center of the side? On the wiki photo, it's St.L.R.C.Co. 3601, which I would interpret as St Louis Rail Car Company.
Thanks for posting!
-Paul
PS, Incredibly, Macksburg is not (yet) a DPO. Census was 113, in 2010.
PPS, Mertz is a name still associated with Madison County...
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re: Hong Kong: Queen Victoria on Cover & The CPR
Thanks, Paul, for the kind words. On the postcard, under magnification, you can make out part of the letters L R C Co, so this beer car is the same as the Wiki photo, and from my link to the Anheuser-Busch Wiki article, the railroad line was established by the brewery under the name "St. Louis Refrigerator Car Company." Also, the beer car on my postcard is definitely leaning lower on the left side and higher on the right as it sits on the track. Perhaps it was partially unloaded? Who knows. They also would have loaded it with blocks of ice upon leaving St. Louis. I was just surprised to see this beer car so far from home base.
Linus
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