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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Cover with multiple country stamps

 

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amiad

31 Oct 2016
01:10:12pm
Its this cover ok? Its first time when i see something like this (please note im a beginer in philately)
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Ningpo
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31 Oct 2016
01:28:46pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Looks to me like a 'fantasy' cover. Only two stamps belong on the envelope and they are the Deutsches Bundespost 60pf and 10pf.

All the others have been attached later.

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amiad

31 Oct 2016
01:35:36pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Thanks !

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

31 Oct 2016
02:17:49pm

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re: Cover with multiple country stamps

I agree. The glue remnants are clearly visible.

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Bobstamp
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31 Oct 2016
07:57:02pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Plus, only the West German stamps are tied to the cover. And the point of doing this was…?

Bob


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sheepshanks
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31 Oct 2016
09:10:33pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

It's the new style all world album on a single cover.

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Ningpo
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31 Oct 2016
11:21:05pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Here's an example of a four stage cover that did go through the mail systems of three countries. From the USA to London (England), to Hong Kong and then back to the USA.

This was obviously a contrived 'boomerang' cover. Mr Dwortetzky apparently had contacts in England and Hong Kong who on receipt, removed the address label and applied another one (and the appropriate stamps) for the next leg of the journey. The significant part of this cover is the GB 1½d definitive, which indicates that the London to Hong Kong leg was carried under the 'Empire All-Up Scheme' concessionary rate.


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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

01 Nov 2016
01:08:06am
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

"10am, Hong Kong, 30 August 1939" except for the complications of crossing the Date Line that was almost the last day of general peacetime.
I wonder if anyone has a stamp or cover cancelled around 5 or 6 am September 1st, 1939 Europe or about 4pm Sept 1st in the Far East.
The exact hour and date will be different for different locales.

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Bobstamp
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01 Nov 2016
02:16:59am
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

This cover, from an American perspective, was posted Dec. 6, 1941 in Germany the day before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. That attack, of course, forced the U.S. finally to enter the war against the Axis:

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It was "interned" in New York throughout the war, then in 1948 was forwarded to Japan via in San Francisco, and was finally delivered to its destination in Kyoto, Japan.

Bob

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

01 Nov 2016
08:53:35am
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Bob, it's interesting that a cover mailed from Germany to Japan wound up in the USA. I also wonder if Frau Liesa was still at the Kyoto Hotel all that time! Or if she ever got her letter.

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Tom in Exton, PA

01 Nov 2016
09:00:14am
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

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I own this multiple use card, all within Texas but scarce and fun to own. Of course it's in the Ben Franklin collection.

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roy
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01 Nov 2016
09:15:50am
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

"I wonder if anyone has a stamp or cover cancelled around 5 or 6 am September 1st, 1939 Europe or about 4pm Sept 1st in the Far East."



Check out the top cover on this page of my Stamporama Exhibit "Very Cool Covers". Almost exactly what you asked for.

https://stamporama.com/exhibits/show.php?id=roy&last=18&acurrent=11&name=Roy+Lingen

Roy
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Bobstamp
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01 Nov 2016
01:01:47pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Tom said,

"Bob, it's interesting that a cover mailed from Germany to Japan wound up in the USA."



Roy can probably confirm this, but before the U.S. declared war on Germany and Japan, I believe that mail between those two countries would have been sent across the southern Atlantic mail route between Dakar in Senegal and Natal in Brazil, then north to the U.S., west to San Francisco, and then across the Pacific to Japan. New York would have been a natural processing point, and by the time the letter got there (mail probably slowed to a crawl after the Japanese attack), the U.S. would have been on a firm war footing, and the last thing anyone would have been concerned about would be sending a German letter to Japan.

Bob


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Tom in Exton, PA

01 Nov 2016
01:56:34pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

"Check out the top cover on this page of my Stamporama Exhibit "Very Cool Covers"."



Very cool exhibit Roy! I read the entire thing. Very hard to read each page and not think about which of your own covers would fit on that page. I do have a cover album I call "My Very Cool Stuff". That's the first thing I'll show to non-collectors.

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My own version of your Lingen cover!

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01 Nov 2016
06:37:10pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Bob - that's a fantastic cover - I'm wondering if "return to sender" means that the recipient was no longer there after the war? Or only in relation to service suspended - in which case it would be as mentioned, unlikely that anyone was in any rush to return this to Germany.

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Ningpo
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01 Nov 2016
07:25:13pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

It is most likely that mail marked 'return to sender' from an enemy country was, as Bob stated, deliberately retained.

The Japanese did exactly the same thing in Hong Kong and probably Singapore. All this sort of mail was found bagged up in sacks and dumped in Post Office cellars.

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Bobstamp
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02 Nov 2016
05:06:31pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

It would be interesting to know where and when my German cover was handstamped, "RETURN TO SENDER". In the hours and days immediately after the attack on Pearl Harbor, routines in international post offices must have been in chaos. I can see a postal clerk using that handstamp in error and then striking it out with a blue pencil. Or, later, someone else might have realized the error, struck out handstamp imprint, and consigned the cover to internment.

Bob

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Poodle_Mum
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02 Nov 2016
07:55:38pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Bob - you must be reading my mind - I was wondering the same thing.

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Stampme

03 Nov 2016
11:15:32am
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Regarding the Service Suspended handstamp: I'm wondering why the British even let this cover be forwarded to New York--if I'm not mistaken that is a British P.C 90 censorship label so at some point, the cover was held by the British who were at war with Japan and Germany.
The British probably intercepted this cover after December 7th since it was mailed from Germany on December 6--the cover may have been intercepted sometime in December after Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, making the cover, from a U.S. standpoint and the British viewpoint, an interned one rather than a return to sender in Germany.
The Service Suspended handstamp was possibly applied with no intention of the return to sender portion being followed. It can't be a British handstamp since they would intern such mail, not return it to Germany.
I'm still unsure why the British would forward a captured enemy cover to New York Registry Division -- perhaps this was a standard procedure at the time of its capture, again likely after we had also declared war against Germany on December 11 shortly following their declaration against the U.S.
The cover appears to have been handstamped there by U.S. clerks with the Service Suspended message, some months after Pearl Harbor. The handstamp was likely crossed out when the cover was released and forwarded to Japan in the postwar era.
I wonder what the Japanese characters and handstamp state.
Bruce
PS: Great cover!

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Bobstamp
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03 Nov 2016
08:44:47pm
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

I can't comment any further about my Germany-Japan cover with any authority, but I can quote Wikipedia!:

"On 8 December 1941, the government of the United Kingdom declared war on the Empire of Japan, following the Japanese attacks on Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong."



I doubt that the cover came anywhere close to any British territory or colony. As I said, I'm pretty sure that the airmail route would be southwest to Senegal, west to Dakar, and then north to the U.S. But I could be wrong.

I got the help of an APS translator for the Japanese characters on the cover: "The larger hand stamp (with border) indicates that the "affixed postage has been verified" by the "Tokyo Central Post Office". The smaller handstamp (2 Kanji characters) says "Air Mail". The handwritten characters in red ink say "Kyoto". The written note in pencil underneath 311369 reads "Kyoto Hotel". So, nothing dramatic. I have no idea whether the cover was actually received by the recipient.

Bob
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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

04 Nov 2016
09:48:18am
re: Cover with multiple country stamps

British colonies were attacked at the same time as the US; previously, they were not belligerent with Japan

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Author/Postings
amiad

31 Oct 2016
01:10:12pm

Its this cover ok? Its first time when i see something like this (please note im a beginer in philately)
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Ningpo

31 Oct 2016
01:28:46pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Looks to me like a 'fantasy' cover. Only two stamps belong on the envelope and they are the Deutsches Bundespost 60pf and 10pf.

All the others have been attached later.

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amiad

31 Oct 2016
01:35:36pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Thanks !

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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
31 Oct 2016
02:17:49pm

Approvals

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

I agree. The glue remnants are clearly visible.

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Bobstamp

31 Oct 2016
07:57:02pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Plus, only the West German stamps are tied to the cover. And the point of doing this was…?

Bob


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sheepshanks

31 Oct 2016
09:10:33pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

It's the new style all world album on a single cover.

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Ningpo

31 Oct 2016
11:21:05pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Here's an example of a four stage cover that did go through the mail systems of three countries. From the USA to London (England), to Hong Kong and then back to the USA.

This was obviously a contrived 'boomerang' cover. Mr Dwortetzky apparently had contacts in England and Hong Kong who on receipt, removed the address label and applied another one (and the appropriate stamps) for the next leg of the journey. The significant part of this cover is the GB 1½d definitive, which indicates that the London to Hong Kong leg was carried under the 'Empire All-Up Scheme' concessionary rate.


Image Not Found


Image Not Found

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 Nov 2016
01:08:06am

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

"10am, Hong Kong, 30 August 1939" except for the complications of crossing the Date Line that was almost the last day of general peacetime.
I wonder if anyone has a stamp or cover cancelled around 5 or 6 am September 1st, 1939 Europe or about 4pm Sept 1st in the Far East.
The exact hour and date will be different for different locales.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
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Bobstamp

01 Nov 2016
02:16:59am

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

This cover, from an American perspective, was posted Dec. 6, 1941 in Germany the day before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. That attack, of course, forced the U.S. finally to enter the war against the Axis:

Image Not Found
Image Not Found

It was "interned" in New York throughout the war, then in 1948 was forwarded to Japan via in San Francisco, and was finally delivered to its destination in Kyoto, Japan.

Bob

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
01 Nov 2016
08:53:35am

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Bob, it's interesting that a cover mailed from Germany to Japan wound up in the USA. I also wonder if Frau Liesa was still at the Kyoto Hotel all that time! Or if she ever got her letter.

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
01 Nov 2016
09:00:14am

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

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I own this multiple use card, all within Texas but scarce and fun to own. Of course it's in the Ben Franklin collection.

Image Not Found


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01 Nov 2016
09:15:50am

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

"I wonder if anyone has a stamp or cover cancelled around 5 or 6 am September 1st, 1939 Europe or about 4pm Sept 1st in the Far East."



Check out the top cover on this page of my Stamporama Exhibit "Very Cool Covers". Almost exactly what you asked for.

https://stamporama.com/exhibits/show.php?id=roy&last=18&acurrent=11&name=Roy+Lingen

Roy
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Bobstamp

01 Nov 2016
01:01:47pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Tom said,

"Bob, it's interesting that a cover mailed from Germany to Japan wound up in the USA."



Roy can probably confirm this, but before the U.S. declared war on Germany and Japan, I believe that mail between those two countries would have been sent across the southern Atlantic mail route between Dakar in Senegal and Natal in Brazil, then north to the U.S., west to San Francisco, and then across the Pacific to Japan. New York would have been a natural processing point, and by the time the letter got there (mail probably slowed to a crawl after the Japanese attack), the U.S. would have been on a firm war footing, and the last thing anyone would have been concerned about would be sending a German letter to Japan.

Bob


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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
01 Nov 2016
01:56:34pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

"Check out the top cover on this page of my Stamporama Exhibit "Very Cool Covers"."



Very cool exhibit Roy! I read the entire thing. Very hard to read each page and not think about which of your own covers would fit on that page. I do have a cover album I call "My Very Cool Stuff". That's the first thing I'll show to non-collectors.

Image Not Found

My own version of your Lingen cover!

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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
01 Nov 2016
06:37:10pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Bob - that's a fantastic cover - I'm wondering if "return to sender" means that the recipient was no longer there after the war? Or only in relation to service suspended - in which case it would be as mentioned, unlikely that anyone was in any rush to return this to Germany.

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Ningpo

01 Nov 2016
07:25:13pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

It is most likely that mail marked 'return to sender' from an enemy country was, as Bob stated, deliberately retained.

The Japanese did exactly the same thing in Hong Kong and probably Singapore. All this sort of mail was found bagged up in sacks and dumped in Post Office cellars.

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Bobstamp

02 Nov 2016
05:06:31pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

It would be interesting to know where and when my German cover was handstamped, "RETURN TO SENDER". In the hours and days immediately after the attack on Pearl Harbor, routines in international post offices must have been in chaos. I can see a postal clerk using that handstamp in error and then striking it out with a blue pencil. Or, later, someone else might have realized the error, struck out handstamp imprint, and consigned the cover to internment.

Bob

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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
02 Nov 2016
07:55:38pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Bob - you must be reading my mind - I was wondering the same thing.

Like
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"Let's find a cure for Still's Disease, Breast Cancer and Canine Addison's Disease. We CAN find a cure and save lives!!"

drkellyfleming.ca
Stampme

03 Nov 2016
11:15:32am

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

Regarding the Service Suspended handstamp: I'm wondering why the British even let this cover be forwarded to New York--if I'm not mistaken that is a British P.C 90 censorship label so at some point, the cover was held by the British who were at war with Japan and Germany.
The British probably intercepted this cover after December 7th since it was mailed from Germany on December 6--the cover may have been intercepted sometime in December after Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, making the cover, from a U.S. standpoint and the British viewpoint, an interned one rather than a return to sender in Germany.
The Service Suspended handstamp was possibly applied with no intention of the return to sender portion being followed. It can't be a British handstamp since they would intern such mail, not return it to Germany.
I'm still unsure why the British would forward a captured enemy cover to New York Registry Division -- perhaps this was a standard procedure at the time of its capture, again likely after we had also declared war against Germany on December 11 shortly following their declaration against the U.S.
The cover appears to have been handstamped there by U.S. clerks with the Service Suspended message, some months after Pearl Harbor. The handstamp was likely crossed out when the cover was released and forwarded to Japan in the postwar era.
I wonder what the Japanese characters and handstamp state.
Bruce
PS: Great cover!

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Bobstamp

03 Nov 2016
08:44:47pm

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

I can't comment any further about my Germany-Japan cover with any authority, but I can quote Wikipedia!:

"On 8 December 1941, the government of the United Kingdom declared war on the Empire of Japan, following the Japanese attacks on Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong."



I doubt that the cover came anywhere close to any British territory or colony. As I said, I'm pretty sure that the airmail route would be southwest to Senegal, west to Dakar, and then north to the U.S. But I could be wrong.

I got the help of an APS translator for the Japanese characters on the cover: "The larger hand stamp (with border) indicates that the "affixed postage has been verified" by the "Tokyo Central Post Office". The smaller handstamp (2 Kanji characters) says "Air Mail". The handwritten characters in red ink say "Kyoto". The written note in pencil underneath 311369 reads "Kyoto Hotel". So, nothing dramatic. I have no idea whether the cover was actually received by the recipient.

Bob
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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
04 Nov 2016
09:48:18am

re: Cover with multiple country stamps

British colonies were attacked at the same time as the US; previously, they were not belligerent with Japan

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