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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

 

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whitebuffalo
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16 Sep 2016
10:19:00am
I have in the neighborhood of about 50 covers that were part of an exchange(1970's-'80's) between two collectors, one in the U.S. and the other in Germany.(DDR) The exchange took place by adhering the stamps to an envelope and sending them through the mail systems. All covers were neatly hand cancelled and most are tied to the cover. However, there are some blocks/sets that were cancelled in their centers and not tied to the cover. Not to confuse the issue, but about 2/3's of them contained notes, mostly along the lines of "how are you" or "hope all is well". How would the stamps on these covers be defined, CTO'd, Favor Cancelled or Postally Used?


WB
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Ningpo
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16 Sep 2016
10:53:41am
re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

I agree.

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

16 Sep 2016
11:26:41am
re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

Image Not Found
Philatelic covers have been around as long as stamps themselves. Here's a cover from a dealer in 1906 including an older stamp.

Image Not Found
And a 12 year old Columbian 4 cent stamp used by Scott in 1904 along with the current 1 cent Franklin.

The survival rate is much greater than normal commercial or personal mail because they were delivered right into the hands of collectors who were apt to save them!



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whitebuffalo
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16 Sep 2016
12:38:18pm
re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

Just for the record, I've checked all the stamps on these covers and none of them had enhanced values for being on cover. So, this is all purely academic.

For the sake of discussion, I would submit, that any description with the word "but" in it, is non-definitive.

BenFranklin shows a fine pair of examples and the addressees would tend to lend support to the concept of being philatelic in nature. But, the fact is, these were just as likely used as genuine correspondence between individuals and not solely for the purpose of creating a philatelic artifact.

In the case of my 50 or so covers, how would anyone know they were philatelic in nature, without having first hand knowledge of their history? Even if the stamps were removed, the blocks with SON cancels would have the appearance of being CTO'd and many of the singles were tied to the cover in a lower or upper corner, again, giving them the appearance of a CTO'd stamp. Too, since many of them contained notes or short letters, isn't it just as acceptable to think of those as postally used, without the exception of being "but philatelic".

Many will find these points, moot at best. My interest is in the idea that, by nature, philatelist's and even weekend collectors, tend to view stamps(and covers)as a black or white issue. It is either this or it's not. This subject, however, would seem to have somewhat of a gray area.


WB

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

16 Sep 2016
10:12:10pm
re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

"BenFranklin shows a fine pair of examples and the addressees would tend to lend support to the concept of being philatelic in nature. But, the fact is, these were just as likely used as genuine correspondence between individuals and not solely for the purpose of creating a philatelic artifact."



Correct. Both of my covers did their postal duty and weren't favor covers handed back over the counter to a collector. Still, the covers used obsolete stamps to a stamp collector. Not unlike the mail I get today containing eBay purchases using 20=70 year old stamps. Let's just call these non-period correct.

This can be important in different situations. For instance in my 1903 Franklin collection, I eagerly seek out genuine usage of the early private perforations. The most common found used is the Shermack Type 3 perforation, used in stamp vending and commercial affixing machines. I most like to find these as singles, used on an advertising postcard in the 1907-09 time period. That's proper period usage.

Not too long ago a dealer offered me a cover that used three different private perforation brand pairs on the same envelope. The return address was a stamp dealer and it was created in the 1920s. Dealer wanted some $200+ for this improper usage. I declined. It had no historic significance so I didn't need it in my collection.

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whitebuffalo
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16 Sep 2016
10:32:04pm
re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

Sure, I can see where research would be a key element, especially on higher value material. In the case of the covers I mentioned, that wouldn't come in to play. The only person they would have much value to, is me and that is more for sentimental reasons then anything else.

Because I'm not an avid cover collector, I undoubtedly don't have the trained eye that others would. I was just going through some material that I hadn't taken a hard look at and wondered, if I didn't know the history, would there be a definitive way of telling that these covers, were what they are.

I think you've helped me to start finding a way to do that.

Thanks,


WB

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

17 Sep 2016
03:50:46pm

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re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

i'd say we have hit the nail squarely.... material that was properly used in period is the most desirable, better still with the highest value stamp franking it.

Of course, those who value it first have to learn that it's desirable, and the reasons for it.

that doesn't diminish the appeal of a FDC or obvious philatelic use of a SS, but....

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malcolm197

26 Sep 2016
12:26:35pm
re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

CTO s normally all have the same or a group of standard postmarks ( which in many cases are easily identified), while cancelled by favour normally have the normal local postmark applied.

Not suggesting you should remove any stamps from cover, but should you do so there will be no way of telling a by favour cancellation from normal commercial use - unless the type of postmark is "wrong" for the period of the stamp. I certainly wouldn't vandalise a perfectly good cover or postmark on piece just to make the stamp look commercially used. You have to keep a sense of proportion in these matters.

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whitebuffalo

16 Sep 2016
10:19:00am

I have in the neighborhood of about 50 covers that were part of an exchange(1970's-'80's) between two collectors, one in the U.S. and the other in Germany.(DDR) The exchange took place by adhering the stamps to an envelope and sending them through the mail systems. All covers were neatly hand cancelled and most are tied to the cover. However, there are some blocks/sets that were cancelled in their centers and not tied to the cover. Not to confuse the issue, but about 2/3's of them contained notes, mostly along the lines of "how are you" or "hope all is well". How would the stamps on these covers be defined, CTO'd, Favor Cancelled or Postally Used?


WB

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Ningpo

16 Sep 2016
10:53:41am

re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

I agree.

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this post
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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
16 Sep 2016
11:26:41am

re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

Image Not Found
Philatelic covers have been around as long as stamps themselves. Here's a cover from a dealer in 1906 including an older stamp.

Image Not Found
And a 12 year old Columbian 4 cent stamp used by Scott in 1904 along with the current 1 cent Franklin.

The survival rate is much greater than normal commercial or personal mail because they were delivered right into the hands of collectors who were apt to save them!



Like
Login to Like
this post

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
Members Picture
whitebuffalo

16 Sep 2016
12:38:18pm

re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

Just for the record, I've checked all the stamps on these covers and none of them had enhanced values for being on cover. So, this is all purely academic.

For the sake of discussion, I would submit, that any description with the word "but" in it, is non-definitive.

BenFranklin shows a fine pair of examples and the addressees would tend to lend support to the concept of being philatelic in nature. But, the fact is, these were just as likely used as genuine correspondence between individuals and not solely for the purpose of creating a philatelic artifact.

In the case of my 50 or so covers, how would anyone know they were philatelic in nature, without having first hand knowledge of their history? Even if the stamps were removed, the blocks with SON cancels would have the appearance of being CTO'd and many of the singles were tied to the cover in a lower or upper corner, again, giving them the appearance of a CTO'd stamp. Too, since many of them contained notes or short letters, isn't it just as acceptable to think of those as postally used, without the exception of being "but philatelic".

Many will find these points, moot at best. My interest is in the idea that, by nature, philatelist's and even weekend collectors, tend to view stamps(and covers)as a black or white issue. It is either this or it's not. This subject, however, would seem to have somewhat of a gray area.


WB

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
16 Sep 2016
10:12:10pm

re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

"BenFranklin shows a fine pair of examples and the addressees would tend to lend support to the concept of being philatelic in nature. But, the fact is, these were just as likely used as genuine correspondence between individuals and not solely for the purpose of creating a philatelic artifact."



Correct. Both of my covers did their postal duty and weren't favor covers handed back over the counter to a collector. Still, the covers used obsolete stamps to a stamp collector. Not unlike the mail I get today containing eBay purchases using 20=70 year old stamps. Let's just call these non-period correct.

This can be important in different situations. For instance in my 1903 Franklin collection, I eagerly seek out genuine usage of the early private perforations. The most common found used is the Shermack Type 3 perforation, used in stamp vending and commercial affixing machines. I most like to find these as singles, used on an advertising postcard in the 1907-09 time period. That's proper period usage.

Not too long ago a dealer offered me a cover that used three different private perforation brand pairs on the same envelope. The return address was a stamp dealer and it was created in the 1920s. Dealer wanted some $200+ for this improper usage. I declined. It had no historic significance so I didn't need it in my collection.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
Members Picture
whitebuffalo

16 Sep 2016
10:32:04pm

re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

Sure, I can see where research would be a key element, especially on higher value material. In the case of the covers I mentioned, that wouldn't come in to play. The only person they would have much value to, is me and that is more for sentimental reasons then anything else.

Because I'm not an avid cover collector, I undoubtedly don't have the trained eye that others would. I was just going through some material that I hadn't taken a hard look at and wondered, if I didn't know the history, would there be a definitive way of telling that these covers, were what they are.

I think you've helped me to start finding a way to do that.

Thanks,


WB

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
17 Sep 2016
03:50:46pm

Auctions

re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

i'd say we have hit the nail squarely.... material that was properly used in period is the most desirable, better still with the highest value stamp franking it.

Of course, those who value it first have to learn that it's desirable, and the reasons for it.

that doesn't diminish the appeal of a FDC or obvious philatelic use of a SS, but....

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
malcolm197

26 Sep 2016
12:26:35pm

re: CTO vs Favor Cancel vs...

CTO s normally all have the same or a group of standard postmarks ( which in many cases are easily identified), while cancelled by favour normally have the normal local postmark applied.

Not suggesting you should remove any stamps from cover, but should you do so there will be no way of telling a by favour cancellation from normal commercial use - unless the type of postmark is "wrong" for the period of the stamp. I certainly wouldn't vandalise a perfectly good cover or postmark on piece just to make the stamp look commercially used. You have to keep a sense of proportion in these matters.

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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