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United States/Stamps : Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

 

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lemaven
Members Picture


21 Aug 2016
11:09:54pm
I have decided after many agonizing hours trying to figure out colors, papers, and grills that U.S. stamps won't be part of my collecting world.

But I am very nervous about listing these in Auction for the same reason - I just don't have a clue how to figure out how to describe what catalog # many of these stamps are. I don't want to sell something for $1 that could pay my daughter's tuition for a year or sell something for $10 that is returned (at my expense in dollars and goodwill) because I inadvertently mis-described something that was only worth $2.

Condition, centring, and perfs are easy enough but it's all those other things that are maddening. So I thought that I could post a few things to spark some discussion and tap into the expertise here that other neophytes struggling with this issue may have.

First up are Grills. After looking through a handful of stamps from the 1867-1870 era I finally found a couple but I am struggling with the famous A25. Here is a scan of the back with my "stamp ruler" for reference.

Image Not Found

The right side margin looks fairly well defined, but I revised my measurement to the left side a few times as it is less well-defined. I'm not sure what "points" are but I assumed each little box counted as one. Therefore, my measurements are as shown above. (I drew the light blue box superimposed over the grill as I understood it then did the same over the ruler.

Based on this it looks like I can narrow it down to #85 or #88 - and here we have the problem: do I have a $27 stamp to offer or a $1,000 one? If you were a buyer (Moderator: Not an offer to sell here) would you be excited or yawning?

Thanks for any tips on figuring out the grills.

Dave.

{Next topic: colors}.





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seanpashby
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22 Aug 2016
12:25:29am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Grills can be, are very frustrating. For me, they never seem to fall into one of the accepted categories, probably because one side always seems to have been impressed lighter than the rest. My grandfather showed me, and I'm not suggesting it, how to lightly use pencil lead to completely show the grill that is there. It sure made it easier to count. Oh....don't forget that some are point up and some are point down.

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michael78651

22 Aug 2016
03:23:25am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

"I have decided after many agonizing hours trying to figure out colors, papers, and grills that U.S. stamps won't be part of my collecting world."



Come on, Dave, you haven't even tried the Washington-Franklins yet!

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

22 Aug 2016
04:15:50am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

And watermarks on W-F's (especially yellow ones) make grilles look like child's play. Hint - when in doubt it is always best to id as the cheaper variety.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

22 Aug 2016
04:39:32am

Auctions
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

there is always the option to list it as A25 with grill....

for me, I find that spending immense time on a stamp or stamps that I do not intend to master is a waste of my time, and I choose one of three things: put away for later (never) review; describe as above; or reject my initial decision to reject and become knowledgeable on the darn things, likely keeping them in the process.

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dani20
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22 Aug 2016
07:06:58am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

It's likely an "F" grill, not an "E" grill. When listing, perhaps just use the word 'grill' without trying to pin down the ID. If you'd prefer, add the possible cat.#'s that it might be without claiming it to be a particular one. Sell the item 'as is'. I think you'll find that if you list something with too low an opening bid, those more knowledgeable will bid it up to where it ought to be. On eBay, there are sellers who regularly list a starting price of $1- no item I have looked at and bid upon ever went for that low bid. Could it-sure-but watch how quickly those more knowledgeable become eager to see what you have listed.

If you're really sure you may have a gem, then the other suggestions of tapping into the expertise here on this site would come into play, as well as the suggestions to send it out for a certificate of authenticity.

It all sounds very interesting-I'll be looking to see what you post for sale.

Dan C


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whitebuffalo
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22 Aug 2016
07:46:20am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

You might try loading the scan into an editing program and using some of the effects to bring it out. Negative imaging, pencil sketch, etc..., there may be others, depending on the program you use. Some of these effects can even help with SOME watermarks.


WB

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

22 Aug 2016
08:04:25am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Wow! I was avoiding that era in US stamps, along with the Washington/Franklins for right now due to all the varieties. I just took a quick look at Scott Specialized and saw the number of grills that were used on the same stamp.

It hadn't been mentioned in this thread, but the purpose of the grill was to break the paper fiber to absorb cancellation ink. That was to make it harder to "clean" stamps for reuse, which probably was a big issue back then. Scott's mentions that "some authorities believe that more than one size of grill probably existed on one of the grill rolls." So the "rare" varieties worth thousands of dollars probably are from an imperfection on the roller that happened once on every sheet of 400??

"when in doubt it is always best to id as the cheaper variety. "



per Webpaper, I think this is sound advice. Especially where the vast differences in value between the common and the rare. For my own collection, I think I'll settle for face differences or at the most, or have one with grill and one without grill.

But then again, stamp collectors cannot resist a treasure hunt! Happy

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dani20
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22 Aug 2016
10:44:31am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Ben Franklin, check out the U.S.Scott #'s 134-144 for high end grills. Insane cat.vals.
I happen to have dups though if interested. I look to trading rather than selling whenever possible.
Best,
Dan C

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GeoStamper
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Steve

22 Aug 2016
11:03:27am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Carol wrote:

"Hint - when in doubt it is always best to id as the cheaper variety."



That's great advice. I follow the "NFL rule" on these kinds of things: Unless there is incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, the ruling on the field stands. In the case of id'ing stamps, the "ruling on the field" is that what I have in my hands is the most common variety.

For those among us who are more into math than football, you can treat it as a basic application of Bayes Theorem!

-Steve


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tomiseksj
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22 Aug 2016
12:37:15pm
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

I've had fairly good results using watermark fluid on stamps with grills that have weak points.

Image Not Found

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HungaryForStamps
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22 Aug 2016
12:42:41pm
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

As suggested earlier, if you want an accurate opinion as to the grill, apply graphite lightly to highlight the grill and post a better scan. If it were expertized, the graphite would probably be applied anyway.

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michael78651

22 Aug 2016
02:38:03pm
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Hobby Lobby offers a tube of graphite (without teflon) that is used on the Cub Scouts Pine Wood Derby cars, and other hobby uses. Would that be a proper product to use for this?

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vinman
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22 Aug 2016
04:34:01pm
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

I am not sure about the Hobby Lobby item. The way I was taught by Bill Weiss was to take a #2 pencil and on a "separate" piece of paper then scribble back and forth until you have an area of graphite. Then rub your finger on the graphite and then gently rub it on the "back" of your stamp in the grill area. This should highlight the grill for you. I don't bother to try to remove the graphite. I must also state I have never done this on a mint stamp.

Vince

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

23 Aug 2016
12:14:24am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Lemaven, Just because many of the early U.S. stamps exist with grills or slight changes in design due to worn plates it should not keep you from collecting these issues. 19th century U.S stamps are my and many others favorite area to collect in the world. I would suggest you collect the different types and not worry about the grills or stamps whose design has been slightly changed by the wearing of plates. For example don't worry about getting all of the 1851 1 cent stamps but get one nice representative copy of the basic stamp. Same goes for the 3 and 10 cent values of that set and the 1857 through 1862 sets.
You can simply forget all of the grills up to the 1869 Pictorals which I consider a must have. It is of course your collection so you have to make the call but I would not even consider not collecting the 19th century U.S. When it comes to selling the grills you have to make the best scans you can of the front and back and leave it up to the buyer as to what they think it is. Most of the expensive ones are extremely rare with only a couple to be known which makes the chance of you having one next to impossible.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
lemaven
Members Picture


23 Aug 2016
12:40:43pm
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Thanks Mitch, and welcome back - missed you're contributions and hope your health is returning to par.

You have given me pause to reconsider not collecting U.S. as I probably could have a decent start on filling a lot of pages with nice representatives of individual stamps without worrying about minute variations. Included with THE HOARD was a brand new Harris album with pages to the late 90s with only a few dozen MNH mounted, so maybe better to start filling it than to try and get rid of it (which would have to be done locally as I'm sure no one would pay the shipping charges).

I was planning a mass sell-off of all U.S. starting next week but will take some time this weekend to revisit that idea.

Again, many thanks and best wishes.

Dave.

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Charlie2009
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01 Sep 2016
01:25:21am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Thought that some of you US collectors might like this,don't collect US myself:

Image Not Found

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dani20
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01 Sep 2016
07:53:15am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Do you have that available for trade/sale?
Dan C

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TuskenRaider
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01 Sep 2016
08:51:32pm
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Hi Everyone;

Hey Charlie2009, that page showing plate differences is totally awesome. Where did you ever get something like that? Where can someone buy some?

Who published that? I'm sure they probably published others, for other 19th century stamp issues.

Just wonderin'....
TuskenRaider

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Ningpo
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01 Sep 2016
09:31:11pm
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Try here folks:


www.uspcs.org

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TuskenRaider
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02 Sep 2016
12:11:43am
re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Hi Everyone;

Thank you Ningpo & Charlie2009, what a fantastic site!!!!!

Anyone with more than just a face different interest in US classics should bookmark this one!

Time to go catch Vader & Moff Tarkin....

Just thinkin'.... Thinking
TuskenRaider

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www.webstore.com/store,pgr,37572,user_id,37572,ac,shop
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
lemaven

21 Aug 2016
11:09:54pm

I have decided after many agonizing hours trying to figure out colors, papers, and grills that U.S. stamps won't be part of my collecting world.

But I am very nervous about listing these in Auction for the same reason - I just don't have a clue how to figure out how to describe what catalog # many of these stamps are. I don't want to sell something for $1 that could pay my daughter's tuition for a year or sell something for $10 that is returned (at my expense in dollars and goodwill) because I inadvertently mis-described something that was only worth $2.

Condition, centring, and perfs are easy enough but it's all those other things that are maddening. So I thought that I could post a few things to spark some discussion and tap into the expertise here that other neophytes struggling with this issue may have.

First up are Grills. After looking through a handful of stamps from the 1867-1870 era I finally found a couple but I am struggling with the famous A25. Here is a scan of the back with my "stamp ruler" for reference.

Image Not Found

The right side margin looks fairly well defined, but I revised my measurement to the left side a few times as it is less well-defined. I'm not sure what "points" are but I assumed each little box counted as one. Therefore, my measurements are as shown above. (I drew the light blue box superimposed over the grill as I understood it then did the same over the ruler.

Based on this it looks like I can narrow it down to #85 or #88 - and here we have the problem: do I have a $27 stamp to offer or a $1,000 one? If you were a buyer (Moderator: Not an offer to sell here) would you be excited or yawning?

Thanks for any tips on figuring out the grills.

Dave.

{Next topic: colors}.





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seanpashby

22 Aug 2016
12:25:29am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Grills can be, are very frustrating. For me, they never seem to fall into one of the accepted categories, probably because one side always seems to have been impressed lighter than the rest. My grandfather showed me, and I'm not suggesting it, how to lightly use pencil lead to completely show the grill that is there. It sure made it easier to count. Oh....don't forget that some are point up and some are point down.

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651

22 Aug 2016
03:23:25am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

"I have decided after many agonizing hours trying to figure out colors, papers, and grills that U.S. stamps won't be part of my collecting world."



Come on, Dave, you haven't even tried the Washington-Franklins yet!

Like
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this post
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

22 Aug 2016
04:15:50am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

And watermarks on W-F's (especially yellow ones) make grilles look like child's play. Hint - when in doubt it is always best to id as the cheaper variety.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
22 Aug 2016
04:39:32am

Auctions

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

there is always the option to list it as A25 with grill....

for me, I find that spending immense time on a stamp or stamps that I do not intend to master is a waste of my time, and I choose one of three things: put away for later (never) review; describe as above; or reject my initial decision to reject and become knowledgeable on the darn things, likely keeping them in the process.

Like 
1 Member
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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
Members Picture
dani20

22 Aug 2016
07:06:58am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

It's likely an "F" grill, not an "E" grill. When listing, perhaps just use the word 'grill' without trying to pin down the ID. If you'd prefer, add the possible cat.#'s that it might be without claiming it to be a particular one. Sell the item 'as is'. I think you'll find that if you list something with too low an opening bid, those more knowledgeable will bid it up to where it ought to be. On eBay, there are sellers who regularly list a starting price of $1- no item I have looked at and bid upon ever went for that low bid. Could it-sure-but watch how quickly those more knowledgeable become eager to see what you have listed.

If you're really sure you may have a gem, then the other suggestions of tapping into the expertise here on this site would come into play, as well as the suggestions to send it out for a certificate of authenticity.

It all sounds very interesting-I'll be looking to see what you post for sale.

Dan C


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Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
whitebuffalo

22 Aug 2016
07:46:20am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

You might try loading the scan into an editing program and using some of the effects to bring it out. Negative imaging, pencil sketch, etc..., there may be others, depending on the program you use. Some of these effects can even help with SOME watermarks.


WB

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this post
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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
22 Aug 2016
08:04:25am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Wow! I was avoiding that era in US stamps, along with the Washington/Franklins for right now due to all the varieties. I just took a quick look at Scott Specialized and saw the number of grills that were used on the same stamp.

It hadn't been mentioned in this thread, but the purpose of the grill was to break the paper fiber to absorb cancellation ink. That was to make it harder to "clean" stamps for reuse, which probably was a big issue back then. Scott's mentions that "some authorities believe that more than one size of grill probably existed on one of the grill rolls." So the "rare" varieties worth thousands of dollars probably are from an imperfection on the roller that happened once on every sheet of 400??

"when in doubt it is always best to id as the cheaper variety. "



per Webpaper, I think this is sound advice. Especially where the vast differences in value between the common and the rare. For my own collection, I think I'll settle for face differences or at the most, or have one with grill and one without grill.

But then again, stamp collectors cannot resist a treasure hunt! Happy

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Login to Like
this post

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
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dani20

22 Aug 2016
10:44:31am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Ben Franklin, check out the U.S.Scott #'s 134-144 for high end grills. Insane cat.vals.
I happen to have dups though if interested. I look to trading rather than selling whenever possible.
Best,
Dan C

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GeoStamper

Steve
22 Aug 2016
11:03:27am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Carol wrote:

"Hint - when in doubt it is always best to id as the cheaper variety."



That's great advice. I follow the "NFL rule" on these kinds of things: Unless there is incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, the ruling on the field stands. In the case of id'ing stamps, the "ruling on the field" is that what I have in my hands is the most common variety.

For those among us who are more into math than football, you can treat it as a basic application of Bayes Theorem!

-Steve


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likes this post.
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"What are you waiting for? Those stamps aren't going to collect themselves."
Members Picture
tomiseksj

22 Aug 2016
12:37:15pm

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

I've had fairly good results using watermark fluid on stamps with grills that have weak points.

Image Not Found

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HungaryForStamps

22 Aug 2016
12:42:41pm

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

As suggested earlier, if you want an accurate opinion as to the grill, apply graphite lightly to highlight the grill and post a better scan. If it were expertized, the graphite would probably be applied anyway.

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651

22 Aug 2016
02:38:03pm

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Hobby Lobby offers a tube of graphite (without teflon) that is used on the Cub Scouts Pine Wood Derby cars, and other hobby uses. Would that be a proper product to use for this?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
vinman

22 Aug 2016
04:34:01pm

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

I am not sure about the Hobby Lobby item. The way I was taught by Bill Weiss was to take a #2 pencil and on a "separate" piece of paper then scribble back and forth until you have an area of graphite. Then rub your finger on the graphite and then gently rub it on the "back" of your stamp in the grill area. This should highlight the grill for you. I don't bother to try to remove the graphite. I must also state I have never done this on a mint stamp.

Vince

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this post

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
23 Aug 2016
12:14:24am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Lemaven, Just because many of the early U.S. stamps exist with grills or slight changes in design due to worn plates it should not keep you from collecting these issues. 19th century U.S stamps are my and many others favorite area to collect in the world. I would suggest you collect the different types and not worry about the grills or stamps whose design has been slightly changed by the wearing of plates. For example don't worry about getting all of the 1851 1 cent stamps but get one nice representative copy of the basic stamp. Same goes for the 3 and 10 cent values of that set and the 1857 through 1862 sets.
You can simply forget all of the grills up to the 1869 Pictorals which I consider a must have. It is of course your collection so you have to make the call but I would not even consider not collecting the 19th century U.S. When it comes to selling the grills you have to make the best scans you can of the front and back and leave it up to the buyer as to what they think it is. Most of the expensive ones are extremely rare with only a couple to be known which makes the chance of you having one next to impossible.

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mitch.seymourfamily. ...
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lemaven

23 Aug 2016
12:40:43pm

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Thanks Mitch, and welcome back - missed you're contributions and hope your health is returning to par.

You have given me pause to reconsider not collecting U.S. as I probably could have a decent start on filling a lot of pages with nice representatives of individual stamps without worrying about minute variations. Included with THE HOARD was a brand new Harris album with pages to the late 90s with only a few dozen MNH mounted, so maybe better to start filling it than to try and get rid of it (which would have to be done locally as I'm sure no one would pay the shipping charges).

I was planning a mass sell-off of all U.S. starting next week but will take some time this weekend to revisit that idea.

Again, many thanks and best wishes.

Dave.

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this post
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Charlie2009

01 Sep 2016
01:25:21am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Thought that some of you US collectors might like this,don't collect US myself:

Image Not Found

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2 Members
like this post.
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www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
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dani20

01 Sep 2016
07:53:15am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Do you have that available for trade/sale?
Dan C

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TuskenRaider

01 Sep 2016
08:51:32pm

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Hi Everyone;

Hey Charlie2009, that page showing plate differences is totally awesome. Where did you ever get something like that? Where can someone buy some?

Who published that? I'm sure they probably published others, for other 19th century stamp issues.

Just wonderin'....
TuskenRaider

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/sto ...
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Ningpo

01 Sep 2016
09:31:11pm

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Try here folks:


www.uspcs.org

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TuskenRaider

02 Sep 2016
12:11:43am

re: Properly Describing or Approximating Older Stamps - Part 1 Grills

Hi Everyone;

Thank you Ningpo & Charlie2009, what a fantastic site!!!!!

Anyone with more than just a face different interest in US classics should bookmark this one!

Time to go catch Vader & Moff Tarkin....

Just thinkin'.... Thinking
TuskenRaider

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/sto ...
        

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