Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Would you say the Victoria is Brown or Lilac? To remain unbiased, please cast your vote before looking up the CVs. When a few responses have come in I'll give my opinion and tell you which one garners the higher CV.
Thanks, Dave.
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01:10:20am
It appears that the middle stamp more closely matches the right hand one.
But then, I am half blind, so who knows ?
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I agree with cdj1122. The middle stamp is closer to the one on the right but it still doesn't look like the same color to me. It might just be a little dirty or something but it just looks "a little off".
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Dave,
The Victorian stamp is the 50c on 48c dull purple, with Chinese surcharge characters. I don't have the Scott number but this is Gibbons SG49. They catalogue this at £5.50
Here is a copy which shows the two Chinese characters slightly clearer on the left hand value panel:
.
These additional characters vary considerably in ink intensity and quality, as they were all applied by hand.
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Just found the Scott number: #62. Scott describes this as lilac ???.
Here's another image of a fresh looking mint copy. The surcharge has been applied on the right hand side, in error. Different sized 'chops' were used for the Chinese characters on this value and also on the 20c on 30c.
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Here is a closeup of my stamp. I don't see the Chinese character overprint (which I think was intended to go over the first two characters turning 48 to 50?) unless it is misplaced farther from the top, smudged, and blended in with the smudgy cancellation. Also, the two characters in the imprint are very close together and I'm not seeing that
That's what lead me to think it might be Scott #54 (Lilac $325 - hopeful thinking?) rather than #53 (Brown $45) and not #62 (Purple $6.25 - more hopeful thinking?)
Funny thing about colors is to my naked (no offence...) eye it wasn't clearly a lilac/violet shade but seemed more obvious once scanned and especially (in my second attempt when placed next to some reference points).
Examining the back as is, and with watermark fluid, the 50 Cents surcharge and paper watermarks are super-clear and the cancellation is much better defined, but still can't see evidence of the Chinese characters.
Is hopeful thinking now migrating to wishful thinking? Or was the hammer used for the additional imprint just very lightly applied?
Thanks Philatelic CSI'ers!
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I agree with Ningpo that this is a Scott #62. The hand stamped Chinese surcharges exist in several varieties, and I can clearly see the top character in your stamp. See my pic below, circled in yellow. Also be advised that the stamp ink on these issues will just wash away in water, causing the surcharge and postmark to be all smeared up. The "50 cents" overprint uses a more permanent ink. In order for anyone to think this is a Scott #54, the entire left character panel would have to be free and clear like in Ningpo's mint stamp example. Even then, people have been known to try and clean away the surcharge to make a #62 look like a #54. With a pulled perf or two and a smeary cancel, I would say your stamp is worth about a dollar or so in my opinion. Hong Kong collectors like to read the cancel and date on used stamps. Thanks for posting this, Dave.
Linus
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This particular overprinted stamp is probably the most mis-identified of all Victorian Hong Kong issues.
Two factors cause this, firstly the overprint itself. Secondly, where a cancellation is in close proximity.
As I mentioned, the 'chop' varied in size. The characters also varied in shape. To help explain, here's a little background to these overprints:
These were produced following a 'request' by the Hong Kong Governor who felt that it was not sufficient to just apply an English overprint without any thought for the Chinese population.
It was considered that as the Chinese population did not properly understand English, they would be 'jibbed' at buying a stamp that stated in Chinese characters '48 cents' but were being charged 50 cents for. Even worse; having to pay $1 for a 96 cents stamp.
This was at odds with the Post Master General view that this had been the normal practice since 1885, and no inconvenience had resulted from this practice in the past. He was overruled.
Because of time and cost constraints, De La Rue were not used for this process.
Consequently, instructions were issued for local Chinese 'chops' be prepared. These were carved out of wood to overprint all stocks of the revalued 1891 issue. Three known types were used (for the 50 cent) and applied by hand by lowly paid Chinese workers on complete sheets.
Because of the variations between types, the amount of ink used, the varying pressure applied and the imprecise placement of these chops, the resulting overprints can be difficult to spot.
I myself have a mint copy of a 20 cent on 30 cent (from the same series) which looks un-overprinted. Only a 1200 dpi scan reveals that the overprint is actually there; but incredibly faint.
These variations, in conjunction with a cancellation applied in close proximity, makes identification even harder particularly as the ink used for the overprint seems remarkably similar to ink pad ink.
Incidentally, the reason for copies of these turning up without the Chinese characters, is that some had already been released to the public before the delays caused by the disagreement between the Colonial Governor's Office and the PMG. Hence the high catalogue value; particularly a used copy.
The following image is Dave's copy run through Retroreveal. Although I maintain there is an overprint there (the second character may well have been covered by the postmark), you may still disagree:
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I've just found a scanned page of my collection from which I've taken these two from. I think this illustrates the rather variable nature of these overprints:
...and here's another (which I posted elsewhere), which is yet another variation, where the uppermost character is just a blob:
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Nice detailed explanation, Ningpo. I even learned a thing or two.
The other problem is that catalogs describe the color of the mint stamp, and most people are looking at a used stamp that has been soaked in water causing the color to change.
Just compare the colors of the mint stamp scan with the used stamp scan. Big difference in color and clarity of the stamp details. Scott # 61, the gray-green stamp from this same series, changes the most of any HK stamp I know of when put in water.
Linus
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Spot on regarding the 20 cent on 30 cent Linus.
This raises another point. How to distinguish grey-green from yellowish-green? This is the most difficult colour variation of Hong Kong QV issues. The ink used for the un-overprinted adhesive (the 30 cent) is very fugitive. Even in its mint state, the colour varies depending on the colour of the gum. The more yellow the gum, the more the stamp appears yellowish-green.
And that ties in nicely with examples of that stamp, although these are mint copies. These are the un-overprinted versions (or are they?):
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Thanks Linus and Ningpo for what has turned into a very enlightening discussion of both overprints and color variations, especially pertaining to this stamp but with general valuable application.
I wanted to keep pushing the envelope on the discussion for exactly that reason: to get significant detailed thought and analysis rather than just "in my opinion" or "I want to be told I'm rich" feedback. Your expertise and efforts went well beyond expectations.
I can now say that my thought early on was leaning toward classification as #62. The smudge above the cancellation (circled in yellow by Linus) struck me as being too separated from the circular cancel to be a migratory artifact and on closer inspection changing the scan's saturation/contrast/etc settings (a poor man's version of Ningpo's CSI-worthy Retroreveal) aspects of definite linearity in line with the symbol were more readily visible. The ease of the overprint's "smudgosity" as per the other posted example was the final nail in that particular coffin.
To Linus's point on value, I suspect like many of us here if it becomes a matter of worrying whether you have something worth $2 or $20 or $200 then I will consider I've got a problem. I'm ok with having some interesting stamps with a cool story - and regardless of anything else, this one was from almost 125 years ago and has a neat historical back-story.
So thanks for the participation lads, very much appreciated. Back to my endless piles in THE HOARD.
Cheers, Dave.
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"....a poor man's version of Ningpo's CSI-worthy Retroreveal"
I would not for a moment dismiss your method. Retroreveal has limited use; limited by the quality of the source material. I've found it to be more 'miss' than 'hit' on stamp related material.
I use PhotoFiltre7 in all manner of image manipulation but the downside is having to teach oneself as there does not appear to be a tutorial.
This can be useful to change images into negative or reverse colour channels. Really I use anything that seems to help. I would imagine that the likes of Photoshop achieves the same results but I don't have anything of that ilk.
Anyway, back to the subject (well sort of). I showed a series of 20c on 30c without the Chinese overprints a couple of posts back, inferring that something may not have been as it appeared.
Well, the first stamp shown on that stock card is the rogue. Look more closely:
This is probably a perfect example of an overprint having been applied under-inked and with a featherweight touch.
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Just found this Victoria Surcharge (middle) in an envelope of old Hong Kong in HOARD #1. The color ascribed to it makes the difference between a CV of $45 and $325. I have put two other stamps on either side for reference - the 1c is Brown and the 10c is Violet (Couldn't find a Lilac stamp).
Would you say the Victoria is Brown or Lilac? To remain unbiased, please cast your vote before looking up the CVs. When a few responses have come in I'll give my opinion and tell you which one garners the higher CV.
Thanks, Dave.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
22 Jun 2016
01:10:20am
re: What Color Is It ?
It appears that the middle stamp more closely matches the right hand one.
But then, I am half blind, so who knows ?
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02:15:17am
re: What Color Is It ?
I agree with cdj1122. The middle stamp is closer to the one on the right but it still doesn't look like the same color to me. It might just be a little dirty or something but it just looks "a little off".
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re: What Color Is It ?
Dave,
The Victorian stamp is the 50c on 48c dull purple, with Chinese surcharge characters. I don't have the Scott number but this is Gibbons SG49. They catalogue this at £5.50
Here is a copy which shows the two Chinese characters slightly clearer on the left hand value panel:
.
These additional characters vary considerably in ink intensity and quality, as they were all applied by hand.
Login to Like
this post
re: What Color Is It ?
Just found the Scott number: #62. Scott describes this as lilac ???.
Here's another image of a fresh looking mint copy. The surcharge has been applied on the right hand side, in error. Different sized 'chops' were used for the Chinese characters on this value and also on the 20c on 30c.
Login to Like
this post
re: What Color Is It ?
Here is a closeup of my stamp. I don't see the Chinese character overprint (which I think was intended to go over the first two characters turning 48 to 50?) unless it is misplaced farther from the top, smudged, and blended in with the smudgy cancellation. Also, the two characters in the imprint are very close together and I'm not seeing that
That's what lead me to think it might be Scott #54 (Lilac $325 - hopeful thinking?) rather than #53 (Brown $45) and not #62 (Purple $6.25 - more hopeful thinking?)
Funny thing about colors is to my naked (no offence...) eye it wasn't clearly a lilac/violet shade but seemed more obvious once scanned and especially (in my second attempt when placed next to some reference points).
Examining the back as is, and with watermark fluid, the 50 Cents surcharge and paper watermarks are super-clear and the cancellation is much better defined, but still can't see evidence of the Chinese characters.
Is hopeful thinking now migrating to wishful thinking? Or was the hammer used for the additional imprint just very lightly applied?
Thanks Philatelic CSI'ers!
Login to Like
this post
re: What Color Is It ?
I agree with Ningpo that this is a Scott #62. The hand stamped Chinese surcharges exist in several varieties, and I can clearly see the top character in your stamp. See my pic below, circled in yellow. Also be advised that the stamp ink on these issues will just wash away in water, causing the surcharge and postmark to be all smeared up. The "50 cents" overprint uses a more permanent ink. In order for anyone to think this is a Scott #54, the entire left character panel would have to be free and clear like in Ningpo's mint stamp example. Even then, people have been known to try and clean away the surcharge to make a #62 look like a #54. With a pulled perf or two and a smeary cancel, I would say your stamp is worth about a dollar or so in my opinion. Hong Kong collectors like to read the cancel and date on used stamps. Thanks for posting this, Dave.
Linus
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this post
re: What Color Is It ?
This particular overprinted stamp is probably the most mis-identified of all Victorian Hong Kong issues.
Two factors cause this, firstly the overprint itself. Secondly, where a cancellation is in close proximity.
As I mentioned, the 'chop' varied in size. The characters also varied in shape. To help explain, here's a little background to these overprints:
These were produced following a 'request' by the Hong Kong Governor who felt that it was not sufficient to just apply an English overprint without any thought for the Chinese population.
It was considered that as the Chinese population did not properly understand English, they would be 'jibbed' at buying a stamp that stated in Chinese characters '48 cents' but were being charged 50 cents for. Even worse; having to pay $1 for a 96 cents stamp.
This was at odds with the Post Master General view that this had been the normal practice since 1885, and no inconvenience had resulted from this practice in the past. He was overruled.
Because of time and cost constraints, De La Rue were not used for this process.
Consequently, instructions were issued for local Chinese 'chops' be prepared. These were carved out of wood to overprint all stocks of the revalued 1891 issue. Three known types were used (for the 50 cent) and applied by hand by lowly paid Chinese workers on complete sheets.
Because of the variations between types, the amount of ink used, the varying pressure applied and the imprecise placement of these chops, the resulting overprints can be difficult to spot.
I myself have a mint copy of a 20 cent on 30 cent (from the same series) which looks un-overprinted. Only a 1200 dpi scan reveals that the overprint is actually there; but incredibly faint.
These variations, in conjunction with a cancellation applied in close proximity, makes identification even harder particularly as the ink used for the overprint seems remarkably similar to ink pad ink.
Incidentally, the reason for copies of these turning up without the Chinese characters, is that some had already been released to the public before the delays caused by the disagreement between the Colonial Governor's Office and the PMG. Hence the high catalogue value; particularly a used copy.
The following image is Dave's copy run through Retroreveal. Although I maintain there is an overprint there (the second character may well have been covered by the postmark), you may still disagree:
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re: What Color Is It ?
I've just found a scanned page of my collection from which I've taken these two from. I think this illustrates the rather variable nature of these overprints:
...and here's another (which I posted elsewhere), which is yet another variation, where the uppermost character is just a blob:
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Login to Like.
re: What Color Is It ?
Nice detailed explanation, Ningpo. I even learned a thing or two.
The other problem is that catalogs describe the color of the mint stamp, and most people are looking at a used stamp that has been soaked in water causing the color to change.
Just compare the colors of the mint stamp scan with the used stamp scan. Big difference in color and clarity of the stamp details. Scott # 61, the gray-green stamp from this same series, changes the most of any HK stamp I know of when put in water.
Linus
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this post
re: What Color Is It ?
Spot on regarding the 20 cent on 30 cent Linus.
This raises another point. How to distinguish grey-green from yellowish-green? This is the most difficult colour variation of Hong Kong QV issues. The ink used for the un-overprinted adhesive (the 30 cent) is very fugitive. Even in its mint state, the colour varies depending on the colour of the gum. The more yellow the gum, the more the stamp appears yellowish-green.
And that ties in nicely with examples of that stamp, although these are mint copies. These are the un-overprinted versions (or are they?):
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likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: What Color Is It ?
Thanks Linus and Ningpo for what has turned into a very enlightening discussion of both overprints and color variations, especially pertaining to this stamp but with general valuable application.
I wanted to keep pushing the envelope on the discussion for exactly that reason: to get significant detailed thought and analysis rather than just "in my opinion" or "I want to be told I'm rich" feedback. Your expertise and efforts went well beyond expectations.
I can now say that my thought early on was leaning toward classification as #62. The smudge above the cancellation (circled in yellow by Linus) struck me as being too separated from the circular cancel to be a migratory artifact and on closer inspection changing the scan's saturation/contrast/etc settings (a poor man's version of Ningpo's CSI-worthy Retroreveal) aspects of definite linearity in line with the symbol were more readily visible. The ease of the overprint's "smudgosity" as per the other posted example was the final nail in that particular coffin.
To Linus's point on value, I suspect like many of us here if it becomes a matter of worrying whether you have something worth $2 or $20 or $200 then I will consider I've got a problem. I'm ok with having some interesting stamps with a cool story - and regardless of anything else, this one was from almost 125 years ago and has a neat historical back-story.
So thanks for the participation lads, very much appreciated. Back to my endless piles in THE HOARD.
Cheers, Dave.
Login to Like
this post
re: What Color Is It ?
"....a poor man's version of Ningpo's CSI-worthy Retroreveal"
I would not for a moment dismiss your method. Retroreveal has limited use; limited by the quality of the source material. I've found it to be more 'miss' than 'hit' on stamp related material.
I use PhotoFiltre7 in all manner of image manipulation but the downside is having to teach oneself as there does not appear to be a tutorial.
This can be useful to change images into negative or reverse colour channels. Really I use anything that seems to help. I would imagine that the likes of Photoshop achieves the same results but I don't have anything of that ilk.
Anyway, back to the subject (well sort of). I showed a series of 20c on 30c without the Chinese overprints a couple of posts back, inferring that something may not have been as it appeared.
Well, the first stamp shown on that stock card is the rogue. Look more closely:
This is probably a perfect example of an overprint having been applied under-inked and with a featherweight touch.
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