Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
So this morning when I was sorting sold/unsold stuff from the past few Auctions (with the intent to combine and price lower) I decided to remove the innards to reduce weight and thus shipping costs.
Imagine my surprise when I unfolded the paper inside a foreign cover that had failed to sell (twice - even after being reduced to $0.10) and found these (mounted on a "customized" Steiner Page and scanned this morning)...
In another similar unsold cover about a half-dozen more (different) Bavaria overprints tumbled out.
Big lesson learned, and praise be that nobody wanted a bargain cover!!!
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Same thing with me ,I bought a large junk lot from an Aussie dealer which contained 100s of covers and on checking found several with MNH sets of the stamps on the covers inside .
Now I even check the sealed covers by holding them up to a bright light just to make sure there is nothing hiding inside.
Brian
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You will also be pleased to know that these have some decent value particularly if they are Type II's
The 20M "appears" to be a TypeII which puts it in the $100-$200 range
A real good find
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The value is there provided that they were postally used. Tons of CTO Bavarian stamps exist. CTOs are valued the same as unused stamps.
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Quick question. How does one determine if a single used stamp not attached to anything is a stamp that saw actual postage usage compared to a CTO? Many times CTO stamps may have had their gum washed from their back for various reasons. I have tons of German material from the early 1920s inflation period and an inability to differentiate actual postal use from CTO cancels is very frustrating to me. Can someone who performs expertizations in this area actually tell the difference?
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Thanks for the heads-up James. I'm constantly befuddled by the variations in Germany that I don't see in Scotts, probably overlooking a few extra value issues since I have no clue what I'm doing...
I don't have another copy to compare it to (yet) but when I looked on-line for pictures the 20M is clearly a Type II. The bottom of the 2 is straight and parallel with the white box at bottom, no left-to-right downward tilt at all.
I made a note on my album page and I'll start looking for the Type I now. Nice to know there's extra value there (my kids will probably spend someday) but I still get excited when I find something with CV over $1 so it's hard to get my mind around "real" money.
Cheers, Dave.
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CTO's do exist but these don't fit the stereotype CTO
Even so unused Type 2's have good value also
The key is in the R of REICH
Type I & II
Sometimes a Type one can look a little like a Type II like this one from a block
of type I's
A few mint NH of mine
Here is a TypeI so you can see the difference in the R
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Wow! Thanks for the additional info on the lettering. That absolutely confirmed that the 20M is a Type II and the others are Type I. Great feedback James!
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"How does one determine if a single used stamp not attached to anything is a stamp that saw actual postage usage compared to a CTO?
"
The problem with German used stamps from the depression era is that the cancelling devices were stolen and used to create "postally used" looking stamps. How to tell? Often it isn't that easy, and the rule of thumb is that if you don't know, then you have to value it using the unused value.
Now someone can correct me if I am wrong here, but it is my recollection that the ink used to cancel German and German area stamps from the depression era had an oily base. The cancel would seep through the paper and can be seen from the back. Later, CTO cancels used a different ink that did not have an oil base, and the cancel is difficult or not seen from the back. Also, it was a postal rule that German stamps were to be heavily canceled to prohibit reuse. Such heavily canceled stamps do not normally lose their value. Of course someone creating CTOs will want to make the canceled stamp attractive to collectors, so a nice, light cancel or often more likely a light partial cancel on a corner would be the norm. The corner cancels would be the same for officially issued CTOs from most countries as they canceled the stamps four at a time.
Using Dave's image of the used stamps, I would be inclined to think that the 3, 5 and 20 mark stamps were CTO, and the 4 and 10 Mark stamps are good candidates for being postally used.
There is a link that shows some of the names of towns that are most suspect for these CTO cancels. I lost all of my internet links when my computer died a couple of months ago. Maybe someone who has that link can post it here.
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Interesting. I just went through a small pile of German stamps from the late 1800s and early 1900s and the 1800s stamps were all heavily canceled. Your post helps to explain why.
For high catalogue values, I could see sending a stamp to have it expertized as actual used or CTO. But many of the German inflation era stamps even in genuine used condition just don't have the high catalogue value to justify such an expense. So why worry about it? It's just the principal of the thing; I would rather have actual used stamps in my collection than CTO examples.
I do have a couple of pairs of the last two stamps issued by Nazi Germany just before Berlin fell to the Soviets. They were only in use for a couple of days. Scott lists each one at $900 in genuine used condition but notes that forged cancels abound. I will probably have one pair expertized. From that expertized pair I may be able to make my own determination on the second pair.
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If you do get it expertized, please post a picture of the stamps with the verdict. It'll help everyone to see a genuine cancel, or even one that isn't.
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"Using Dave's image of the used stamps, I would be inclined to think that the 3, 5 and 20 mark stamps were CTO, and the 4 and 10 Mark stamps are good candidates for being postally used."
That is amazing from a tiny blurry image
BTW - I have MANY certified stamps from the 1920-32 period and they are not all heavily cancelled - prior to 1900 that's another story
Also right - CTO are generally 4 corner cancels and the 2 above are not - there on the side. As for the 20m, if you look closely it has 2 cancels not just one in the corner
Personally, I prefer the half full cup outlook rather than the half empty one outlook when it comes to stamps. Encouraging people on their potential find far outweighs telling them what they found is probably worthless.
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"Encouraging people on their potential find far outweighs telling them what they found is probably worthless."
I never said that what David has is worthless. I even said that at least two out of the five are promising towards being postally used. I think that qualifies as just about half full.
I think those that promote finds as valuable, especially as being valuable, to new collectors is a disservice in itself. Newer collectors have a nasty habit of gravitating towards the rarest stamp when trying to identify a stamp, and don't even give the common one a glance. Such promotion only serves to enforce that thought, and then the new collector finds out otherwise and is disillusioned.
If one has/finds a rare stamp, then I say congratulations. However, one must first presume that a stamp is the common variety, and then prove that it is the rare one. Not the other way around. In my over 44 years of collecting, if all the new collectors had, as they thought, the rare version of a stamp, then the rare stamps would be more common than the common ones.
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"I do have a couple of pairs of the last two stamps issued by Nazi Germany just before Berlin fell to the Soviets. They were only in use for a couple of days. Scott lists each one at $900 in genuine used condition but notes that forged cancels abound. I will probably have one pair expertized..."
These two stamps have been discussed before on these boards. The post offices that were actually open on April 21st 1945 have been listed elsewhere (Harper 1998), and the likelihood that stocks of stamps had been delivered, or that counter staff were busy selling FDCs to eager philatelists, has been the subject of much speculation. Any reading of the last days of the Reich from various civilian sources will underline that it is largely a matter of faith whether you believe in covers with genuinely cancelled Mi909-10s (Scott B292-3), or not. (I do not.)
okstamps, before spending sums of money on having your stamps expertised, you might care to look at the following:
"Here are some of the key findings published in Walch & Strobel’s booklet “SA-/SS-Briefe sind Nachkriegsproduktionen†(SA/SS covers are postwar productions).
1. The first day of sale was April 21, not April 20. ALL April 20 covers are postwar forgeries that were sold for American dollars (this accounts for about 90% of all known covers).
2. All covers with Berlin W 73 c postmarks (without hour) are forged.
3. A Bedarfsbrief from Berlin-Charlottenburg 2 bn is known from April 25 (but not with SA/SS stamps).
4. Berlin-Wilmersdorf 1 ceased operation on the evening of April 21. All covers with 1a, 1d, 1q and 3d postmarks from the 24 and 25 are forgeries.
5. All covers with Berlin C25 h and C 25 u postmarks from April 20 and 21 are forgeries.
6. All Berlin C43 o covers from April 21 are forgeries.
7. All Berlin W8 ss covers from April 21 have backdated postmarks.
8. All Berlin W30 covers from April 21, 23 and 24 are either forged or backdated.
9. The last American bombing raid on Berlin was the morning of April 21. At midday the Soviet artillery barrage began. All communications between inner city post offices ceased at this point.
10. It was common practice for dealers to be supplied with new issues prior to the first day of sale so that they would have ample time to prepare covers."
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Guthrum,
You point is understood and I agree that the chance that either set of those stamps are authentically canceled are very small if not impossible. Both sets, by the way, are not on cover but rather are individual stamps off paper and hinged into albums. I went to check the cancellations on them but now can't remember exactly where they are located in my piles of albums that are waiting to be broken down.
I do remember wondering when looking at them who would have taken the time to write a letter and then actually try to mail it during those last few days.
When I come across them again, I will go down your checklist and see if they are eliminated from being possible actual cancellations. If there is still a possibility they may be genuine, I will consider the expertization route. But I will post pictures of them on this forum first.
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I found one pair of those canceled Scott B292-B293 stamps last evening. The following scans are of those stamps.
The two stamps are on the bottom of the page dated April 21. This page is from a two-album early Germany collection that terminates with the end of WWII. All pages are like this one, hand-lettered and self-designed. The pages are made by Safe and are contained in 14-ring binders with dust-cases. All the stamps contained within these two albums are used and of this quality. Just too nice for me to think about breaking down at this time.
Scans of the two stamps in question follow:
Are the postmarks present on these two stamps sufficient to rule them out as possibly being authentic used stamps from that time? My experience in this area is not sufficient to pass judgment.
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A note in Scott states that forged cancels on these stamps "abound", and that "Certificates of authenticity mandatory for used examples." With such a warning, I think you have to assume, and the cancel does look suspect being at the corners as it is, that these are forged cancels unless and until you get professional verification to the contrary.
Michel offers more text on these stamps, but my German has gone down the toilet too much to fully understand what Michel says to try to state it here.
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I'd say they were postdated rather later that year.
Conveniently, each cancel omits to show which "W" number is operative. Any philatelist who managed to get these cancelled on cover would not, I think, have soaked them off.
I am not sure what tests expertisers might do to authenticate "used" examples of these particular stamps - anyone any ideas? It's possible they might refuse used singles and only attempt stamps on cover.
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In my haste to clear out stuff, especially covers (which I have no interest in collecting) I have not looked inside other than the first few where I found the only thing inside might be some cardboard or folded paper used as a "stiffener".
So this morning when I was sorting sold/unsold stuff from the past few Auctions (with the intent to combine and price lower) I decided to remove the innards to reduce weight and thus shipping costs.
Imagine my surprise when I unfolded the paper inside a foreign cover that had failed to sell (twice - even after being reduced to $0.10) and found these (mounted on a "customized" Steiner Page and scanned this morning)...
In another similar unsold cover about a half-dozen more (different) Bavaria overprints tumbled out.
Big lesson learned, and praise be that nobody wanted a bargain cover!!!
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
Same thing with me ,I bought a large junk lot from an Aussie dealer which contained 100s of covers and on checking found several with MNH sets of the stamps on the covers inside .
Now I even check the sealed covers by holding them up to a bright light just to make sure there is nothing hiding inside.
Brian
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11:59:59am
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
You will also be pleased to know that these have some decent value particularly if they are Type II's
The 20M "appears" to be a TypeII which puts it in the $100-$200 range
A real good find
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03:12:54pm
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
The value is there provided that they were postally used. Tons of CTO Bavarian stamps exist. CTOs are valued the same as unused stamps.
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
Quick question. How does one determine if a single used stamp not attached to anything is a stamp that saw actual postage usage compared to a CTO? Many times CTO stamps may have had their gum washed from their back for various reasons. I have tons of German material from the early 1920s inflation period and an inability to differentiate actual postal use from CTO cancels is very frustrating to me. Can someone who performs expertizations in this area actually tell the difference?
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
Thanks for the heads-up James. I'm constantly befuddled by the variations in Germany that I don't see in Scotts, probably overlooking a few extra value issues since I have no clue what I'm doing...
I don't have another copy to compare it to (yet) but when I looked on-line for pictures the 20M is clearly a Type II. The bottom of the 2 is straight and parallel with the white box at bottom, no left-to-right downward tilt at all.
I made a note on my album page and I'll start looking for the Type I now. Nice to know there's extra value there (my kids will probably spend someday) but I still get excited when I find something with CV over $1 so it's hard to get my mind around "real" money.
Cheers, Dave.
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04:24:10pm
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
CTO's do exist but these don't fit the stereotype CTO
Even so unused Type 2's have good value also
The key is in the R of REICH
Type I & II
Sometimes a Type one can look a little like a Type II like this one from a block
of type I's
A few mint NH of mine
Here is a TypeI so you can see the difference in the R
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
Wow! Thanks for the additional info on the lettering. That absolutely confirmed that the 20M is a Type II and the others are Type I. Great feedback James!
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05:58:20pm
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
"How does one determine if a single used stamp not attached to anything is a stamp that saw actual postage usage compared to a CTO?
"
The problem with German used stamps from the depression era is that the cancelling devices were stolen and used to create "postally used" looking stamps. How to tell? Often it isn't that easy, and the rule of thumb is that if you don't know, then you have to value it using the unused value.
Now someone can correct me if I am wrong here, but it is my recollection that the ink used to cancel German and German area stamps from the depression era had an oily base. The cancel would seep through the paper and can be seen from the back. Later, CTO cancels used a different ink that did not have an oil base, and the cancel is difficult or not seen from the back. Also, it was a postal rule that German stamps were to be heavily canceled to prohibit reuse. Such heavily canceled stamps do not normally lose their value. Of course someone creating CTOs will want to make the canceled stamp attractive to collectors, so a nice, light cancel or often more likely a light partial cancel on a corner would be the norm. The corner cancels would be the same for officially issued CTOs from most countries as they canceled the stamps four at a time.
Using Dave's image of the used stamps, I would be inclined to think that the 3, 5 and 20 mark stamps were CTO, and the 4 and 10 Mark stamps are good candidates for being postally used.
There is a link that shows some of the names of towns that are most suspect for these CTO cancels. I lost all of my internet links when my computer died a couple of months ago. Maybe someone who has that link can post it here.
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
Interesting. I just went through a small pile of German stamps from the late 1800s and early 1900s and the 1800s stamps were all heavily canceled. Your post helps to explain why.
For high catalogue values, I could see sending a stamp to have it expertized as actual used or CTO. But many of the German inflation era stamps even in genuine used condition just don't have the high catalogue value to justify such an expense. So why worry about it? It's just the principal of the thing; I would rather have actual used stamps in my collection than CTO examples.
I do have a couple of pairs of the last two stamps issued by Nazi Germany just before Berlin fell to the Soviets. They were only in use for a couple of days. Scott lists each one at $900 in genuine used condition but notes that forged cancels abound. I will probably have one pair expertized. From that expertized pair I may be able to make my own determination on the second pair.
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09:45:57pm
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
If you do get it expertized, please post a picture of the stamps with the verdict. It'll help everyone to see a genuine cancel, or even one that isn't.
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10:45:07pm
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
"Using Dave's image of the used stamps, I would be inclined to think that the 3, 5 and 20 mark stamps were CTO, and the 4 and 10 Mark stamps are good candidates for being postally used."
That is amazing from a tiny blurry image
BTW - I have MANY certified stamps from the 1920-32 period and they are not all heavily cancelled - prior to 1900 that's another story
Also right - CTO are generally 4 corner cancels and the 2 above are not - there on the side. As for the 20m, if you look closely it has 2 cancels not just one in the corner
Personally, I prefer the half full cup outlook rather than the half empty one outlook when it comes to stamps. Encouraging people on their potential find far outweighs telling them what they found is probably worthless.
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11:49:23pm
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
"Encouraging people on their potential find far outweighs telling them what they found is probably worthless."
I never said that what David has is worthless. I even said that at least two out of the five are promising towards being postally used. I think that qualifies as just about half full.
I think those that promote finds as valuable, especially as being valuable, to new collectors is a disservice in itself. Newer collectors have a nasty habit of gravitating towards the rarest stamp when trying to identify a stamp, and don't even give the common one a glance. Such promotion only serves to enforce that thought, and then the new collector finds out otherwise and is disillusioned.
If one has/finds a rare stamp, then I say congratulations. However, one must first presume that a stamp is the common variety, and then prove that it is the rare one. Not the other way around. In my over 44 years of collecting, if all the new collectors had, as they thought, the rare version of a stamp, then the rare stamps would be more common than the common ones.
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
"I do have a couple of pairs of the last two stamps issued by Nazi Germany just before Berlin fell to the Soviets. They were only in use for a couple of days. Scott lists each one at $900 in genuine used condition but notes that forged cancels abound. I will probably have one pair expertized..."
These two stamps have been discussed before on these boards. The post offices that were actually open on April 21st 1945 have been listed elsewhere (Harper 1998), and the likelihood that stocks of stamps had been delivered, or that counter staff were busy selling FDCs to eager philatelists, has been the subject of much speculation. Any reading of the last days of the Reich from various civilian sources will underline that it is largely a matter of faith whether you believe in covers with genuinely cancelled Mi909-10s (Scott B292-3), or not. (I do not.)
okstamps, before spending sums of money on having your stamps expertised, you might care to look at the following:
"Here are some of the key findings published in Walch & Strobel’s booklet “SA-/SS-Briefe sind Nachkriegsproduktionen†(SA/SS covers are postwar productions).
1. The first day of sale was April 21, not April 20. ALL April 20 covers are postwar forgeries that were sold for American dollars (this accounts for about 90% of all known covers).
2. All covers with Berlin W 73 c postmarks (without hour) are forged.
3. A Bedarfsbrief from Berlin-Charlottenburg 2 bn is known from April 25 (but not with SA/SS stamps).
4. Berlin-Wilmersdorf 1 ceased operation on the evening of April 21. All covers with 1a, 1d, 1q and 3d postmarks from the 24 and 25 are forgeries.
5. All covers with Berlin C25 h and C 25 u postmarks from April 20 and 21 are forgeries.
6. All Berlin C43 o covers from April 21 are forgeries.
7. All Berlin W8 ss covers from April 21 have backdated postmarks.
8. All Berlin W30 covers from April 21, 23 and 24 are either forged or backdated.
9. The last American bombing raid on Berlin was the morning of April 21. At midday the Soviet artillery barrage began. All communications between inner city post offices ceased at this point.
10. It was common practice for dealers to be supplied with new issues prior to the first day of sale so that they would have ample time to prepare covers."
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
Guthrum,
You point is understood and I agree that the chance that either set of those stamps are authentically canceled are very small if not impossible. Both sets, by the way, are not on cover but rather are individual stamps off paper and hinged into albums. I went to check the cancellations on them but now can't remember exactly where they are located in my piles of albums that are waiting to be broken down.
I do remember wondering when looking at them who would have taken the time to write a letter and then actually try to mail it during those last few days.
When I come across them again, I will go down your checklist and see if they are eliminated from being possible actual cancellations. If there is still a possibility they may be genuine, I will consider the expertization route. But I will post pictures of them on this forum first.
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
I found one pair of those canceled Scott B292-B293 stamps last evening. The following scans are of those stamps.
The two stamps are on the bottom of the page dated April 21. This page is from a two-album early Germany collection that terminates with the end of WWII. All pages are like this one, hand-lettered and self-designed. The pages are made by Safe and are contained in 14-ring binders with dust-cases. All the stamps contained within these two albums are used and of this quality. Just too nice for me to think about breaking down at this time.
Scans of the two stamps in question follow:
Are the postmarks present on these two stamps sufficient to rule them out as possibly being authentic used stamps from that time? My experience in this area is not sufficient to pass judgment.
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12:17:37pm
re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
A note in Scott states that forged cancels on these stamps "abound", and that "Certificates of authenticity mandatory for used examples." With such a warning, I think you have to assume, and the cancel does look suspect being at the corners as it is, that these are forged cancels unless and until you get professional verification to the contrary.
Michel offers more text on these stamps, but my German has gone down the toilet too much to fully understand what Michel says to try to state it here.
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re: TALES FROM THE HOARD: Always check inside covers - a nice surprise this morning...
I'd say they were postdated rather later that year.
Conveniently, each cancel omits to show which "W" number is operative. Any philatelist who managed to get these cancelled on cover would not, I think, have soaked them off.
I am not sure what tests expertisers might do to authenticate "used" examples of these particular stamps - anyone any ideas? It's possible they might refuse used singles and only attempt stamps on cover.
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