What we collect!

 

Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps



What we collect!
33 visitors online
What we collect!
33 visitors online


Europe/Other : Hungarian CTO's?

 

Author
Postings
seanpashby
Members Picture


24 Feb 2016
08:44:58pm
I am trying to figure out if these are cto's. I find it hard to believe that even a part of a set has such perfect and identical cancels, especially on such an obscure issue as this. Does it point to outright forgeries?
Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
ikeyPikey
Members Picture


24 Feb 2016
11:47:18pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Or, perhaps, albumization has reared its ugly head?

I can see a philatelic hand-back cover, neatly & carefully favor-cancelled, only to later be cut up by someone who wanted their stamps to fit in their respective little boxes on an album page.

A wise man once told me: "Never ask how they got that way."

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
youpiao
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
01:00:49am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

I concur with ikey; most likely a favor cancel, where the original collector affixed the stamps to a cover, or covers, and handed them to a postal clerk for nice neat postmarks.

As bad a rap as CTO's have today, among collectors back in the old days attitudes were different. Even today, though, in China, CTO's with full gum are the preferred collecting method.

Ted

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG. Zoom-Boing. Z'nourrwringmm"
seanpashby
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
01:37:19am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Thank you both. I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely.

Like
Login to Like
this post
youpiao
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
02:05:54am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Actually, in the first half of the 20th century, stamp collectors were even more active during times of upheaval, because holding stamps was better than carrying currency. If you had to flee your country, your stamps were your bank account.

Ted

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG. Zoom-Boing. Z'nourrwringmm"
amsd
Members Picture


Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Feb 2016
04:30:58am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

i'm going to add another possibility here: Europeans were far more conscious of CDS placement than their American cousins. Where I see smudges and blobs here, I see perfectly centered cancels throughout Europe during the hand-striking days. A careful clerk in an office might always strive for the best centering. So, I wouldn't go directly to the hand-back answer.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP
Guthrum
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
04:53:18am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

"
...I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely."


I must admit that comment had me stumped. Few countries are older, I should have thought, than Hungary. Wikipedia reminds us that "following centuries of successive habitation by Celts, Romans, Huns, Slavs, Gepids, and Avars, the foundation of Hungary was laid in the late 9th century by the Hungarian grand prince Arpad..."

That puts it at roughly the same age as, for example, England.

Hungary issued stamps from 1868. Many of its 20th century stamps attest to its long medieval history, even though its borders were messed about after Trianon, and it had a dismally ambivalent WW2 trajectory. Currently it has a rather nasty right-wing element in its politics (the "Jobbik" party) which I sincerely hope is short-lived.

Like
Login to Like
this post
nigelc
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
05:38:39am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state.

Like
Login to Like
this post
ikeyPikey
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
08:47:45am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

A few other thoughts ...

CTOs? The near-universal practice in what became known as CTOs was a single strike to demonetize four stamps at once, as this would leave so much of the stamp unmolested.

(Yes, it is possible that, in the early days of CTOs, some postal agency did it differently, but in cases like this, I think that we should stick to the more likely explanations.)

Forgeries? Is this stamp set worth a good deal more when it is found GPU (Genuinely Postally Used)? If not, forgery seems unlikely.

And, finally, a few unkind words about smuggling:

Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.

But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.

I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Guthrum
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
09:30:20am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

"Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state."


Oh dear. I made the very silly mistake of looking at the heading, and at the succeeding posts, none of which made this oddly vital distinction. Wadda know-nothing jerk! Time for one of these...

D'Oh


Like
Login to Like
this post
nigelc
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
10:33:34am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Easily done Guthrum! Happy

As IkeyPikey says these could have come from a neatly cancelled cover or maybe a set of stamps cancelled on a piece of paper, i.e. a form of handback.

I wouldn't worry about the status of the cancellation as long as it's genuine.

I've not seen much information on these apart from the listing in my old Michel catalogue.

The overprints here look different in terms of detailed layout from the one shown in Michel but I suspect that the illustration in the catalogue is just meant to be indicative.

I have only four (mint) stamps of this set and the overprint looks the same as here for what it's worth.

Given that the cancellation looks ok to me (in terms of style, placename and date) it suggests that these stamps and mine may be genuine. However, Michel does have a warning of forgeries of this set.

The stamps here (and mine) have the lowest catalogue value which I find encouraging in terms of them being genuine.

I cannot find any reference to the two surcharged values in Michel.


Like
Login to Like
this post
copy55555
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
12:36:19pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

My parents fled the advancing Soviet (Russian) army in 1944. My dad had a fairly comprehensive collection of Lithuania. He decided to bury his collection in favor of taking Russian gold coins as he and my mom fled west. As a pharmacist he also dragged along his manual of various medicines (which I treasure now.) The gold helped, the manual did not.

I've seen many Lithuanian stamps with similar cancels. Complete sets artistically arranged on large covers and postmarked. I've also seen complete sets or singles on piece all postmarked on the same date. A lot of favor cancels - even during times of major conflicts.

Tad

Like
Login to Like
this post
HungaryForStamps
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
01:49:47pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Undoubtedly favor cancels (or made to look so), which are not that uncommon. Are the overprints genuine (and hence the cancels)? First, the 20, 40, 50 and 50 filler and 1 Korona are the most common (e.g., 25,000 of the 1K printed). The 2K is a little rarer (1300 printed), so why forge the least common? But its been done before and Hungarian overprints are rife with forgeries.

The genuine overprint was printed using a machine press using black ink, so the ink should appear to squeeze to the outer edges of the letters. There should be serifs on the 1921 and the "a" in "megszallt" drops down out of alignment with the "z" and "llt". I see the "a" out of alignment on the "unissued" 250/15f and the 350/25f (the ones without the cancel), but not sure about the overprints on these in general. Not sure I see enough of anything on the canceled stamps to have an opinion.

As with most Hungarian overprints of this time period, expert opinion is the only certainty.


Like
Login to Like
this post
seanpashby
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
01:54:05pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Thank you everyone. I feel much better about this set now and will try to add them to my collection.

Like
Login to Like
this post
HungaryForStamps
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
01:56:52pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

As I recall, certain of the Harvesters, including the two surcharged values were "unissued" so I don't think they were ever released by the PO for use. I don't have my reference material at hand, but perhaps Western Hungary was annexed by Austria before they saw use.

Like
Login to Like
this post
seanpashby
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
04:22:21pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

You are correct Lewis. According to my Brainard catalog, the two surcharged harvesters were "unissued".

Like
Login to Like
this post
Guthrum
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
05:27:38pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

"Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.

But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.

I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported."


I have myself peddled the information that highly-placed officials from around 1944 used and in some cases created collections and stamp issues as portable currency while making for whatever destination would accept them (often by way of the Vatican).

Annoyingly I have made no record of my sources for this, and I suspect we need them if we are not to discount the idea altogether. It would be difficult to scour every WW2 book I've read in the past few years: what we need is a working academic on this board.

It's possible that the Third Reich Study Group may have something - until I find it I wouldn't go along with Ikey just yet.



Like
Login to Like
this post
ikeyPikey
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
07:07:14pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

"... highly-placed officials from around 1944 used and in some cases created collections ..."



Goodness, Guthrum, even I don't quickly change my mind to agree with me.

But that someone merely showed-up with a stamp collection would not be enough to prove your point.

One element in the academic's SOW (Scope of Work) should be to distinguish between stamp collections that were assembled/created versus those that were simply stolen.

The distinction is critical, as choosing to convert cash into another asset is very different than merely grabbing anything of value that is within reach.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
seanpashby
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
11:48:23pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Here is another example, but a little different. The stamps and the overprints look good to me. This person applied them all to a piece of paper then had them canceled. Is there a reason they did this? It's not a cover so no historical significance there.Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
vinman
Members Picture


25 Feb 2016
11:51:24pm
re: Hungarian CTO's?

The story of refugees smuggling stamps from WW11 Europe sounded familiar. I have several of Herman Herst's books. Stories to Collect Stamps By, More Stories to Collect Stamps By and Nassau Street.
In Nassua Street there are two stories that refer to refugees smuggling stamps. the first is chapter 11, page 96. The next story is chapter 13, page 116. he starts off chapter 13 with "You could always tell when a steamship arrived from Europe. Within 24 hours the parade of the pitiful would commence. gaunt and hungry, the refugees find Nassau Street, the place where they would start their fight back to respectability and human dignity. There they would convert the stamps that at the risk of their lives they had smuggled out of Germany."
In More Stories to Collect Stamps By. On page 172, the story titled Profits Can Be Losses he refers to smuggling stamps out of Czechoslovakia.
I am sure I read elsewhere other stories about refugees smuggling but I am not sure where.

Vince

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
Guthrum
Members Picture


26 Feb 2016
06:08:29am
re: Hungarian CTO's?

Ikey, vinman, I have shifted my response to the 'portable asset?' debate onto the 'General' part of the DB, as I felt it was hi-jacking Sean's original CTO theme.

Sean, apologies for this (and for implying you did not know what Hungary was!).

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
seanpashby

24 Feb 2016
08:44:58pm

I am trying to figure out if these are cto's. I find it hard to believe that even a part of a set has such perfect and identical cancels, especially on such an obscure issue as this. Does it point to outright forgeries?
Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
ikeyPikey

24 Feb 2016
11:47:18pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Or, perhaps, albumization has reared its ugly head?

I can see a philatelic hand-back cover, neatly & carefully favor-cancelled, only to later be cut up by someone who wanted their stamps to fit in their respective little boxes on an album page.

A wise man once told me: "Never ask how they got that way."

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Members Picture
youpiao

25 Feb 2016
01:00:49am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

I concur with ikey; most likely a favor cancel, where the original collector affixed the stamps to a cover, or covers, and handed them to a postal clerk for nice neat postmarks.

As bad a rap as CTO's have today, among collectors back in the old days attitudes were different. Even today, though, in China, CTO's with full gum are the preferred collecting method.

Ted

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG. Zoom-Boing. Z'nourrwringmm"
Members Picture
seanpashby

25 Feb 2016
01:37:19am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Thank you both. I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
youpiao

25 Feb 2016
02:05:54am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Actually, in the first half of the 20th century, stamp collectors were even more active during times of upheaval, because holding stamps was better than carrying currency. If you had to flee your country, your stamps were your bank account.

Ted

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG. Zoom-Boing. Z'nourrwringmm"
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Feb 2016
04:30:58am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

i'm going to add another possibility here: Europeans were far more conscious of CDS placement than their American cousins. Where I see smudges and blobs here, I see perfectly centered cancels throughout Europe during the hand-striking days. A careful clerk in an office might always strive for the best centering. So, I wouldn't go directly to the hand-back answer.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
Members Picture
Guthrum

25 Feb 2016
04:53:18am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

"
...I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely."


I must admit that comment had me stumped. Few countries are older, I should have thought, than Hungary. Wikipedia reminds us that "following centuries of successive habitation by Celts, Romans, Huns, Slavs, Gepids, and Avars, the foundation of Hungary was laid in the late 9th century by the Hungarian grand prince Arpad..."

That puts it at roughly the same age as, for example, England.

Hungary issued stamps from 1868. Many of its 20th century stamps attest to its long medieval history, even though its borders were messed about after Trianon, and it had a dismally ambivalent WW2 trajectory. Currently it has a rather nasty right-wing element in its politics (the "Jobbik" party) which I sincerely hope is short-lived.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
nigelc

25 Feb 2016
05:38:39am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
ikeyPikey

25 Feb 2016
08:47:45am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

A few other thoughts ...

CTOs? The near-universal practice in what became known as CTOs was a single strike to demonetize four stamps at once, as this would leave so much of the stamp unmolested.

(Yes, it is possible that, in the early days of CTOs, some postal agency did it differently, but in cases like this, I think that we should stick to the more likely explanations.)

Forgeries? Is this stamp set worth a good deal more when it is found GPU (Genuinely Postally Used)? If not, forgery seems unlikely.

And, finally, a few unkind words about smuggling:

Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.

But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.

I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Members Picture
Guthrum

25 Feb 2016
09:30:20am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

"Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state."


Oh dear. I made the very silly mistake of looking at the heading, and at the succeeding posts, none of which made this oddly vital distinction. Wadda know-nothing jerk! Time for one of these...

D'Oh


Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
nigelc

25 Feb 2016
10:33:34am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Easily done Guthrum! Happy

As IkeyPikey says these could have come from a neatly cancelled cover or maybe a set of stamps cancelled on a piece of paper, i.e. a form of handback.

I wouldn't worry about the status of the cancellation as long as it's genuine.

I've not seen much information on these apart from the listing in my old Michel catalogue.

The overprints here look different in terms of detailed layout from the one shown in Michel but I suspect that the illustration in the catalogue is just meant to be indicative.

I have only four (mint) stamps of this set and the overprint looks the same as here for what it's worth.

Given that the cancellation looks ok to me (in terms of style, placename and date) it suggests that these stamps and mine may be genuine. However, Michel does have a warning of forgeries of this set.

The stamps here (and mine) have the lowest catalogue value which I find encouraging in terms of them being genuine.

I cannot find any reference to the two surcharged values in Michel.


Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
copy55555

25 Feb 2016
12:36:19pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

My parents fled the advancing Soviet (Russian) army in 1944. My dad had a fairly comprehensive collection of Lithuania. He decided to bury his collection in favor of taking Russian gold coins as he and my mom fled west. As a pharmacist he also dragged along his manual of various medicines (which I treasure now.) The gold helped, the manual did not.

I've seen many Lithuanian stamps with similar cancels. Complete sets artistically arranged on large covers and postmarked. I've also seen complete sets or singles on piece all postmarked on the same date. A lot of favor cancels - even during times of major conflicts.

Tad

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
HungaryForStamps

25 Feb 2016
01:49:47pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Undoubtedly favor cancels (or made to look so), which are not that uncommon. Are the overprints genuine (and hence the cancels)? First, the 20, 40, 50 and 50 filler and 1 Korona are the most common (e.g., 25,000 of the 1K printed). The 2K is a little rarer (1300 printed), so why forge the least common? But its been done before and Hungarian overprints are rife with forgeries.

The genuine overprint was printed using a machine press using black ink, so the ink should appear to squeeze to the outer edges of the letters. There should be serifs on the 1921 and the "a" in "megszallt" drops down out of alignment with the "z" and "llt". I see the "a" out of alignment on the "unissued" 250/15f and the 350/25f (the ones without the cancel), but not sure about the overprints on these in general. Not sure I see enough of anything on the canceled stamps to have an opinion.

As with most Hungarian overprints of this time period, expert opinion is the only certainty.


Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
seanpashby

25 Feb 2016
01:54:05pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Thank you everyone. I feel much better about this set now and will try to add them to my collection.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
HungaryForStamps

25 Feb 2016
01:56:52pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

As I recall, certain of the Harvesters, including the two surcharged values were "unissued" so I don't think they were ever released by the PO for use. I don't have my reference material at hand, but perhaps Western Hungary was annexed by Austria before they saw use.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
seanpashby

25 Feb 2016
04:22:21pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

You are correct Lewis. According to my Brainard catalog, the two surcharged harvesters were "unissued".

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Guthrum

25 Feb 2016
05:27:38pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

"Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.

But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.

I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported."


I have myself peddled the information that highly-placed officials from around 1944 used and in some cases created collections and stamp issues as portable currency while making for whatever destination would accept them (often by way of the Vatican).

Annoyingly I have made no record of my sources for this, and I suspect we need them if we are not to discount the idea altogether. It would be difficult to scour every WW2 book I've read in the past few years: what we need is a working academic on this board.

It's possible that the Third Reich Study Group may have something - until I find it I wouldn't go along with Ikey just yet.



Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
ikeyPikey

25 Feb 2016
07:07:14pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

"... highly-placed officials from around 1944 used and in some cases created collections ..."



Goodness, Guthrum, even I don't quickly change my mind to agree with me.

But that someone merely showed-up with a stamp collection would not be enough to prove your point.

One element in the academic's SOW (Scope of Work) should be to distinguish between stamp collections that were assembled/created versus those that were simply stolen.

The distinction is critical, as choosing to convert cash into another asset is very different than merely grabbing anything of value that is within reach.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Members Picture
seanpashby

25 Feb 2016
11:48:23pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Here is another example, but a little different. The stamps and the overprints look good to me. This person applied them all to a piece of paper then had them canceled. Is there a reason they did this? It's not a cover so no historical significance there.Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
vinman

25 Feb 2016
11:51:24pm

re: Hungarian CTO's?

The story of refugees smuggling stamps from WW11 Europe sounded familiar. I have several of Herman Herst's books. Stories to Collect Stamps By, More Stories to Collect Stamps By and Nassau Street.
In Nassua Street there are two stories that refer to refugees smuggling stamps. the first is chapter 11, page 96. The next story is chapter 13, page 116. he starts off chapter 13 with "You could always tell when a steamship arrived from Europe. Within 24 hours the parade of the pitiful would commence. gaunt and hungry, the refugees find Nassau Street, the place where they would start their fight back to respectability and human dignity. There they would convert the stamps that at the risk of their lives they had smuggled out of Germany."
In More Stories to Collect Stamps By. On page 172, the story titled Profits Can Be Losses he refers to smuggling stamps out of Czechoslovakia.
I am sure I read elsewhere other stories about refugees smuggling but I am not sure where.

Vince

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
Members Picture
Guthrum

26 Feb 2016
06:08:29am

re: Hungarian CTO's?

Ikey, vinman, I have shifted my response to the 'portable asset?' debate onto the 'General' part of the DB, as I felt it was hi-jacking Sean's original CTO theme.

Sean, apologies for this (and for implying you did not know what Hungary was!).

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

Contact Webmaster | Visitors Online | Unsubscribe Emails


User Agreement

Copyright © 2022 Stamporama.com