Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
2)
Thank You for looking
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#1 is either:
Greece Scott #N110d (if engraved)
Greece Scott #N126d (if lithographed)
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#2 looks to be the Belgian print with clear impression. Greece Scott #68
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Thanks a Bunch Michael..
Again Much Appreciated..
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As for the second stamp I have to disagree with Michael. It is clear to me that it is a poor impression Athens printing. The Early Hermes heads can often be very difficult to ID. If the stamp you are trying to ID has a readable year on the cancel this can often be helpful. The clear Belgian prints were made from 1886-1888 and the course Athens prints from 1889-95. The date on the stamp is 1892 which was four years after the Belgian prints were last made, which would make it somewhat unlikely that it would be a Belgian print.
However this stamp is so coarse that the date is not really the key factor in the I.D.
See my imperf page of small Hermes Heads HERE. The clear Belgian prints are the stamps at top of the page and the courser Athens prints at the bottom. When comparing the 20 centers at top and bottom it should be easy to see the difference and that your stamp matches the Athens prints, which would make your stamp Scott #94. It should also be noted that there were more printings especially in later years than Scott makes note of. Some Athens printings are much clearer than others and some Belgian prints are coarser than others. Some times it can be difficult to tell one from another but I do not find it difficult with yours.
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I can accept that. My eyes are sagged out right now!
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Hi, 
I agree with AntoniusRa findings and accept..
AntoniusRa Very Nice reference collection
Thank You Michael,
Hope your eyes are ready for
The next round of 
Can You help me ID this Stamp ?..
Thanks Again everyone and Happy Stamp-in
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"AntoniusRa Very Nice Thumbs Up reference collection"
My collection site not only shows Greece but most of the country's of the world and their stamps. If you would spend more time reading your catalog and referencing my site, you will not have to ask so many ID questions. By asking so many questions you are forcing other members posts off the board, which is unfortunate at best.
My site is the link below.
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Well antoniusra, Why would I want to 
reference your site, I think your are a un friendly person 
to say the least. I will leave StampoRama and close my user account because I ask to many ?'s have a pleasent life.
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"By asking so many questions you are forcing other members posts off the board, which is unfortunate at best."
Stamporama does not have a quota on the number of questions that a member may ask. One of the missions of Stamporama is education. Members asking questions regarding how to ID a stamp helps not only the one asking the question, but also others who may be unaware of certain aspects of identification of a stamp.
There is a point to be made that there is reference material readily available to all collectors to help them with stamp identification and all other aspects of the hobby. Many questions can be answered by taking a few moments and reading the introduction and other reference sections of the catalogs.
Still, we do not censor or prohibit members from asking questions or limiting how many they may ask.
Michael
DB Moderator
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Dear AntoniusRa
On your site, which is a labor of love, you posted the following:
"This site is dedicated to my father Gene R. Ward who introduced me to collecting in 1958.
Also to my boyhood neighbor in Shrub Oak NY, Herman (Pat) Hearst jr."
On our SOR site, you wrote:
"If you would spend more time reading your catalog and referencing my site, you will not have to ask so many ID questions. By asking so many questions you are forcing other members posts off the board, which is unfortunate at best."
Are you being true to what your own mentors taught you? Would they have finger pointed and criticized? Would they be proud of your post?
Just asking!
Dan C.
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Dan, Seriously? No I don't have to worry about that. In fact I will probably show it to him tomorrow and I know exactly what he will say, but he doesn't have to. Adios
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How could this have been dealt with better?
One (new) member asks what even a disinterested observer can judge to be rather too many questions too soon. They are responded to in good faith by several others, but after a while there are one or two reservations and the knowledge-seeker is gently advised to do a bit of research for himself. No obvious effect. Then the advice becomes less gentle, the new guy threatens to take off (and perhaps does), and the dispenser of such advice in turn becomes a target.
For what they are worth, my own sympathies are with the gentle advisers, but then again my whole professional background has been one of self-preparation and research, and that will not apply to everyone.
Could a moderator not have had a quiet word privately with John, presenting the same sort of case as Mitch does above? Would it need to be a moderator?
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Ian, some of us WERE doing precisely as you suggested, long before you suggested it. Back channel advice on how to how to learn more stuff. Of course, back channel, by its very nature, is invisible to most.
New collecors (or guys returning after decades absence) need to be encouraged and shown the ropes. We gave him answers but not tools. "Give a man a fish....."
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08:21:51am
I answered several of those "Id requested", however, truth be told, I was on the side that was beginning to become annoyed with the frequency.
From my standpoint, it wasn't the quantity of the posts, it was that most of them were of the sort that were hoping that a very common stamp was in fact the special variety or rare color shade. That sort of thing could go on forever.
It is important for new collectors to understand that the odds are something like 2,000,000,000 : 100 that they have the common stamp of which 2,000,0000,000 were issued, and not one of the 100 varieties or errors of a seemingly similar stamp identified in the catalog with a value of thousands of dollars. (Numbers made up, but you get the idea).
The best advice has been given on this DB many times: "Assume that you have the most common variety until and unless you find evidence otherwise".
Many times I have been offered boyhood collections (particularly of Washington-Franklins) that purported to contain hundreds of thousands of dollars of catalogue value, with each stamp identified as the rarest variety that looked anything like the stamp present. My response is always: "Unmarketable unless accompanied by an independent certificate of authenticity from an organization such as APS or Philatelic Foundation". That usually ends the conversation. If I try to explain the true facts of stamp identification, I typically am viewed as a villain who is attempting to "rip them off".
Roy
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08:32:18am
" "Assume that you have the most common variety until and unless you find evidence otherwise""
That is something that I had to learn as a new collector and it is very sage advice. I now look at every stamp as being common unless there is very compelling evidence that it may not be. This is a learned behavior and can take some time for a new collector to grasp.
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Dear AntoniusRa and Guthrum,
David points out "New collecors (or guys returning after decades absence) need to be encouraged and shown the ropes. We gave him answers but not tools. "Give a man a fish....."
As I read the entries it seemed apparent that in good faith you all attempted to impart good, useful information, and after a while you became impatient with the apparent inability/decision on the newbies' part to take over the research/exploration/directions you were offering.
Keeping David's points in mind, were you aware that you may not have been really answering the questions that you were being asked? Granted that you gave correct, practical, detailed answers. But is that what was being asked? In Psychology we know that often the presenting problem is quite different from the underlying issue.
Some of you, in retrospect, mention that perhaps he only wanted cash/value/rarities,etc. All likely, all possible, but where was this actually ascertained? Keep in mind that as a newbie, he himself might not have been aware of the underlying issues.
Your irritation, impatience, and frustration are all understandable, but any harsh reaction on your parts were not and are not the best part of you. So, AntoniusRa, to your question 'Really?' Yes, really.
Can we agree that, in retrospect, we all could have done more?
Best,
Dan C.
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Newbie questions are a self-limiting epidemic.
People who like to help will help until they get tired of helping that newbie.
No need to say 'why'.
The newbie who keeps getting answers like 'minimal value' & 'too damaged' & 'utterly common' will get bored of posting stamps to identify.
From both sides, newbie questions are a self-limiting epidemic.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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There are "stamp collectors" and then there are "philatelists". The only real difference is the time spent on the hobby/lifestyle.
Stamp collectors tend to be newbies or those that return after a long period, or those who's lives have just not allowed the time to become a philatelist. Most have the same heart and passion for stamps as philatelists, or at least at the given point where they decide to join an online stamp club. The majority come to sites like this because they want to learn, but sometimes you have to go so far as to teach them "how to learn"...
...and that's where the philatelist comes in. I have the deepest respect for those that reach the highest level within their chosen field, and granted, not everyone has the personality to be a mentor, but that's what all newbie stamp collectors hope to find. Someone willing and able to teach them from the ground up, how to be better at stamp collecting and hopefully one day reach the status of Philatelist themselves. Isn't that the way it should be?
Be a mentor if it's in your nature to be so. If not, that's okay too. But please don't be too quick to judge the newbie or even the average stamp collector. This conversation would have taken a completely different road, had the OP posted a Scott US #1 with perfect margins...and we could've been the lucky ones to see it here first.
Peace amongst the masses,
WB
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Namaste, White Buffalo. You have said what I tried to say, but so much better.
Dan C.
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The guy just signed up for SoR on Thursday. He probably had no clue that some might consider it a lot of requests for identification. After all, we do have an entire DB topic labeled "Can you help me identify this?". I thought the guy was putting up alot of friendly posts full of "please", "thanks" and smiley face emoticons. My opinion is that the dude shouldn't have been called out like that in public.
-Ernie
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Dan et al, Unfortunately, I don't think most of you guys carefully read my post(s) and got my point. I did carefully write it and in no way apologize for it. The thing I was irritated at was that when I went to the last 30 posts, he had pushed nearly all of the other members stamp related posts off the page. I did not care about the quality or value of the stamps he was showing but just about giving him helpful information so that he can go sell his stamps, that he seems to no longer care about (see new member post). As far as questions being asked;. I think people who ask questions should put as much effort and thought into the questions as they hope to get in return as answers. Many of the questions were so vague as to make it a guessing game. Refer to the "question" on the two Burmese stamps and who do you think would have guessed what the question was in the first place.
As far as paying attention to what I have written, where did I say 'Really"?
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Newbie questions are great and they are encouraged here but as Mitchell points out it has pushed most of the other discussions off the page. I also notice in another thread a member was looking for an ignore button. I just skip those discussions with "identify this for me". I don't have a WW catalog so I can't be much help identifying most WW stamps. I can help with some Scandinavian countries and US. Part of mentoring is to try to get the newbie to use the tools that are available to us all. To just keep asking "identify this for me' does get old.
I suggest check out the library with a batch of stamps and use their catalogs. It will be more educational that way. If after putting some effort in learning about your stamps I am sure there will members here more then happy to help with the identification of your stamps. Please don't leave or stop asking questions but put some effort in your new hobby, it will be more enjoyable.
Vince
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What if the poor guy just wanted to talk stamps with somebody? Maybe he was a bit over zealous and his method of delivery was off a smidge, but there's no denying his enthusiasm and appreciation for the help. If I see it correctly, he had a total of 6 or 7 questions on identity. Why blindside him? I didn't see any indication of anyone "becoming" annoyed with his questions and I seriously doubt anyone sent him a PM and said, "can I offer a little advise...? Whatever method was used to help the OP and "promote the hobby", it didn't work out real well. Instead, the club just lost a member who hadn't broken a single rule, or at least none that I'm aware of.
I'm sure there was no ill intent and maybe this member was a little too thin skinned, but all too often, it's not what's said, but how it's said that can lead to hard feelings.
WB
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WhiteBuffalo, In the attempt of keeping the facts straight there were 18 posts from him regarding Id's, not 6 or 7. These were all made on the same day and you can not see them without viewing posts made in the "Last week"
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Dear AntoniusRa,Vinman, and those who appreciated the frank and honest exchange we are having here. As White Buffalo observes, the club may have just lost a member who hadn't broken a single rule. Hopefully we can all avoid that in the future through understanding the impact we may have upon the newbie.
The focus of our exchange is to be the family we wish to be, without hard feelings as a result of impatience. This we can do.As White Buffalo notes " it's not what's said, but how it's said that can lead to hard feelings."
AntoniusRa, would it surprise you to know that your position is backed by other members who have contacted me individually? I mention this to acknowledge that your position stated an excess that needed addressing, and is recognized as such by other members.It is not the position per se that we are discussing, but how it is addressed. For those who prefer a bottom line, no frills,straight from the shoulder observation, your approach is quite acceptable. There are many though who would find that approach unacceptable. So rather than distract from a valid observation because of presentation, moderation in the observation would seem to be called for.
You are correct, by the way, in faulting me for using the term 'really' rather than the term 'seriously' that you used. To my understanding though, they convey the same thought. Am I wrong here?
You and I can agree on this point "As far as questions being asked I think people who ask questions should put as much effort and thought into the questions as they hope to get in return as answers." Our disagreement comes in how one gets the newbie to do just that.
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
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18 posts, 6 or 7 threads/questions, who cares?! Academics and number crunching aren't my strong points.(if I have any) My comments were and are aimed only at the end result. Feelings were hurt and a member was lost and I fail to see how that could be viewed as anything else but wrong.
With all due respect,
WB
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Dan, Good thoughts........
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If posts have been "pushed off" the screen when you click on "Last 30", you can always click on "Last Day" and see them.
Also, getting irritated over someone asking for help IDing alot of stamps makes no sense. Just because someone asks for ID help is not an obligation on any one person to answer the question. If you don't feel like doing it, then don't do it.
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I just reread this topic and Mitchell's response on 07 Jan 2016
06:07:40pm it was very informative and took time to look up this informaton for Sebastopolfun. I think Sebastopolfun's reaction after all the help he has received was a bit of an overreaction.
Vince
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vinman is correct. Getting that many answers to that many questions and skulking off because one guy got impatient seems a bit much.
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07:20:18am
" .... If not, that's okay too. But please don't be too quick to judge the newbie or even the average stamp collector. ....
There is another point that is or has been missed.
In college, I discovered and observed that every time I asked a question there were two or more classmates who were just as puzzled but too shy to step up and ask. Shyness is not my strong suit. Several of the better teachers advised me to not hold back because of the tendency of some students to be wary of appearing to not have understood and thus lose face among peers.
Later in life when teaching, I encouraged questions myself and observed the same situation.
I have often quoted my motto for questions;
" The only dumb question is the unasked question."
We may speculate as to whether the new member may have been driven away, but to that, consider the possibility that other newbies, some future members perusing the discussion topics, who will feel that they are not going to be treated politely if they ask a basic question. Actually there is another stamp site where they can go if they wish to experience that treatment.
Actually, to be as frank and forthcoming as Mitch was, I consider his post rude and his attitude elitist.
Had I picked up on this earlier, I'd have sent the new member a polite and chatty private message, as I have done several times before with new members explaining how to search for answers, or whatever I felt would help him or her along.
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09:04:33am
Charlie, I do not disagree with you often, but here I must. The first time a "simple" question is asked (one to which the answer could be easily ascertained with a minimum effort), I can swallow my irritation and answer politely. However, once shown the pathway to follow for answers to simple questions, I find it increasingly difficult when the same type of questions are offered time and again with no apparent effort on the part of the asker to find the answers himself. This is especially irritating when the asker of questions is obviously seeking confirmation of the fact he is in possession of very valuable stamps, when, in fact, in every instance even the slightest investigative care would have positively demonstrated otherwise.
I have tried not to respond to this particular issue, but I am tired of hearing about the self avowed "newbie" whose sole purpose (as stated in his member introduction) was to sell stamps.
"I am from Northern California and just opened my collection of US and worldwide recently which I have had stored for about 22 years....I will be posting stamps for help with identification color varities help. I will be selling my stamps individually **and ones I post will be for sale also**."
Sorry, but as callous as I may appear, I have little sympathy to spare here.
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Bobby,
Does your approach reflect the family encouragement and cohesiveness that I know you value for our club, or does it foster a different outcome?
Dan C.
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This appears to me to be a lose/lose situation.
Going by Sebastopolfun's original post and AntoniusRa's final reply, both parties were in error.
The newbie member was obviously looking for the easy way out to identify stamps by using the kindness of members here, instead of attempting to look them up on his own via online sights such as AntoniusRa's or others or thru catalogs....and all for the purpose of selling them.
Fine - sell them. But please don't expect others to do the work for you and then you sit back to reap the profits. Stop taking advantage of the kindness of others for your own personal gain.
And AntoniusRA - understandably frustrated, but a bit harsh with his final reply - which raised the ire of the original poster and also other members here.
Lets let this one go people, and chalk it up to experience.
And let's all try to be - and respond with - a little more kindness toward others.
Okay - off my soapbox now.
Randy
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If you read each of his threads, he never once asked for value of any given stamp. Only for confirmation or identity by Scott #'s. Many he stated that he had looked and couldn't find them or was unsure of his own findings.
I can relate to the OP's situation. I too started collecting at an early age and as such, applied a young persons ways to putting the collection together. That collection sat dormant for many years. Then as a mature adult, I got back into collecting and quickly realized how little I knew and wondered what I might have missed in those earlier days. Under that scenario, the first thing that comes to mind is, is there one of "those stamps" in my collection. There almost never is, but your driven to make sure nonetheless.
Don't get me wrong, I love doing my own research and think others should apply their own efforts also, but quite often I (and others) need a leg up on where to start or confirmation of our findings. There's been a lot of posts concerning the use of the tools at our disposal, isn't this site/club part of those tools. Especially this particular category. If you're going to limit questions by quantity/quality or only to stamps with high value, then it should be stated as such in the title description. Otherwise people who post their whatsit questions should be left with their dignity and not be made to feel like they're stamps are worthless and they are nothing more then a lazy and ignorant pain in the _ _ _!
Again, with all due respect,
WB
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10:18:21am
I don't want to rehash all of the thoughts here, but I do want to share mine as a relatively new collector. I have asked, and likely will continue to ask, my share of dumb questions. The answer to be silly questions always illicits a response of, "Doh! How could I possibly have missed that?" I've never been made to feel my questions were unwanted, but I, too, would be upset if I was. That being said, I always assume I have the cheapest variety of every stamp and I have yet to sell anything from my collection. Generally, my dumb questions are because I missed the ID I was seeking and needed someone to point out my error.
Just my two cents...
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I have read these posts several times, and I think that the outcome is unfortunate.
I hope that you all consider me a reasonable type, and I have the following comment to make.I take AntoniusRa's position and consider it a reasonable case. I don't disagree with his approach - however I think that the phrasing was unfortunate. Reading his post again, and bearing in mind that the supplicant is inexperienced and shy, it is most probable that he has taken the comment to be sharper in tone than he expected,and he has felt rebuffed. Now I am sure that that was not the effect intended.
Sometimes we are all guilty of not appreciating that the responses we make occasionally don't come out in the spirit that they were meant. Maybe a "Perhaps you would like to....." might have diluted the ire that the applicant obviously felt. However that doesn't mean we have to avoid treading on eggs in our replies.
However the response from the supplicant was out of order too. You don't take "your bat and ball home" at the first response you don't like. He should have opened a dialogue if not happy - which would have led to a fuller explanation of what is expected to everyone's satisfaction , and to his further education.
I have dropped the odd clanger myself, and I am not averse to eating a slice of humble pie when I have inadvertently caused offence - as a famous American once said "jaw-jaw is better than war war". However he should have given us the chance to make further constructive comments rather than switching off.
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11:44:20am
"Does your approach reflect the family encouragement and cohesiveness that I know you value for our club, or does it foster a different outcome?"
Fair question, Dan. Let's just say I am generally eager to assist and very tolerant of all manner of questions. However, my patience is eroded by motives sounding in avarice. I suggest you note that the gentleman in question departed as soon as it became apparent his "22 year old" hoard was not particularly valuable and only useful as a stamp collection, which he obviously had no interest in. If not for the comments of Mitchell, he might have stuck around a little longer, but eventually he would have faded into the wood work.
We have a lot of folk who are here strictly to sell, and they do so in an orderly, polite manner without taking advantage of anyone. In fact, many, who are former collectors, provide valuable interactions and interesting comments.
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Dear All,
Let's see if we can distill the positives from this exchange and come to some consensus going forward. Perhaps we can agree that none of us intends to be negative or condescending, but that on occasion we can sound like that.
Can we also agree that we may have different ways of saying things that are acceptable to some and not to others. That doesn't mean that we are wrong, just different in what we are used to hearing and what is acceptable to our ears.
Allow me to speak without the permission of the people named, but Arno,Bobby,AntoniusRa all appreciate and enjoy a straight from the shoulder, no beating around the bush comment/statement. Others may find that a harsh, insensitive approach and take offense when no offense was intended.
If we can agree with that oversimplification, then we need to craft a way to bridge the gap to get the message across without becoming a distraction. At this point let's pause and try to focus on how to do just that.
Thoughts?
Dan C.
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Hi Dan,
I didn't want to respond to this thread any more but it will not die and it seems like Mitchell is being a scape goat. The newbie was out of line with his comments to Mitchell and should be a little more thick skinned and put on his big boy pants.
"Well antoniusra, Why would I want to reference your site, I think your are a un friendly person Coolto say the least. I will leave StampoRama and close my user account because I ask to many ?'s Confused Confused Confused Confused have a pleasent life."
This is the internet and and you shouldn't try to read more into what some one has typed. Ask a question first before you fly off the handle and go on the attack.
I still can't find Mitchell's statement harsh or insensitive. I did find the reaction from the newbie as drama and over reaction. I think the problem was with the newbie and being harsh and insensitive.
Vince
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Hi Vince,
I'm glad you chose to respond. I agree that to try to scapegoat anyone here wouldn't be proper, so your comments are most appreciated. Our focus now is to learn from this to avoid hurting others intentionally or unintentionally.
When our efforts meet with the reaction from the newbie as drama and overreaction, then we need a path to educate the newbie and caution the respondent who has become irritated/out of patience.
You are offering some guidance along those lines when you suggest:
1) We shouldn't try to read more into what some one has typed, and
2)We need to ask questions first before flying off the handle
If the fist 2 suggestions are about what you had in mind, I'd like to suggest a third that I think is implied in what you said:
3)If our response(s) tend to be harsh/insensitive, then we may need to hand the issue off
to avoid being less than we truly are.
If I have misstated or misunderstood your comments, please feel free to correct me.Thoughts?
Thanks,
Dan C.
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Hi Dan,
You understood my post but i'm not sure of your comment "3)If our response(s) tend to be harsh/insensitive, then we may need to hand the issue off
to avoid being less than we truly are." You need to explain that for me.
Vince
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Sure Vince, and thanks for the request for clarification. When dealing in good faith with others, when we are not understood by them there tends to be a rise in emotional content. This can take the form of personal irritation, impatience,harshness with the one we are dealing with.
That emotional distraction interferes with the original intent of offering help/info/support and leaves a bitter taste in both parties mouths.To avoid that sad outcome, when one becomes aware that the distraction is occurring, we need to be able to disengage by handing off to another to continue our original good intentions, now going awry.
This scenario is the one we've just lived through with the newbie, and I believe that we ought to have a path in place to gracefully hand off when the interaction goes off track.
What do you think?
Dan C.
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Hi Dan,
Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense. Right or wrong people can let their emotions take over to fast. I try to let tings go and move on. We can't take this stamp collecting too seriously. There have been responses to some of my posts that caught me off guard but i let it go and come back later to reread the post. Some people have a straight up way of speaking and i like that but I need to remember this is the internet and some responses can be misinterpreted by me or any one else. If I think something is out of line I try to ask what is meant because may not get what some one is saying.
Now to get back to collecting and work on some of my New Year's resolutions!
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Please allow me to point The Finger at ... all of us.
Yes, Sebastopolfun posted six quick queries ... and, BTW, continues to visit the board.
For 3 of his questions, we (collectively) posted the required ID. Period. No how-to-fish lessons.
For 2 of his questions, Mitch posted a specific link to a specific reference page.
For 1 of his questions, one of us posted "The (UPSS) publishes a book of postal stationery entire covers."
In other words, we really did serve-up the fish - cheerfully and immediately, as my Dad used to say - but we offered precious little in the way of fishing lessons.
OTOH, since most of his questions ran to which paper, which color, etc - and were not repetitive - telling him to go fish in a catalog would not have helped very much.
All in all, I think that 'we' did pretty well.
A quick ID is a fair response to a request for a quick ID.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Yes, please....
Randy
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04:57:04pm
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
#1 is either:
Greece Scott #N110d (if engraved)
Greece Scott #N126d (if lithographed)
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04:58:52pm
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
#2 looks to be the Belgian print with clear impression. Greece Scott #68
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Thanks a Bunch Michael..
Again Much Appreciated..
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
As for the second stamp I have to disagree with Michael. It is clear to me that it is a poor impression Athens printing. The Early Hermes heads can often be very difficult to ID. If the stamp you are trying to ID has a readable year on the cancel this can often be helpful. The clear Belgian prints were made from 1886-1888 and the course Athens prints from 1889-95. The date on the stamp is 1892 which was four years after the Belgian prints were last made, which would make it somewhat unlikely that it would be a Belgian print.
However this stamp is so coarse that the date is not really the key factor in the I.D.
See my imperf page of small Hermes Heads HERE. The clear Belgian prints are the stamps at top of the page and the courser Athens prints at the bottom. When comparing the 20 centers at top and bottom it should be easy to see the difference and that your stamp matches the Athens prints, which would make your stamp Scott #94. It should also be noted that there were more printings especially in later years than Scott makes note of. Some Athens printings are much clearer than others and some Belgian prints are coarser than others. Some times it can be difficult to tell one from another but I do not find it difficult with yours.
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06:10:56pm
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
I can accept that. My eyes are sagged out right now!
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Hi,
I agree with AntoniusRa findings and accept..
AntoniusRa Very Nice reference collection
Thank You Michael, Hope your eyes are ready for
The next round of
Can You help me ID this Stamp ?..
Thanks Again everyone and Happy Stamp-in
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
"AntoniusRa Very Nice Thumbs Up reference collection"
My collection site not only shows Greece but most of the country's of the world and their stamps. If you would spend more time reading your catalog and referencing my site, you will not have to ask so many ID questions. By asking so many questions you are forcing other members posts off the board, which is unfortunate at best.
My site is the link below.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Well antoniusra, Why would I want to reference your site, I think your are a un friendly person to say the least. I will leave StampoRama and close my user account because I ask to many ?'s have a pleasent life.
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09:27:51pm
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
"By asking so many questions you are forcing other members posts off the board, which is unfortunate at best."
Stamporama does not have a quota on the number of questions that a member may ask. One of the missions of Stamporama is education. Members asking questions regarding how to ID a stamp helps not only the one asking the question, but also others who may be unaware of certain aspects of identification of a stamp.
There is a point to be made that there is reference material readily available to all collectors to help them with stamp identification and all other aspects of the hobby. Many questions can be answered by taking a few moments and reading the introduction and other reference sections of the catalogs.
Still, we do not censor or prohibit members from asking questions or limiting how many they may ask.
Michael
DB Moderator
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Dear AntoniusRa
On your site, which is a labor of love, you posted the following:
"This site is dedicated to my father Gene R. Ward who introduced me to collecting in 1958.
Also to my boyhood neighbor in Shrub Oak NY, Herman (Pat) Hearst jr."
On our SOR site, you wrote:
"If you would spend more time reading your catalog and referencing my site, you will not have to ask so many ID questions. By asking so many questions you are forcing other members posts off the board, which is unfortunate at best."
Are you being true to what your own mentors taught you? Would they have finger pointed and criticized? Would they be proud of your post?
Just asking!
Dan C.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Dan, Seriously? No I don't have to worry about that. In fact I will probably show it to him tomorrow and I know exactly what he will say, but he doesn't have to. Adios
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
How could this have been dealt with better?
One (new) member asks what even a disinterested observer can judge to be rather too many questions too soon. They are responded to in good faith by several others, but after a while there are one or two reservations and the knowledge-seeker is gently advised to do a bit of research for himself. No obvious effect. Then the advice becomes less gentle, the new guy threatens to take off (and perhaps does), and the dispenser of such advice in turn becomes a target.
For what they are worth, my own sympathies are with the gentle advisers, but then again my whole professional background has been one of self-preparation and research, and that will not apply to everyone.
Could a moderator not have had a quiet word privately with John, presenting the same sort of case as Mitch does above? Would it need to be a moderator?
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Ian, some of us WERE doing precisely as you suggested, long before you suggested it. Back channel advice on how to how to learn more stuff. Of course, back channel, by its very nature, is invisible to most.
New collecors (or guys returning after decades absence) need to be encouraged and shown the ropes. We gave him answers but not tools. "Give a man a fish....."
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09 Jan 2016
08:21:51am
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
I answered several of those "Id requested", however, truth be told, I was on the side that was beginning to become annoyed with the frequency.
From my standpoint, it wasn't the quantity of the posts, it was that most of them were of the sort that were hoping that a very common stamp was in fact the special variety or rare color shade. That sort of thing could go on forever.
It is important for new collectors to understand that the odds are something like 2,000,000,000 : 100 that they have the common stamp of which 2,000,0000,000 were issued, and not one of the 100 varieties or errors of a seemingly similar stamp identified in the catalog with a value of thousands of dollars. (Numbers made up, but you get the idea).
The best advice has been given on this DB many times: "Assume that you have the most common variety until and unless you find evidence otherwise".
Many times I have been offered boyhood collections (particularly of Washington-Franklins) that purported to contain hundreds of thousands of dollars of catalogue value, with each stamp identified as the rarest variety that looked anything like the stamp present. My response is always: "Unmarketable unless accompanied by an independent certificate of authenticity from an organization such as APS or Philatelic Foundation". That usually ends the conversation. If I try to explain the true facts of stamp identification, I typically am viewed as a villain who is attempting to "rip them off".
Roy
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
09 Jan 2016
08:32:18am
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
" "Assume that you have the most common variety until and unless you find evidence otherwise""
That is something that I had to learn as a new collector and it is very sage advice. I now look at every stamp as being common unless there is very compelling evidence that it may not be. This is a learned behavior and can take some time for a new collector to grasp.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Dear AntoniusRa and Guthrum,
David points out "New collecors (or guys returning after decades absence) need to be encouraged and shown the ropes. We gave him answers but not tools. "Give a man a fish....."
As I read the entries it seemed apparent that in good faith you all attempted to impart good, useful information, and after a while you became impatient with the apparent inability/decision on the newbies' part to take over the research/exploration/directions you were offering.
Keeping David's points in mind, were you aware that you may not have been really answering the questions that you were being asked? Granted that you gave correct, practical, detailed answers. But is that what was being asked? In Psychology we know that often the presenting problem is quite different from the underlying issue.
Some of you, in retrospect, mention that perhaps he only wanted cash/value/rarities,etc. All likely, all possible, but where was this actually ascertained? Keep in mind that as a newbie, he himself might not have been aware of the underlying issues.
Your irritation, impatience, and frustration are all understandable, but any harsh reaction on your parts were not and are not the best part of you. So, AntoniusRa, to your question 'Really?' Yes, really.
Can we agree that, in retrospect, we all could have done more?
Best,
Dan C.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Newbie questions are a self-limiting epidemic.
People who like to help will help until they get tired of helping that newbie.
No need to say 'why'.
The newbie who keeps getting answers like 'minimal value' & 'too damaged' & 'utterly common' will get bored of posting stamps to identify.
From both sides, newbie questions are a self-limiting epidemic.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
There are "stamp collectors" and then there are "philatelists". The only real difference is the time spent on the hobby/lifestyle.
Stamp collectors tend to be newbies or those that return after a long period, or those who's lives have just not allowed the time to become a philatelist. Most have the same heart and passion for stamps as philatelists, or at least at the given point where they decide to join an online stamp club. The majority come to sites like this because they want to learn, but sometimes you have to go so far as to teach them "how to learn"...
...and that's where the philatelist comes in. I have the deepest respect for those that reach the highest level within their chosen field, and granted, not everyone has the personality to be a mentor, but that's what all newbie stamp collectors hope to find. Someone willing and able to teach them from the ground up, how to be better at stamp collecting and hopefully one day reach the status of Philatelist themselves. Isn't that the way it should be?
Be a mentor if it's in your nature to be so. If not, that's okay too. But please don't be too quick to judge the newbie or even the average stamp collector. This conversation would have taken a completely different road, had the OP posted a Scott US #1 with perfect margins...and we could've been the lucky ones to see it here first.
Peace amongst the masses,
WB
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Namaste, White Buffalo. You have said what I tried to say, but so much better.
Dan C.
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03:25:23pm
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
The guy just signed up for SoR on Thursday. He probably had no clue that some might consider it a lot of requests for identification. After all, we do have an entire DB topic labeled "Can you help me identify this?". I thought the guy was putting up alot of friendly posts full of "please", "thanks" and smiley face emoticons. My opinion is that the dude shouldn't have been called out like that in public.
-Ernie
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Dan et al, Unfortunately, I don't think most of you guys carefully read my post(s) and got my point. I did carefully write it and in no way apologize for it. The thing I was irritated at was that when I went to the last 30 posts, he had pushed nearly all of the other members stamp related posts off the page. I did not care about the quality or value of the stamps he was showing but just about giving him helpful information so that he can go sell his stamps, that he seems to no longer care about (see new member post). As far as questions being asked;. I think people who ask questions should put as much effort and thought into the questions as they hope to get in return as answers. Many of the questions were so vague as to make it a guessing game. Refer to the "question" on the two Burmese stamps and who do you think would have guessed what the question was in the first place.
As far as paying attention to what I have written, where did I say 'Really"?
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Newbie questions are great and they are encouraged here but as Mitchell points out it has pushed most of the other discussions off the page. I also notice in another thread a member was looking for an ignore button. I just skip those discussions with "identify this for me". I don't have a WW catalog so I can't be much help identifying most WW stamps. I can help with some Scandinavian countries and US. Part of mentoring is to try to get the newbie to use the tools that are available to us all. To just keep asking "identify this for me' does get old.
I suggest check out the library with a batch of stamps and use their catalogs. It will be more educational that way. If after putting some effort in learning about your stamps I am sure there will members here more then happy to help with the identification of your stamps. Please don't leave or stop asking questions but put some effort in your new hobby, it will be more enjoyable.
Vince
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
What if the poor guy just wanted to talk stamps with somebody? Maybe he was a bit over zealous and his method of delivery was off a smidge, but there's no denying his enthusiasm and appreciation for the help. If I see it correctly, he had a total of 6 or 7 questions on identity. Why blindside him? I didn't see any indication of anyone "becoming" annoyed with his questions and I seriously doubt anyone sent him a PM and said, "can I offer a little advise...? Whatever method was used to help the OP and "promote the hobby", it didn't work out real well. Instead, the club just lost a member who hadn't broken a single rule, or at least none that I'm aware of.
I'm sure there was no ill intent and maybe this member was a little too thin skinned, but all too often, it's not what's said, but how it's said that can lead to hard feelings.
WB
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
WhiteBuffalo, In the attempt of keeping the facts straight there were 18 posts from him regarding Id's, not 6 or 7. These were all made on the same day and you can not see them without viewing posts made in the "Last week"
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Dear AntoniusRa,Vinman, and those who appreciated the frank and honest exchange we are having here. As White Buffalo observes, the club may have just lost a member who hadn't broken a single rule. Hopefully we can all avoid that in the future through understanding the impact we may have upon the newbie.
The focus of our exchange is to be the family we wish to be, without hard feelings as a result of impatience. This we can do.As White Buffalo notes " it's not what's said, but how it's said that can lead to hard feelings."
AntoniusRa, would it surprise you to know that your position is backed by other members who have contacted me individually? I mention this to acknowledge that your position stated an excess that needed addressing, and is recognized as such by other members.It is not the position per se that we are discussing, but how it is addressed. For those who prefer a bottom line, no frills,straight from the shoulder observation, your approach is quite acceptable. There are many though who would find that approach unacceptable. So rather than distract from a valid observation because of presentation, moderation in the observation would seem to be called for.
You are correct, by the way, in faulting me for using the term 'really' rather than the term 'seriously' that you used. To my understanding though, they convey the same thought. Am I wrong here?
You and I can agree on this point "As far as questions being asked I think people who ask questions should put as much effort and thought into the questions as they hope to get in return as answers." Our disagreement comes in how one gets the newbie to do just that.
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
18 posts, 6 or 7 threads/questions, who cares?! Academics and number crunching aren't my strong points.(if I have any) My comments were and are aimed only at the end result. Feelings were hurt and a member was lost and I fail to see how that could be viewed as anything else but wrong.
With all due respect,
WB
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Dan, Good thoughts........
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10:19:53pm
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
If posts have been "pushed off" the screen when you click on "Last 30", you can always click on "Last Day" and see them.
Also, getting irritated over someone asking for help IDing alot of stamps makes no sense. Just because someone asks for ID help is not an obligation on any one person to answer the question. If you don't feel like doing it, then don't do it.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
I just reread this topic and Mitchell's response on 07 Jan 2016
06:07:40pm it was very informative and took time to look up this informaton for Sebastopolfun. I think Sebastopolfun's reaction after all the help he has received was a bit of an overreaction.
Vince
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
vinman is correct. Getting that many answers to that many questions and skulking off because one guy got impatient seems a bit much.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
10 Jan 2016
07:20:18am
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
" .... If not, that's okay too. But please don't be too quick to judge the newbie or even the average stamp collector. ....
There is another point that is or has been missed.
In college, I discovered and observed that every time I asked a question there were two or more classmates who were just as puzzled but too shy to step up and ask. Shyness is not my strong suit. Several of the better teachers advised me to not hold back because of the tendency of some students to be wary of appearing to not have understood and thus lose face among peers.
Later in life when teaching, I encouraged questions myself and observed the same situation.
I have often quoted my motto for questions;
" The only dumb question is the unasked question."
We may speculate as to whether the new member may have been driven away, but to that, consider the possibility that other newbies, some future members perusing the discussion topics, who will feel that they are not going to be treated politely if they ask a basic question. Actually there is another stamp site where they can go if they wish to experience that treatment.
Actually, to be as frank and forthcoming as Mitch was, I consider his post rude and his attitude elitist.
Had I picked up on this earlier, I'd have sent the new member a polite and chatty private message, as I have done several times before with new members explaining how to search for answers, or whatever I felt would help him or her along.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
10 Jan 2016
09:04:33am
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Charlie, I do not disagree with you often, but here I must. The first time a "simple" question is asked (one to which the answer could be easily ascertained with a minimum effort), I can swallow my irritation and answer politely. However, once shown the pathway to follow for answers to simple questions, I find it increasingly difficult when the same type of questions are offered time and again with no apparent effort on the part of the asker to find the answers himself. This is especially irritating when the asker of questions is obviously seeking confirmation of the fact he is in possession of very valuable stamps, when, in fact, in every instance even the slightest investigative care would have positively demonstrated otherwise.
I have tried not to respond to this particular issue, but I am tired of hearing about the self avowed "newbie" whose sole purpose (as stated in his member introduction) was to sell stamps.
"I am from Northern California and just opened my collection of US and worldwide recently which I have had stored for about 22 years....I will be posting stamps for help with identification color varities help. I will be selling my stamps individually **and ones I post will be for sale also**."
Sorry, but as callous as I may appear, I have little sympathy to spare here.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Bobby,
Does your approach reflect the family encouragement and cohesiveness that I know you value for our club, or does it foster a different outcome?
Dan C.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
This appears to me to be a lose/lose situation.
Going by Sebastopolfun's original post and AntoniusRa's final reply, both parties were in error.
The newbie member was obviously looking for the easy way out to identify stamps by using the kindness of members here, instead of attempting to look them up on his own via online sights such as AntoniusRa's or others or thru catalogs....and all for the purpose of selling them.
Fine - sell them. But please don't expect others to do the work for you and then you sit back to reap the profits. Stop taking advantage of the kindness of others for your own personal gain.
And AntoniusRA - understandably frustrated, but a bit harsh with his final reply - which raised the ire of the original poster and also other members here.
Lets let this one go people, and chalk it up to experience.
And let's all try to be - and respond with - a little more kindness toward others.
Okay - off my soapbox now.
Randy
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
If you read each of his threads, he never once asked for value of any given stamp. Only for confirmation or identity by Scott #'s. Many he stated that he had looked and couldn't find them or was unsure of his own findings.
I can relate to the OP's situation. I too started collecting at an early age and as such, applied a young persons ways to putting the collection together. That collection sat dormant for many years. Then as a mature adult, I got back into collecting and quickly realized how little I knew and wondered what I might have missed in those earlier days. Under that scenario, the first thing that comes to mind is, is there one of "those stamps" in my collection. There almost never is, but your driven to make sure nonetheless.
Don't get me wrong, I love doing my own research and think others should apply their own efforts also, but quite often I (and others) need a leg up on where to start or confirmation of our findings. There's been a lot of posts concerning the use of the tools at our disposal, isn't this site/club part of those tools. Especially this particular category. If you're going to limit questions by quantity/quality or only to stamps with high value, then it should be stated as such in the title description. Otherwise people who post their whatsit questions should be left with their dignity and not be made to feel like they're stamps are worthless and they are nothing more then a lazy and ignorant pain in the _ _ _!
Again, with all due respect,
WB
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
10 Jan 2016
10:18:21am
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
I don't want to rehash all of the thoughts here, but I do want to share mine as a relatively new collector. I have asked, and likely will continue to ask, my share of dumb questions. The answer to be silly questions always illicits a response of, "Doh! How could I possibly have missed that?" I've never been made to feel my questions were unwanted, but I, too, would be upset if I was. That being said, I always assume I have the cheapest variety of every stamp and I have yet to sell anything from my collection. Generally, my dumb questions are because I missed the ID I was seeking and needed someone to point out my error.
Just my two cents...
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10:33:31am
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
I have read these posts several times, and I think that the outcome is unfortunate.
I hope that you all consider me a reasonable type, and I have the following comment to make.I take AntoniusRa's position and consider it a reasonable case. I don't disagree with his approach - however I think that the phrasing was unfortunate. Reading his post again, and bearing in mind that the supplicant is inexperienced and shy, it is most probable that he has taken the comment to be sharper in tone than he expected,and he has felt rebuffed. Now I am sure that that was not the effect intended.
Sometimes we are all guilty of not appreciating that the responses we make occasionally don't come out in the spirit that they were meant. Maybe a "Perhaps you would like to....." might have diluted the ire that the applicant obviously felt. However that doesn't mean we have to avoid treading on eggs in our replies.
However the response from the supplicant was out of order too. You don't take "your bat and ball home" at the first response you don't like. He should have opened a dialogue if not happy - which would have led to a fuller explanation of what is expected to everyone's satisfaction , and to his further education.
I have dropped the odd clanger myself, and I am not averse to eating a slice of humble pie when I have inadvertently caused offence - as a famous American once said "jaw-jaw is better than war war". However he should have given us the chance to make further constructive comments rather than switching off.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
10 Jan 2016
11:44:20am
re: Greece Can You help ID ?
"Does your approach reflect the family encouragement and cohesiveness that I know you value for our club, or does it foster a different outcome?"
Fair question, Dan. Let's just say I am generally eager to assist and very tolerant of all manner of questions. However, my patience is eroded by motives sounding in avarice. I suggest you note that the gentleman in question departed as soon as it became apparent his "22 year old" hoard was not particularly valuable and only useful as a stamp collection, which he obviously had no interest in. If not for the comments of Mitchell, he might have stuck around a little longer, but eventually he would have faded into the wood work.
We have a lot of folk who are here strictly to sell, and they do so in an orderly, polite manner without taking advantage of anyone. In fact, many, who are former collectors, provide valuable interactions and interesting comments.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Dear All,
Let's see if we can distill the positives from this exchange and come to some consensus going forward. Perhaps we can agree that none of us intends to be negative or condescending, but that on occasion we can sound like that.
Can we also agree that we may have different ways of saying things that are acceptable to some and not to others. That doesn't mean that we are wrong, just different in what we are used to hearing and what is acceptable to our ears.
Allow me to speak without the permission of the people named, but Arno,Bobby,AntoniusRa all appreciate and enjoy a straight from the shoulder, no beating around the bush comment/statement. Others may find that a harsh, insensitive approach and take offense when no offense was intended.
If we can agree with that oversimplification, then we need to craft a way to bridge the gap to get the message across without becoming a distraction. At this point let's pause and try to focus on how to do just that.
Thoughts?
Dan C.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Hi Dan,
I didn't want to respond to this thread any more but it will not die and it seems like Mitchell is being a scape goat. The newbie was out of line with his comments to Mitchell and should be a little more thick skinned and put on his big boy pants.
"Well antoniusra, Why would I want to reference your site, I think your are a un friendly person Coolto say the least. I will leave StampoRama and close my user account because I ask to many ?'s Confused Confused Confused Confused have a pleasent life."
This is the internet and and you shouldn't try to read more into what some one has typed. Ask a question first before you fly off the handle and go on the attack.
I still can't find Mitchell's statement harsh or insensitive. I did find the reaction from the newbie as drama and over reaction. I think the problem was with the newbie and being harsh and insensitive.
Vince
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Hi Vince,
I'm glad you chose to respond. I agree that to try to scapegoat anyone here wouldn't be proper, so your comments are most appreciated. Our focus now is to learn from this to avoid hurting others intentionally or unintentionally.
When our efforts meet with the reaction from the newbie as drama and overreaction, then we need a path to educate the newbie and caution the respondent who has become irritated/out of patience.
You are offering some guidance along those lines when you suggest:
1) We shouldn't try to read more into what some one has typed, and
2)We need to ask questions first before flying off the handle
If the fist 2 suggestions are about what you had in mind, I'd like to suggest a third that I think is implied in what you said:
3)If our response(s) tend to be harsh/insensitive, then we may need to hand the issue off
to avoid being less than we truly are.
If I have misstated or misunderstood your comments, please feel free to correct me.Thoughts?
Thanks,
Dan C.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Hi Dan,
You understood my post but i'm not sure of your comment "3)If our response(s) tend to be harsh/insensitive, then we may need to hand the issue off
to avoid being less than we truly are." You need to explain that for me.
Vince
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Sure Vince, and thanks for the request for clarification. When dealing in good faith with others, when we are not understood by them there tends to be a rise in emotional content. This can take the form of personal irritation, impatience,harshness with the one we are dealing with.
That emotional distraction interferes with the original intent of offering help/info/support and leaves a bitter taste in both parties mouths.To avoid that sad outcome, when one becomes aware that the distraction is occurring, we need to be able to disengage by handing off to another to continue our original good intentions, now going awry.
This scenario is the one we've just lived through with the newbie, and I believe that we ought to have a path in place to gracefully hand off when the interaction goes off track.
What do you think?
Dan C.
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense. Right or wrong people can let their emotions take over to fast. I try to let tings go and move on. We can't take this stamp collecting too seriously. There have been responses to some of my posts that caught me off guard but i let it go and come back later to reread the post. Some people have a straight up way of speaking and i like that but I need to remember this is the internet and some responses can be misinterpreted by me or any one else. If I think something is out of line I try to ask what is meant because may not get what some one is saying.
Now to get back to collecting and work on some of my New Year's resolutions!
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Please allow me to point The Finger at ... all of us.
Yes, Sebastopolfun posted six quick queries ... and, BTW, continues to visit the board.
For 3 of his questions, we (collectively) posted the required ID. Period. No how-to-fish lessons.
For 2 of his questions, Mitch posted a specific link to a specific reference page.
For 1 of his questions, one of us posted "The (UPSS) publishes a book of postal stationery entire covers."
In other words, we really did serve-up the fish - cheerfully and immediately, as my Dad used to say - but we offered precious little in the way of fishing lessons.
OTOH, since most of his questions ran to which paper, which color, etc - and were not repetitive - telling him to go fish in a catalog would not have helped very much.
All in all, I think that 'we' did pretty well.
A quick ID is a fair response to a request for a quick ID.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Greece Can You help ID ?
Yes, please....
Randy
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