Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I was going to toss the stamps. Why risk putting the stamps in my album and having this spread to other stamps? Then I decided to try an experiment.
I took the stamp with the worst staining, and went to the kitchen. I looked for a bottle of bleach, but we had none. I looked through the cabinet for possible other cleaning agents. I found a bottle of clear ammonia.
I got a small cup saucer and placed the stamp face down on it. The stamp actually fit in the little indentation where the cup rests. I then poured the ammonia full strength onto the stamp. I poured only enough ammonia to the point where the stamp began to float. I could see the ammonia immediately begin to go to work. The paper began to turn white (its normal color), and the staining began to fade away. I also could see the front of the stamp start to show through the back of the paper. I thought this was an indication of something going wrong, but that was not the case.
I picked up the saucer and gently sloshed the ammonia around to circulate the liquid all over both sides of the stamp. I did this for about 30 seconds. I then gave the stamp a good rinse bath in cold water. I dried the stamp. All of the stains were gone, and the paper was returned to its normal white color. I checked it against other stamps from the set. I saw no difference in paper color, or stamp image. The stamp was clean. I repeated this process with the other stamp, and got the same results. Looks like the ammonia remedies this problem.
A couple of things:
- Do not get the saucer too close to your nose due to the fumes.
- I tried this with diluted ammonia (50% ammonia and 50% water), but the solution did not clean the stamp.
- I only tried this on two engraved stamps, so I do not know how stamps printed in other ways will react to the ammonia.
These are two stamps that I would have normally thrown away. Now they have been added to my collection.
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There is an American Institute of Conservation document that discusses this at http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/pcc/13_foxing.pdf. It seems to suggest that it works, but notes that the Ph (acidity) is quite high.
On another website there is a discussion that suggests ammonia works with foxed litho prints. However, there is some suggestion that it affects the paper itself and may lead to long-term deterioration.
It may be that wider searching among the views of museum and library conservation specialists may show what is best.
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-12-26 21:12:20)
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The way I see it, without the "treatment" the stamp is toast anyway. If there's paper deterioration later on, well, it happened later than sooner without the "treatment".
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Hi Michael;
At least there is a good chance that the mold that caused the foxing will not be able to revive later to harm your other stamps. So what you did was a good idea, especially since the stamps would have been no good in that condition.
If the process you devised causes the stamps to be exposed to an acid environment then next time as a safeguard use a rinse of dissolved baking soda, before the fresh water bath, and make the last rinse about 45-60 minutes minimum.
When I used to sell cheap coins that little cash value, I cleaned with a recipe of water and vinegar I found on the internet. Then they recommended a baking soda rinse, and then a fresh water soaking. This produced a beautiful result, and collectors could care less for coins that are not worth anything.
So congrats for having the courage to try something, others would not have done, and for sharing that with the rest of us. I'll keep that in mind as I process lots of old stamps. You should message Lisa about your results, as she has a mess of moldy stuff and she has an allergy for anything moldy.
Keep on stampin'....
TuskenRaider
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11:26:52pm
Thank you, Tusken for thinking of me and Michael for posting this. I've debated the use of ammonia or vinegar, both will take care of mold. However, we are talking about thousands of stamps. I'll keep thinking!
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I also did this on an unused New Hebrides stamp that was a dark brown on the back. It lightened up, and alot of the toning and foxing disappeared, but not all of it by far. The gum was of course disturbed, but not totally gone.
All of the stamps that I have tried this on thus far have been engraved stamps. It looks like 30 seconds in a full strength ammonia bath is long enough. The ink starts to soften and run. I did a little timing experiment. Sacrificed that stamp for the trial.
If you try this, just be careful.
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Tusken...
When I was in the Army we were required to make sure the buttons on our uniform were shiny.We found the best way of doing that to drop them into Coca Cola over night.In the morning they were spotless.Should work for coins also.
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Charlie
How long ago were you in the army? In former years some of the contents in Coca Cola were quite noxious ( Coca leaves for one). I would suggest that more modern health and hygiene concerns mean that Coca Cola is not now so efficacious for removing gunge ( think the lining of your stomach !!! ).
However I remember as a Scout Leader passing on the info. to the boys that should you inadvertently swallow river or other "dubious" water during an activity you should drink Coca Cola as an immediate antidote ( and it had to be Coke not any other sort of Cola - and I am sure that the person offering the advice had no commercial axe to grind ), and it certainly was a serious statement...nothing to do with stamps mind!!
Malcolm
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Ah, Coca-Cola.
My father & uncles had a liquor store. Shop owners in New York were very careful to keep the sidewalks in front of their store free of litter; the law still requires everyone (home owners, too) to clear the sidewalk in front of their property of snow & ice within hours of the end of a storm.
One time (1950s), someone dropped a family-size bottle of Coca-Cola (glass, in those days) right in front of the store. It stained the sidewalk and, since they were out there every morning - more often in the winter - they got to see that stain, year after year.
None of them every touched the stuff after that.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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I left the Army in '68 after my 2 years National Service.
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"These are two stamps that I would have normally thrown away. Now they have been added to my collection."
The key question of course is: would you recommend this as a general treatment against foxing? Also for stamps that one might not toss so easily?
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I hardly have any stamps with foxing as I have always thrown them away. The stamps from this exercise came out of a batch of stamps I bought from approvals here. They weren't described as having problems. Anyway, I thought why not try something to see if it works. If not, no loss, as I would have tossed the stamps anyway.
So, I had two stamps that came clean with this process. I would describe the foxing on those as being light to moderate. The third stamp had very heavy foxing, and that came about 50% clean. All three were engraved, and I didn't have any problems with the ink as long as I didn't leave the stamps in the ammonia more than 30 seconds.
I don't know how stamps that are printed by other than engraving would react to this treatment. If I find one, I'll give it a try and see.
For me, it seems like a plausible treatment. I do agree that the stamp should get a bath, as others have stated, in a solution that will neutralize any acid absorbed by the stamp paper.
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OK - the chemist in me has been activated. There have been some things posted here and on another thread about mold that really are not correct.
The term pH is the measure of the hydrogen ion in an aqueous solution. (That's not the strict definition, but a practical one.) The hydrogen ion (H+) is what makes an acid an acid. The pH is the negative logarithm (base 10) of that concentration. Pure water has a pH of 7 - anything higher than that has fewer hydrogen ions and hence is less acidic - it's basic. Remember, the scale is the negative of the concentration, so a higher number means a smaller H+ concentration and less acidity. The pH of a solution can range from something like -1.9 (yes, pH may be a negative number) to more than 14. A negative pH solution is a strong mineral acid - hydrochloric, nitric, sulfuric, etc. Most of those are industrial use only, but muriatic acid (old name for hydrochloric) sold for household use has a pH of -0.5. Solutions with a pH of 13-14+ are very strong bases - caustics. Some household chemicals (Clorox, for example) get up to a pH of 12.6. Anything beyond that is industrial.
One more point – pH apples to aqueous solutions only. A non-aqueous system simply cannot have a pH. Ronsonol and isopropyl alcohol used for watermark detection have no pH and do not affect the acidity level of stamps in any way.
If you use ammonia to cure foxing or kill mold, don’t worry about any latent effects. Household ammonia has a pH of 11 – 12. It’s not an acid – it’s a base, and a fairly strong one at that. And it’s not really ammonia anyway; it’s really ammonia water or ammonia solution. Ammonia is a gas – NH3. It dissolves in water, but it’s very loosely held – it wants to come out. The strong odor you smell when you open a bottle is the gaseous ammonia coming from the solution. Exposed to the atmosphere, all the ammonia quickly gasifies. The only thing that would keep it around any length of time is water – it has a slight affinity to water. If you soak your stamps in ammonia, let them air dry. If they are dry, the ammonia is gone. While it’s on the stamps, it may neutralize some acidity present, but that should be only positive. The last thing you should do is try to neutralize any acid present – there isn’t any, and anything you do would have a negative effect.
The one caveat is inks. There have probably been hundreds, if not thousands, of ink formulations used over the history of stamps. Some may be adversely affected by ammonia. I can’t think of any ink formulations that would be disturbed by a fairly strong base, but there may be some.
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That's interesting.
In the same light, what would you say about using a bleach like Clorox instead of ammonia? (We don't have any bleach at the house right now. That's why I tried ammonia.)
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11:23:14pm
How can isopropyl alcohol not have a pH if it is aqueous? You seem to imply that it's not.
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The typical household rubbing alcohol is a 70/30 mixture of isopropyl alcohol and water. It's a mixture - not a solution. Isopropyl alcohol is miscible in water, but not soluble in water.
For the pH of water to change, something must be dissolved in it to give the hydrogen (H+) or hydroxyl (OH-) ions to change the balance to either the acid or base side. There must be an aqueous solution, not a mixture.
Isopropanol's formula is C3H7OH - that OH is a hydroxyl unit. If it were soluble in water, those OHs would go into solution and a 70/30 mix would be an extremely strong base - very caustic. But those OHs stay firmly bound to a carbon and there is no solution.
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Time for bleach.
First and foremost: If you want to try bleach, DO NOT use bleach with any other household chemical. Bleach plus household ammonia gives a compound that can cause serious lung/respiratory system damage. Bleach plus household peroxide can go BOOM - rather spectacularly. Different things can happen with other chemicals, most of them bad. Conditions and concentrations have to be just right for some of these to happen, but don’t find out what those are the hard way.
Ammonia and bleach are both high pH materials used for cleaning, but that's about where the similarity ends. Ammonia is a gas that dissipates rapidly. Bleach is made by dissolving a solid (sodium or calcium hypochlorite) in water, some of which stays behind after the water evaporates. Ammonia acts a lot like soaps/detergents. Bleach causes chemical reactions.
There are two worries with using bleach to tackle foxing. One is that bleach + rust = more rust. Some papers on foxing say that iron (in the form of iron oxide, otherwise known as rust) is the cause of foxing. If that is the case, bleach may make the problem worse. The other is inks. Bleach attacks a lot of stains, and when you get down to basics, ink on paper is a controlled stain. With all the inks used over the years, there are almost certainly some that would be attacked by bleach.
All in all, bleach is probably not the way to go – even though it does have the side benefit of killing mold.
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Here's an update on my use of ammonia to get foxing off of stamps.
I left a stamp in the solution for several minutes to see if there would be any damage to the ink. There was none.
I have also used ammonia on a lithographed stamp. There was no problem with the ink.
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Michael,
You beat me to it. While putting the Xmas decorations in the basement, I dug out some watch glasses (chemist-speak for saucers), and I went out today and bought a bottle of household ammonia.
I've looked through my duplicates for some to sacrifice for the cause. I'm trying to find ones from older stamps that have visually different ink appearances or might come from different technologies, and I'm also looking for different colors - the pigments in the inks may react differently. So far I've found an older Japanese stamp in red. one from the Russian revolutionary period in green,and one from a Portuguese colony that has violet for the main color plus black for colony and value plus a black surcharge plus a green Republica overprint. I'm going to pick out three more (I have six watch glasses) and then essentially repeat what you have done.
I really don't expect any issues, but the greater number and more varied types tried will add to the confidence level. I'll post the results here.
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I haven't tried a photogravure printed stamp yet.
I am thinking of getting a small, clear plastic storage container with a lid, and use that to slosh the stamp around in. Not sure if the ammonia will melt the plastic, now especially since you said you are going to use glass cases.
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While not every plastic is the same, polymers share certain commonalities, and they do sell ammonia in plastic bottles.
I'd use something dishwasher safe, and not worry.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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You would be OK with any household plastic. Avoid the foamed disposable stuff. I went to watch glasses because I had them and they would typically be used for experiments like this in a lab.
The real reason is that I will avoid having someone else in the house saying, "Just what do you think you're doing with my dishes?"
Hope to get this done over the weekend.
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Yes, I did get that question a couple of times about the dishes... It didn't stop me from doing my experiment, however. Couldn't stop something that was already in progress, right?
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More on ammonia.
Ammonia looks like a good candidate for cleaning stamps. It will not harm any standard paper and since ammonia in water is basic, acid residue level in the stamps cleaned could only lowered if affected at all. There is the possibility that some inks/pigments might be affected, even though known ink chemistries show nothing should happen. To make a quick survey, I took six stamps of older issues (ranging from 1883 to 1942) as test specimens. These were different colors and different issuing countries, and two had overprints. These were all used and all were visually clean – did not want any soiling that might be removed into the ammonia solution that could be interpreted as ink loss.
One stamp was placed in each of six watch glasses. Approximately 15 mL of household ammonia was added to each watch glass, covering the stamps. The stamps were agitated within the liquid using tongs every minute for five minutes. At the end of five minutes, the stamps were removed and placed on absorbent paper. The liquid remaining (almost all water by that time) was completely clear – no sign of any color or bleed from the stamps. The stamps (after drying) looked the same as when they were first placed in the watch glass.
This is by no means definitive, but it does indicate that ammonia as a cleaning agent is going to work on almost everything out there with no problem. If you want to try to clean a valuable stamp, find a low value stamp from the same issuer from the same time period – from the same series if possible. If that one cleans up OK, you are almost certainly good to go.
One more comment – we’re talking about clear ammonia here. So-called cloudy ammonia has detergent additives, and while that’s not going to hurt the stamp, an extra rinse or two may be needed. Obviously, don’t go for the ones labeled ‘lemon scented’ or something similar. Luckily, you want the cheapest version – plain old ammonia.
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What were the printing methods for the stamps you tested?
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Foxing, shmoxing ... will ammonia lift PSA (Pressure Sensitive Adhesive) stamps?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who found only lemon-scented ammonia at Home Depot)
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They covered litho, typo, and gravure. I was not too worried about the basic ink constituent variations across different printing processes - they don't vary that much. Dyes and pigments are another story.
I ran into the same problem with getting clear ammonia. My local grocery store had the lemon-scented only. I found clear at a Dollar General nearby. This weekend, I saw clear at Walmart. It was in gallon size, and if I remember correctly, it was less than $2.
I don't think ammonia will do anything to PSA. From what I know of those formulations, there's nothing for the ammonia to affect.
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So, can any British reader advise me where I might find this wonderful ammonia, which seems so easy to come by elsewhere? Do British supermarkets actually sell this stuff?
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Why, I was within a stone's throw of the place this very morning! Thank you!
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This was a great thread! I really appreciate the experimentation Michael and dollhaus conducted.
Michael mentioned gum being disturbed in one instance. Were all the other ammonia experiments conducted on stamps without gum?
Also, is this expected to be a permanent solution or is the effect of the ammonia bath likely to dissipate over time? If it's not likely to be permanent, would you, Michael and dollhaus, be willing to report on any changes over time?
Thank you for your contributions to this topic!
Tom
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Alas, 'The Range' at Romford Brewery (see three posts above) had no idea what liquid ammonia was. A youth enquired why I needed it (is it a component for IED making?) and I did not have the nerve to confess in public that it was to remove foxing from postage stamps.
I expect it has a UK brand name. I did not know what, though.
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Tom, since ammonia is infused in water, any gummed stamp immersed in the solution will sustain gum damage.
Most of the stamps I experimented on were used, but I did some localized "dabbing" on unused stamps that had just a tiny spot or two. The foxing was noticeably reduced, but not eliminated since the amount dabbed onto the area was minuscule and I didn't leave it on for too long a time. The areas that were dabbed did sustain gum damage, even though I did not rinse the stamp afterwards.
I wouldn't be able to track this since almost all of the stamps used were from the damaged pile and not part of my collection. The few that were, I don't recall which ones I did.
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Michael,
You know me! I hate to throw anything away!
If we have any unadulterated ammonia here, I'm tempted to experiment with some low value gummed stamps and see what happens. Given that the stained stamps are already damaged, whether gummed or not, loss of (or damage to) the gum along with stain removal isn't going to reduce the usefulness or value of those stamps! If the treatment is relatively permanent, then the stamps may have a little value once again.
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To test the impact on color, you might cut a dozen or so stamps in half and only treat one side of each, keeping the other side as a control. When all the treatments are done, just put them back side by side for comparison, scanning, etc.
-Steve
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Lindner has "mildew stain remover" in two bottles, ERNI A and ERNI B to be used together. B is to rinse. I have these products but honestly haven't used them yet.
The are not really "mildew" stain removers but more accurately mold/fungi stain removers. Foxing from metals affecting paper I assume are not addressed by these products.
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Great information here! For mint stamps, I wonder if using a "StampLift" would work? Using the ammonia to soak the pads and set the stamp face down on the grill, then closing the box. I'm thinking that the ammonia would come out of solution, circulate around the stamp and dissolve the foxing while not adversely affecting the gum. Is this a possibility?
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Terry, that's an interesting idea. You want to give it a try and let us know?
The gum would definitely remain. Not sure if it would become damaged, though.
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Let me see if I can find some mint stamps showing signs of foxing. I'll let you know.
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An interesting idea, Terry! I don't have a Stamplift and we don't seem to have any unadulterated ammonia in the house. I'll wait to see if Terry can do this test. If it shows promise, I may have to buy a Stamplift and try this.
This would become another important item to add to stamp sale descriptions, although I suppose many don't bother.
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What's a stamplift? I've got some fluid called Stamplift which is obviously not what you are talking about.
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Terry is talking about a commercial device that acts like a sweat box.
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Is this it?
I've never seen one before.
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This is the "StampLift" device. They cost about $5 to $10. I know that Subway sells them.
There are sponges secured in the top and bottom covers with a center grid on which to lay the stamp. The sponges are normally soaked in water. Then, when the cover is closed, it "sweats" the gum attachment to paper to remove stamps from envelope pieces. Since the the liquid does not flow over the stamp, a large majority of the original gum can be retained with this process.
My suggestion would be to soak the sponges in ammonia and lay the foxed stamp face down on the grid.
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I've just had a look around. These devices are not available in the UK (and possibly even Europe). It's no surprise then that I hadn't heard of these before.
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If you are going to try the Stamplift approach, I'd suggest a VERY well ventilated space - ammonia fumes aren't pleasant in the least.
I've done the ammonia soaks before and have found no ill effect on the stamps - I've checked back several months later just to be sure. It's amazing how clean you can get toned/foxed stamps in a very short period of time.
Personally, I'm not certain if ammonia will work with the Stamplift. I know when I do an ammonia soak, there is a dirt residue which is generated. The ammonia seems to act as a cleanser. If you do give it a try, I would be more than interested in the results, though.
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WOW - this really was an interesting thread - thank you all for contributions and 'ground breaking' research. Is there anything like a Nobel prize for stamp conservation? 
Now - one question from me - has anybody tested the ammonia trick on chalky paper stamps, e.g. semi-classic GB empire? I know the colors on chalky paper easily get disturbed in water - what about a quick bath in ammonia?
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Hi Ningpo;
There are probably lots of areas where it is not possible to buy a stamplift locally or would cost too much postage to buy from overseas.
One can be easily be made at home. All that is needed is a shallow plastic storage container, some sponge material cut to size, some screen cut to size, with tabs bent at 90º angles for legs. Many stamp collectors from the early 20th century made their own that way, using tins that cookies or chocolates came in.
Just breezin' up....
TuskenRaider
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Thanks for the tip Tuskenraider. In fact your comment about the cost of obtaining one from overseas has been borne out.
Before you posted that, I had been mulling over a similar idea. Something like the size of an old tobacco tin but in plastic (like the Stamplift). I have a lot of miniature drilling/boring tools, so I could fashion a grid.
Or,
I could always use one of these 1800's solid silver gilt vinaigrettes. Would save a lot of messing about. 
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Hi Ningpo;
I'm just guessing here, but I don't know if that is enough holes to get the job done. I think the trick is to get the fastest results, before the gum gets too wet or disturbed. Also silver is a highly reactive metal (tarnishes easily, as does copper), and plastic might be better.
Do some research first an you should find something that can be trimmed to fit. Try hardware stores or building centers. Window screen can be had in vinyl, but is kinda floppy. It could probably be stiffened with a homemade frame/leg thingy to glue the screen onto.
There may be members on here who obtained one from buying an estate collection. Make an ad in Discussion Board want ads, to see if members have one they don't need. You could probably get a much better deal on price/postage that way.
And just tackin' back....
TuskenRaider
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Sweat boxes used to be widely available in the UK.
I just checked my old (British) "Observer's Book of Postage Stamps" from 1967 and it refers to them.
I bet they would have been for sale in Vera Trinder's in London until it closed.
I really miss that shop! 
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"I bet they would have been for sale in Vera Trinder's in London until it closed."
Most probably. How I miss that shop. I used to buy those really strong cardboard boxes, which I need more of and can't get.
By the way Tuskenraider, I was being a bit mischievous about the vinaigrette. The one I posted is worth £300; and no, I don't own it. I had wondered if its design had influenced the Stamplift box, or others. These had small sponges under the perforated plate, soaked with some fragrance to 'revive' the genteel owner from the London Town miasma.
Same sort of principle really.
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I was trying to get rid of foxing on a couple stamps today and checking watermarks at the same time.
The ammonia smelled terrible, and the lighter fluid was making me woozy.
I thought it might work if I used my BBQ lighter to gently burn off the mould.
Uh, bad idea. Please don't try this at home...
Dave.
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I know bleach was discussed earlier and not recommended, but I had about 50 DDR stamps from the late 70's and early 80's that had extensive foxing. I gave them a 15 second soak in pure household bleach, followed by a 1 minute soak in fresh water and it worked great. After about 3 months there has been no return of foxing and no adverse effects of any kind. I did do a couple of samples of different types before proceeding, but it seems to have worked fine on all of them. I'd always recommend doing a trial run on like stamps, but from my own experience, bleach works quite well on at least some.
WB
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Since now we're talking about bleach and ammonia in the same thread, do not mix bleach and ammonia as the result is toxic.
I am very skeptical about using full-strength household bleach as a preservation method for stamps. Without a doubt bleach will remove some of the color and can affect the cancel. Certainly we know it is used by fraudsters to remove cancels. I have some examples and the cancel is not the only area affected because usually the stamp design itself is lightened around the area where the cancel was removed.
Supposedly, bleach can also be difficult to remove from paper, once applied, despite rinsing. This can cause deterioration over time especially when exposed to humidity.
Killing mold and removing stains from foxing are two different things.
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I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm only posting the results that I had. When I lay the bleached stamps side by side with unbleached, like stamps, I can see no marked difference between the printing or the cancels. I will keep an eye on them and watch for future damage, but as it stands right now, the bleach seems to have worked fine.
I do agree fully, that mixing chemicals of any kind can be a recipe for disaster and also would never recommend it.
WB
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Here are the before and after images of my latest stamp laundry. The first image is the eBay image, the second is my scan. Not perfection but at least the overall colour is now correct:
EDIT
Forgot to show the backs. As you can see, the before image was a piece of 'Buttzville Bronco' and now;
well I could almost eat my dinner off it.
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The hazards of using bleach in the presence of other household chemicals is real. You can avoid such hazards by using bleach in isolation.
Ammonia and bleach are two ways to clean things - but they do it in different ways. Without getting into something too technical, ammonia acts a lot like a detergent. It makes weak chemical bonds with gunk/dirt/whatever. This in turn makes the gunk water soluble, and it rinses away with the water carrying the ammonia. Bleach actually chemically attacks whatever it comes in contact with and causes a chemical reaction. That's good for getting out stains that detergents (and ammonia) would not touch. That includes ink stains - you can read Clorox's comments on line about how to remove ink stains using Clorox. But think about that - stamps are printed with ink, overprints are in ink (possibly not the same type as used for the stamp), and cancellations are in ink (very probably not the same type as used for the stamps).
Modern printing inks are most likely not susceptible to attack from bleach. But the farther back in time you go, the more likely that the inks would be attacked by bleach. I think some of the old aniline-based inks would be pushovers for bleach. This would be especially so for overprints/surcharges made locally - the inks used for those may well have been a generation behind in ink technology. Cancellations fall in the same ballpark.
You can probably get by using bleach on anything after about 1950 on as long as what you want to clean is not overprinted and you don't care about the cancellation. Even then, you may get get a very light color change in the stamp's ink. From about 1985 on, inks should resist bleach pretty well.
You can certainly use bleach for cleaning a stamp. Just don't be surprised if your 1912 2-cent carmine rose comes out pink. Red inks are notorious for their instability.
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Dollhaus said:
"This weekend, I saw clear at Walmart. It was in gallon size, and if I remember correctly, it was less than $2."
The label on the clearest ammonia I found at Walmart listed surfactant as the only additional ingredient. They were half-gallon jugs. Should I avoid this one and continue searching for one with no ingredients?
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Ok with surfactants - just avoid the cloudy ones (detergent added) and the smelly ones (some unknown lemon-scented stuff added).
A surfactant is added at very low levels. It reduces the surface tension of water so the liquid 'wets' a surface easier. That's only going to help. Assuming the manufacturer is using one of the cheap, mass-produced surfactants, the surfactant itself degrades quickly in air and doesn't leave anything behind. That's only logical - if they're making the ammonia for cleaning, they wouldn't do too well if the ammonia left a residue behind.
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Great! Thanks for clearing that up!
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A question regarding immersion alternatives. Michael said,
"I did some localized "dabbing" on unused stamps that had just a tiny spot or two. The foxing was noticeably reduced, but not eliminated since the amount dabbed onto the area was minuscule and I didn't leave it on for too long a time. The areas that were dabbed did sustain gum damage, even though I did not rinse the stamp afterwards."
How did you "dab," Michael? Q-tips?
Has anyone experimented with (or thought about using) a syringe for applying the ammonia to small foxing spots. I've got syringes that I used for refilling printer cartridges years ago and wonder if those might be useful to treat small spots and minimize gum damage or loss on the stamps.
Tom
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Remember that household ammonia is a solution of ammonia in water. Whatever water will do to a stamp, ammonia will as well.
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"How did you "dab," Michael? Q-tips?"
Yes, but I squeezed out the excess fluid from the cotton tip to avoid spreading the fluid to areas that I did not want to get wet.
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I tried a different approach last evening, Michael. Since my wife is gone for a few days, I worked in the kitchen and started out to learn how little ammonia I could use and still remove small foxing spots. I worked with four Nicaragua BoB stamps from a 1950s French album. Each had small, but relatively obvious foxing spots. All were used and without gum. Each was placed in my watermark tray one at a time. When I was finished with each stamp, I blotted them with paper towels and dried them between paper towels.
I used a 30ml syringe with a small needle (don't know the size of the needle), but drew only 1ml of ammonia from the ½-gallon jug. I applied small drops to the first stamp directly onto the single foxing spot without the needle touching the stamp. I repeatedly applied drops every 1-2 minutes for 10 minutes. There was not enough liquid in the tray for the stamp to float and no more than half the stamp ever got soaked. I turned the stamp over from time to time using tongs, sliding the stamp on the bottom of the tray in the process. There was not enough liquid to move the stamp by shaking the tray. Once the stamp was dry, the spot of foxing was less visible, but it is still there.
I did the same with the second stamp, applying the drops directly on the foxing spot each time, sometimes on the face and sometimes on the back. However, I applied the ammonia somewhat more liberally over a 15-minute period. I still used less than 1ml of liquid, but the entire stamp was soaked this time. The result was the same as with the first stamp.
The third and fourth stamps had a little more foxing. This time, I placed the full 1ml in the tray with each stamp separately. This was enough to soak and float the stamps when holding the tray at a slight angle. I could gently shake the tray and keep the stamp in motion in the liquid. I did this for about 15 seconds every minute or so for about 10 minutes. I added a little more liquid (½ml?) and repeated the process for another 2-3 minutes. With the first of these two stamps, I blotted it dry and let it dry somewhat while I worked on the second of these two stamps. Then I soaked that first stamp a second time for 2-3 minutes, agitating the liquid and the stamp several times during that period.
This test was slightly more successful. The coloring of the foxing spots is significantly diminished, but I can still easily find the spots with a loupe. The second soaking of the one stamp didn't seem to make any difference.
By using the small amounts of ammonia (no more than about 1½ ml), I rarely smelled it. However, I failed to eliminate all signs of the foxing on any of the four stamps.
I soaked a fifth Nicaragua BoB stamp that had very dirty perf edges. I used about 1ml of ammonia and soaked it for five minutes and agitated it occasionally. The appearance of the stamp is much improved. I would estimate 75% or more of the soiling is gone.
I was disappointed with the foxing test results. Maybe I was expecting too much?
Next, I'll experiment with some stamps with grungy backs and paper discoloration as Ningpo presented in this thread in late October. Those were impressive results.
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"Next, I'll experiment with some stamps with grungy backs and paper discoloration as Ningpo presented in this thread in late October. Those were impressive results."
I may be throwing a spanner in the works here. I failed to state what I used for my 'laundry'. It wasn't ammonia, is was Chloromine T.
However, from the results you've described, you may be as successful using ammonia. I haven't yet tried it myself.
Although the use of hydrogen peroxide was discussed in another thread, I'll mention here that having just bought a bottle, I'll try another experiment to see if this chemical will do more than just reverse sulphurisation.
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Thanks for that clarification, Ningpo! Although your results look great, I won't be buying another chemical to experiment with. I'll stick with the ammonia and HP. It would be interesting to see which might work better as a general cleaning agent for our stamps.
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I put the ammonia and stamp in a small plastic container that has a top that seals tightly (the container I use is clear and actually the smallest size of those you get at a deli-counter when you buy potato salad and such). I want to keep the ammonia from evaporating into the air. I guess this is a make-shift sweatbox with the ammonia still contained. I don't know if the ammonia fumes in the container help maintain the ammonia strength in the solution. Maybe our resident chemist can answer that question.
Since ammonia doesn't cost that much, I add the liquid so that the stamp will float (maybe 1/2 inch of fluid) in the container. I want the stamp to float so that both sides of the paper get treated, and so I can agitate it now and then. I wonder how the results would be if the container was placed on a device that gently and constantly shook it.
I have seen similar results as you described of the foxing not being completely eliminated, especially with stamps that were heavily "foxicated" - I created a new word!. I think that different types of paper fibers will absorb the fluid differently. Absorbancy is the key here as to how well the ammonia cleans a stamp.
I have had no success using hydrogen peroxide to clean a stamp of foxing.
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Ammonia in a sealed container
Yep, if you close the container, you keep the ammonia level in the liquid phase constant. It's less than what's in ther bottled ammonia, though. What happens is that the ammonia gas (NH3) goes into the air in the container until the air is saturated with ammonia gas. That sets up an equilibrium. With the air saturated, no more gaseous ammonia can escape the liquid phase.
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I am following up on my post this morning with respect to the foxing tests on the Nicaragua stamps.
Of the four stamps with foxing that I tested last evening, I took the stamp that has the most foxing (both before and after that initial test) and placed it in a container. I used a Ziploc (brand name) plastic container measuring about 2" x 2" x 2" with a tight-fitting lid and placed about 3ml of ammonia in the container with the stamp. The lid fit tightly over the container.
I agitated the container several times during a 6-minute period. I opened the container to turn the stamp over (face down) and closed the container. I again agitated the container a few times over a 2-minute period.
I took the stamp out of the container, blotted it with the paper towels and let it dry between the paper towels.
I can see no difference in the foxing stain. The first test was somewhat helpful in lightening the stain, but this second test doesn't appear to have had any additional effect. The stain is still visible.
By the way, the first, third and fourth stamps in the initial tests were printed by American Bank Note Co. as was this test this evening. The second stamp in the initial tests was printed by Waterlow & Sons. I'm "0 for 4" in my foxing tests and need to find some stamps from other countries with foxing to test!
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I think things do get to a point on a stamp where the fungus has permanently damaged the paper. For me, getting the chance to stop the progression and possibly killing off the fungus should prevent possible contamination of other stamps. I think the cleaned stamp could be put in the album until a better example is obtained.
Foxing is often on tropical islands stamps. See if you have any foxing on those.
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I think you are correct about the paper staining, Michael. I did a few more tests this morning. Each stamp shows some improvement, but the stains (faint in most cases) remained.
I tested two used copies of Azores Scott #25 rose color on chalky paper with black overprint and no gum. I placed each stamp in my plastic watermark tray. I applied small drops of ammonia on the foxing spots. Less than half the stamp was soaked in each case. The ammonia doesn't mix well with the ink on this chalky paper. When I blotted the stamps with the paper towels, they left pink ink stains on the paper towels. The surface of the stamps didn't appear to have been affected, but obviously it was. After the stamps had dried for about 20 minutes, I placed them in clean water in the small plastic Ziploc container I mentioned in a previous message. I let them soak for a couple of minutes and then blotted them again. There were no additional problems with the ink, either in the areas of the stamps where ammonia had been applied or the areas where no ammonia had been applied.
I tested a used but gummed copy of Mozambique Scott #22. This stamp also had a small paper hinge. I did this test in the small closed Ziploc container. I used about 3-4 ml of fresh ammonia. I agitated the ammonia several times and removed the stamp after about 5 minutes. I could see no indication that the ammonia affected the ink on this stamp. Of course the hinge and gum are now gone, but faint yellow staining remains.
I tested an unused copy of Liberia Scott #27 without gum using the same procedure that I used for the Mozambique stamp. Although the ammonia probably neutralized the foxing, faint yellow stains remained.
My results in recent days using hydrogen peroxide to treat stamps with sulphurization (often mistakenly called "oxidation") were more successful!
Tom
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It's important to remember that the primary ingredient of ammonia and hydrogen peroxide is water. Stamps printed with water soluble inks will not do well with these techniques.
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I've encountered problems more than once in the past when soaking classic stamps from various parts of the world. I knew the risk with these particular Portuguese stamps and wasn't concerned, but was curious because I had never before experimented with ammonia. Once I discovered how these two stamps reacted to being partly saturated with the ammonia, I was curious to see how they would react to plain old water when entirely soaked. I was surprised to find no further problem with the water soak. In this case, it seems the ammonia in the water was the problem rather than the water itself.
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When I did some basic testing on use of ammonia with various inks (one of the many posts above), I did not use a King Luiz era Portuguese stamp. I did have a King Carlos era in red and did try that one - with no ill effects. One difference - I did not blot the stamp. I placed all the ones I tested face up on absorbent paper and let them air dry.
The King Luiz issues were prior to the King Carlos issues, and they may well be printed with an older ink base formulation or a different pigment or dye may have been used for the red color. That's just guesswork - wouldn't know where to begin to find 150-year-old ink formulas. The chalky paper may come into play here also.
I'll see what I can find on this and look through my duplicates for a King Luiz era to sacrifice for the cause.
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I'll start this out by apologizing for not taking before pictures. I wasn't intending for this to turn out to be an experiment.
Anyway, I had an old Austrian stamp (Scott #23) that had some serious, dark brown toning spots on it. I gave it a bath in ammonia. After about an hour, the toning was reduced by about 50%, but it was still very visible. I decided to let it soak for an extended period of time to see what would happen.
I checked on the stamp about every half hour. I would agitate the container to move the stamp about in the solution. I would also turn the stamp over. I repeated this many times, including after about three hours pouring out the ammonia, and adding fresh ammonia.
After three hours, the toning was reduced about 80% to 90%, with some spots entirely removed. I decided to leave the stamp in the covered container overnight to see what would happen and how the stamp would look in the morning.
About eight hours later (that makes it an 11 hour soak) I examined the stamp. The paper was fine and the ink was intact. The remaining toning spots showed little or no reduction in appearance.
I think this proves my thought that there comes a certain point where the toning affects the paper fibers so much that it is impossible to completely fix the problem. This also shows me that about three hours may be all that is needed to get the full effect of the ammonia treatment.
Here are after images showing both the front and back of the stamp:
The stamp is still a filler at best, if not an item to send to better send to the Holocaust Project, in my opinion.
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Michael was kind enough to send this stamp to me. I decided to further experiment and this is the same stamp after a 30 second soak in household bleach, followed by a good rinse, dry and pressing. It completely removed the foxing. However, I'm not sure how much, if any, it might have altered the original color. Which would pose the question, should a stamp treated in this manner be considered as altered from original, or simply cleaned? Would this be an acceptable practice if the stamp were being sold, or would it warrant disclosure?
Just for the record, the stamp won't be sold and will be used to replace a really nasty copy that I've had in my collection since the early 70's.
Thanks Michael!
WB
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"...should a stamp treated in this manner be considered as altered from original..."
Yes
"...would it warrant disclosure?"
Absolutely
Don
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I have done some more experimentation with using the clear household ammonia on stamps with foxing stains.
The first test was on a cut square, Scott U277, brown on white paper and produced in 1883 or 1884. It had a pair of small foxing spots near the upper left-hand corner and near the "M" in May. The ammonia treatment lasted 2-3 minutes and minor traces of the foxing stains remained. Unfortunately, the treatment noticeably altered the indicium, removing much of the red in the original ink color.
The second test involved two mint 1940s Liberia stamps, Scott #277 and #284. This image shows scans from the stamp faces that were produced about five years ago on my older scanner. Because I couldn't duplicate those images accurately with the newer scanner, I haven't tried to make before and after comparisons of the stamp faces. The foxing was more evident on the face of the #277 than on the #284 before the treatment.
After 1 minute in an open tray with ammonia covering the stamps, I rubbed the #277 gently between my thumb and forefinger along the top area of the stamp to determine if the gum was gone and discovered the stamp ink had become somewhat fugitive. I had done the same with the #284 with no apparent effect. The gum was gone from both stamps. I rinsed both stamps in cold water and blotted with a paper towel. The #277 left a tiny amount of blue ink on the paper towel, but the stamp doesn't appear to have been noticeably affected other than the removal of the stain and gum.
I count this a one failure and two successes. I'm guessing the foxing had been on the cut square for a very long time. So the stain is permanent. Considering that the Liberia stamps were not high value and had considerable foxing, the gum loss and reduced value were offset by the neutralization and virtually total removal of the foxing.
An interesting but unimportant side note. These Liberia stamps were part of a very complete collection I purchased in the 1980s. The collection stopped in the 1950s. The Scott #277-279 stamps were all unused and lightly hinged in a similar fashion, suggesting they had probably been together in the collection, probably since their initial purchase. However, only the #277 had foxing. The same collection contains the overprinted versions of these stamps and none of the three with overprints show any evidence of foxing.
Similarly, the #283-285 stamps were all mint never hinged and may have been kept together for the few years from the time they were originally purchased. However, only the middle stamp of those three shows any evidence of foxing.
Tom
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>Robert - You're welcome.
I have not had success with bleach. However, I had not used bleach on a stamp after it had been in an ammonia bath. That is interesting.
I'm not sure, because it could be my monitor or the image, but did the color change on the Austrian stamp? The paper fibers sure did get cleaned!
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Michael, I think it probably did, but not as much as it may appear in the scan. In hand it's not nearly as blue as it looks in the second set of pics and is actually more of a pastel green. Although I've never had a pristine copy to be able to make a comparison, I'd wager that the color was altered to some degree. At any rate, I still like it better without all those rusty brown spots.
WB
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I agree. It looks nice.
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I just stumbled upon a newly updated online publication at AIC Wiki. It's all about foxing and the treatment of foxing. It was last updated 19 September 2017.
http://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/Foxing_(PCC)
The focus is on papers used in art, but it looks like it may provide some useful information regarding various treatment alternatives and their limitations.
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I see that selling Stamporama rule states “3. Describe your lots correctly. Identify all bogus, fake, forged, counterfeit, repaired or altered stamps, and all defects in the item description or title."
After reading this thread and the another thread regarding using 3M tape as a stamp 'hinge' I am wondering if stamps that have been chemically 'cleaned' or 3M 'hinged' are required to be described as such in the Auction and Approval section?
Don
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Interesting questions, Don!
Although I haven't sold here at SoR, I'm always more inclined to get carried away when describing stamps for sale. And, when I was buying, I always appreciated the extra effort of other sellers.
Somewhere (here on SoR?) I saw someone's related question yesterday that may have been rhetorical. The gist of the question was: Is it "cleaning" when we soak used stamps to remove old hinge remnants? It's something that never occurred to me. I have seldom done that, but the question sure is worth including in a more general discussion of what full disclosure involves.
Don, I suppose your question would apply to modern stamps and their new adhesives as well. I stopped collecting before these things appeared and fortunately never dealt with the associated problems. However, I think I would want to know how such stamps had been handled if I were in the market to buy them today.
It's a slippery slope, and using the term "all" twice in that rule might be worth either reconsidering or explaining in more detail.
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I believe it was Ningpo who mentioned experimenting with Chloramine-T to treat foxing. The online article I referenced yesterday says this about Chloramine-T.
"...This bleach has generally fallen from favour due to the difficulty in removing residues from the paper (Burgess 1988, 22)."
In the section titled "Observations on Current (1992) Conservation Practices," they stated the following.
Respondents most often mentioned using hydrogen peroxide as bleach of choice on foxing. Sun bleaching in water with calcium hydroxide added was also frequently cited. Reducing the foxing with sodium borohydride was the third most mentioned bleach. One respondent mentioned using chlorine bleaches when hydrogen peroxide could not be used due to presence of metal in paper. The following are examples:
Use 2% hydrogen peroxide (pH 8.5 with ammonium hydroxide and calcium hydroxide added). Use 3-4 applications drying between each application. Use hydrogen peroxide only until slight bubbling begins, then discard and mix new solution if necessary (SB).
Sunlight or sunlamps are used rather than a fluorescent light bank. Adding a few drops of hydrogen peroxide to the tray seems to catalyze the effect of light (NH).
Have used hydrogen peroxide in water-ethanol mixes on the suction table for charcoal or white chalk drawings which were badly foxed. Have sun bleached a foxed intaglio image by Albers in 75% ethanol, then washed in the same mix to great effect (JCW).
For artwork which cannot be immersed, wash art as possible (suction table, disk, or by floating) and light bleach by local wetting of foxed areas and exposing to light source. Mask sensitive areas. Rinse thoroughly as above (NH). One technique for shorter light. bleaching time is to locally bleach foxed spots with hydrogen peroxide, rinse, then place in sunlight bath. Conservators sometimes add a few drops of hydrogen peroxide to the bath used in light bleaching.
Some respondents noted that in some cases foxing could not be completely diminished and that they accepted a pale ghost-image of the stain rather than continue bleaching.
Respondents generally have noted few incidences of color reversion. Some noted reversion with hydrogen peroxide, but often attributed this to poor rinsing.
Some respondents stated they believe that chlorine bleaches to be useful on fungal foxing.
Respondents generally do not use a fungicide for foxing.
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The question would be does a potential buyer expect to be informed? Would an expertizing note it?
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Don, where did you find the "rule" that you quoted above? That is not the current rule. If it is showing up somewhere on the site, I need to remove it.
Here is the current rule (Auctions):
C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot.
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Hi Michael,
I navigated to it earlier this morning but cannot seem to find it now, I assume that an old link somewhere is the culprit. I remember using the side menu first and then clicked on a drop down menu off one of the pages. Sorry.
It appears the rule I copied and pasted is now rule numbered C3, "Intentionally listing bogus, fake, forged, counterfeit, repaired or altered stamps as genuine is prohibited."
The issue at hand, and one that has been previously cover in other threads is, what does 'altered' mean? In one of your previous posts https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5680 you defined 'altered'...
""Probably the best definition is a stamp is altered any time someone does something to it that changes the stamp's appearance (for good or ill) from what it was before the change was made. A stamp can be altered many times by different collectors who own it through the years.""
That is a bit broad but I would definitely like to know if the stamps I purchase have been though anything more than a clean water bath or watermark fluid. I would indeed want to know if the stamp had an ammonia bath (and/or have had some type of weird ‘hinge’ gum removed from them). Ammonia also removes fountain pen ink, it can be used by those who intentionally wanting to commit fraud by removing manuscript cancels. (It is also used to clean fountain pens and remove fountain ink in clothes.) I looked but I didn’t see this mentioned in this thread but perhaps I missed it.
I wish Stamporama had an 'experiment' section that included a big Red caution note at the top telling folks the potential dangers. The power of social media cannot be underestimated, it would be bad if someone ruins their family heirlooms. I do love that folks experiment, this is how the hobby gets pushed forward. But even if I come up with a 'stamp hack' that shows results for me, it would take many years and many others (in different environmental conditions) to know that it was truly safe to do. And it just seems prudent to make really sure that everyone understand the implications.
Am I being over cautious?
Don
Edit: Wait, I found it, it is on the 'Tips' page not Rule page
https://stamporama.com/forms/display_form.php?id=aucselltip
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OK, thanks for finding it. The tips are just that. The preamble to the tips section tells people to go to the rules and tutorials for full details. Links are provided for those.
It doesn't hurt to be cautious.
Regarding the issue, foxing is "staining". Some people in other countries call it by other names, like "rust". It's all the same, damage. I haven't seen any ammonia bath that completely removes it. Since we do not permit listing of damaged stamps with catalog values less than $5.00, none of this material should be appearing in the auctions anyway. If it does, then the auction lot will be closed. Rules for the approval books will be revised in the near future to also prohibit damaged stamps from being included in the books.
As far as the sales platforms go, let's just keep the damaged junk out of it.
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Don's comment about the 'experiment' section just reminded me of a passing thought I had last night. Would it be possible to create some sort of area here for posting examples of items that ammonia, etc. have damaged? This came to mind after I rendered a fairly heavily foxed Nicaragua telegraph stamp worthless in an ammonia bath. First the blue overprint ink began to run and then the red stamp ink began to fade quickly before my eyes. It was the only copy I had, but it was already damaged by the foxing and I knew the risks. When I get the "after" version of this stamp scanned, I'll post a before and after that could be posted to a catalog of "warnings" to others who may be tempted to deal with foxing on some of the early stamps. Maybe we can help others avoid some of the risks.
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Why not just create a thread in this topic? It can be a running thread like the SOR Diner and Antonius' stamp collection threads. Those work fine and people are used to such discussion threads.
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When reading my posts on this topic, keep in mind the fact that my background in science is limited to introductory classes in chemistry and biology in high school over 50 years ago. So I am sharing the following without opinion.
Here are a couple of additional quotes from the article I mentioned a few posts back. Again, the focus is not philately, but books and artwork on paper. Here is the link again.
http://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/Foxing_(PCC)
Referring to relative humidity (RH), "Corte, Ferroni, et al in 2003 note collection environments should stay in the range of 40-60% RH to best avoid development of microorganisms and presentation of foxing marks (#CorteFerronietal2003Corte, Ferroni, et al. 2003, 172)."
"Generally, it has been found that growth increases with increasing temperature and decreases with decreasing temperature."
"Apparently dark storage produced the same pattern, color, and frequency of foxing as occasional exposure to light (Cain, Stanley and Roberts 1987, 24)."
(Referring to two models that purport to show how molds begin and then affect the paper and then die.)
"These models suggest that one reason why foxing stains do not cover an entire page might be that the acids secreted by the fungi collect, eventually reducing the pH enough to curtail further fungal growth."
The following may also be worth investigating, but is beyond my pay grade and needs to be interpreted by someone with a better scientific background.
Reduction of Staining
"Beckwith et al. determined that the content of material soluble in a weak base (4% aqueous solution of ammonium hydroxide) increased markedly in foxed areas as compared to unfoxed, and that this material is hygroscopic (Beckwith et al. 1940, 322). This may in part explain why foxed areas in paper absorb moisture first and most completely when a sheet is moistened. Gallo and Hey found that washing with alkaline water can attenuate, if not completely remove, many foxing marks. Deacidification, with half-saturated calcium hydroxide solution, was even more satisfactory (Gallo and Hey 1988, 102). However, many conservators would consider the pH of this solution too high (AK). Percentages as high as the four percent used by Beckwith et al. are not recommended for treating works of art on paper, though less concentrated alkaline solutions have been found useful for reducing foxing."
The following seems to summarize the authors' views on storing materials that have been, or may become, affected by foxing.
Environment
Housing
There is some experimental evidence that foxing will worsen over time if kept in a poor environment. As for any other damaged, brittle or inherently fragile materials, proper housing with non-acidic or buffered materials, non-damaging RH and temperatures and limited handling and exposure must be considered the first treatment step, which may mitigate further damage (Iiams and Beckwith 1935, 415-16).
Relative Humidity (RH)
Storing paper at a low RH is recommended as "the best precaution against foxing" (Daniels 1988, 93). See Fungal Activity.
Temperature
Fungi generally prefer temperatures of 25°C to 35°C, dependent on species. There is no indication that iron corrosion is temperature dependent. Often temperature in storage or exhibition spaces is determined by comfort zones for people, and it is therefore easier to regulate RH to avoid conditions which may further damage paper.
Ventilation
Good circulation is often mentioned as a deterrent to mold and air borne fungi especially in articles relating to libraries (Allsop 1985, 533).
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Michael said,
"Why not just create a thread in this topic? It can be a running thread like the SOR Diner and Antonius' stamp collection threads. Those work fine and people are used to such discussion threads."
OK, if that's the best way to approach this. However, there are others here who would be better at providing an introductory post or two. Then, we could all begin posting our experiments that demonstrate the dangers that I believe Don was referring to.
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10:30:54am
I was working on a small accumulation of stamps from Jordan. I found two stamps that had "foxing". Both were engraved stamps from the same set from the 1950s. One had some of the tell-tale brown staining around the edges on the perforations. The other had that, and a bit more on the rest of the paper. The overall tone of the paper on the second stamp was brown.
I was going to toss the stamps. Why risk putting the stamps in my album and having this spread to other stamps? Then I decided to try an experiment.
I took the stamp with the worst staining, and went to the kitchen. I looked for a bottle of bleach, but we had none. I looked through the cabinet for possible other cleaning agents. I found a bottle of clear ammonia.
I got a small cup saucer and placed the stamp face down on it. The stamp actually fit in the little indentation where the cup rests. I then poured the ammonia full strength onto the stamp. I poured only enough ammonia to the point where the stamp began to float. I could see the ammonia immediately begin to go to work. The paper began to turn white (its normal color), and the staining began to fade away. I also could see the front of the stamp start to show through the back of the paper. I thought this was an indication of something going wrong, but that was not the case.
I picked up the saucer and gently sloshed the ammonia around to circulate the liquid all over both sides of the stamp. I did this for about 30 seconds. I then gave the stamp a good rinse bath in cold water. I dried the stamp. All of the stains were gone, and the paper was returned to its normal white color. I checked it against other stamps from the set. I saw no difference in paper color, or stamp image. The stamp was clean. I repeated this process with the other stamp, and got the same results. Looks like the ammonia remedies this problem.
A couple of things:
- Do not get the saucer too close to your nose due to the fumes.
- I tried this with diluted ammonia (50% ammonia and 50% water), but the solution did not clean the stamp.
- I only tried this on two engraved stamps, so I do not know how stamps printed in other ways will react to the ammonia.
These are two stamps that I would have normally thrown away. Now they have been added to my collection.
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08:49:32pm
re: The End of Foxing???
There is an American Institute of Conservation document that discusses this at http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/pcc/13_foxing.pdf. It seems to suggest that it works, but notes that the Ph (acidity) is quite high.
On another website there is a discussion that suggests ammonia works with foxed litho prints. However, there is some suggestion that it affects the paper itself and may lead to long-term deterioration.
It may be that wider searching among the views of museum and library conservation specialists may show what is best.
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-12-26 21:12:20)
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10:44:51pm
re: The End of Foxing???
The way I see it, without the "treatment" the stamp is toast anyway. If there's paper deterioration later on, well, it happened later than sooner without the "treatment".
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re: The End of Foxing???
Hi Michael;
At least there is a good chance that the mold that caused the foxing will not be able to revive later to harm your other stamps. So what you did was a good idea, especially since the stamps would have been no good in that condition.
If the process you devised causes the stamps to be exposed to an acid environment then next time as a safeguard use a rinse of dissolved baking soda, before the fresh water bath, and make the last rinse about 45-60 minutes minimum.
When I used to sell cheap coins that little cash value, I cleaned with a recipe of water and vinegar I found on the internet. Then they recommended a baking soda rinse, and then a fresh water soaking. This produced a beautiful result, and collectors could care less for coins that are not worth anything.
So congrats for having the courage to try something, others would not have done, and for sharing that with the rest of us. I'll keep that in mind as I process lots of old stamps. You should message Lisa about your results, as she has a mess of moldy stuff and she has an allergy for anything moldy.
Keep on stampin'....
TuskenRaider
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
26 Dec 2015
11:26:52pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Thank you, Tusken for thinking of me and Michael for posting this. I've debated the use of ammonia or vinegar, both will take care of mold. However, we are talking about thousands of stamps. I'll keep thinking!
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01:13:33am
re: The End of Foxing???
I also did this on an unused New Hebrides stamp that was a dark brown on the back. It lightened up, and alot of the toning and foxing disappeared, but not all of it by far. The gum was of course disturbed, but not totally gone.
All of the stamps that I have tried this on thus far have been engraved stamps. It looks like 30 seconds in a full strength ammonia bath is long enough. The ink starts to soften and run. I did a little timing experiment. Sacrificed that stamp for the trial.
If you try this, just be careful.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Tusken...
When I was in the Army we were required to make sure the buttons on our uniform were shiny.We found the best way of doing that to drop them into Coca Cola over night.In the morning they were spotless.Should work for coins also.
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07:10:32am
re: The End of Foxing???
Charlie
How long ago were you in the army? In former years some of the contents in Coca Cola were quite noxious ( Coca leaves for one). I would suggest that more modern health and hygiene concerns mean that Coca Cola is not now so efficacious for removing gunge ( think the lining of your stomach !!! ).
However I remember as a Scout Leader passing on the info. to the boys that should you inadvertently swallow river or other "dubious" water during an activity you should drink Coca Cola as an immediate antidote ( and it had to be Coke not any other sort of Cola - and I am sure that the person offering the advice had no commercial axe to grind ), and it certainly was a serious statement...nothing to do with stamps mind!!
Malcolm
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re: The End of Foxing???
Ah, Coca-Cola.
My father & uncles had a liquor store. Shop owners in New York were very careful to keep the sidewalks in front of their store free of litter; the law still requires everyone (home owners, too) to clear the sidewalk in front of their property of snow & ice within hours of the end of a storm.
One time (1950s), someone dropped a family-size bottle of Coca-Cola (glass, in those days) right in front of the store. It stained the sidewalk and, since they were out there every morning - more often in the winter - they got to see that stain, year after year.
None of them every touched the stuff after that.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: The End of Foxing???
I left the Army in '68 after my 2 years National Service.
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re: The End of Foxing???
"These are two stamps that I would have normally thrown away. Now they have been added to my collection."
The key question of course is: would you recommend this as a general treatment against foxing? Also for stamps that one might not toss so easily?
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04:09:09pm
re: The End of Foxing???
I hardly have any stamps with foxing as I have always thrown them away. The stamps from this exercise came out of a batch of stamps I bought from approvals here. They weren't described as having problems. Anyway, I thought why not try something to see if it works. If not, no loss, as I would have tossed the stamps anyway.
So, I had two stamps that came clean with this process. I would describe the foxing on those as being light to moderate. The third stamp had very heavy foxing, and that came about 50% clean. All three were engraved, and I didn't have any problems with the ink as long as I didn't leave the stamps in the ammonia more than 30 seconds.
I don't know how stamps that are printed by other than engraving would react to this treatment. If I find one, I'll give it a try and see.
For me, it seems like a plausible treatment. I do agree that the stamp should get a bath, as others have stated, in a solution that will neutralize any acid absorbed by the stamp paper.
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07:41:41pm
re: The End of Foxing???
OK - the chemist in me has been activated. There have been some things posted here and on another thread about mold that really are not correct.
The term pH is the measure of the hydrogen ion in an aqueous solution. (That's not the strict definition, but a practical one.) The hydrogen ion (H+) is what makes an acid an acid. The pH is the negative logarithm (base 10) of that concentration. Pure water has a pH of 7 - anything higher than that has fewer hydrogen ions and hence is less acidic - it's basic. Remember, the scale is the negative of the concentration, so a higher number means a smaller H+ concentration and less acidity. The pH of a solution can range from something like -1.9 (yes, pH may be a negative number) to more than 14. A negative pH solution is a strong mineral acid - hydrochloric, nitric, sulfuric, etc. Most of those are industrial use only, but muriatic acid (old name for hydrochloric) sold for household use has a pH of -0.5. Solutions with a pH of 13-14+ are very strong bases - caustics. Some household chemicals (Clorox, for example) get up to a pH of 12.6. Anything beyond that is industrial.
One more point – pH apples to aqueous solutions only. A non-aqueous system simply cannot have a pH. Ronsonol and isopropyl alcohol used for watermark detection have no pH and do not affect the acidity level of stamps in any way.
If you use ammonia to cure foxing or kill mold, don’t worry about any latent effects. Household ammonia has a pH of 11 – 12. It’s not an acid – it’s a base, and a fairly strong one at that. And it’s not really ammonia anyway; it’s really ammonia water or ammonia solution. Ammonia is a gas – NH3. It dissolves in water, but it’s very loosely held – it wants to come out. The strong odor you smell when you open a bottle is the gaseous ammonia coming from the solution. Exposed to the atmosphere, all the ammonia quickly gasifies. The only thing that would keep it around any length of time is water – it has a slight affinity to water. If you soak your stamps in ammonia, let them air dry. If they are dry, the ammonia is gone. While it’s on the stamps, it may neutralize some acidity present, but that should be only positive. The last thing you should do is try to neutralize any acid present – there isn’t any, and anything you do would have a negative effect.
The one caveat is inks. There have probably been hundreds, if not thousands, of ink formulations used over the history of stamps. Some may be adversely affected by ammonia. I can’t think of any ink formulations that would be disturbed by a fairly strong base, but there may be some.
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10:25:46pm
re: The End of Foxing???
That's interesting.
In the same light, what would you say about using a bleach like Clorox instead of ammonia? (We don't have any bleach at the house right now. That's why I tried ammonia.)
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
29 Dec 2015
11:23:14pm
re: The End of Foxing???
How can isopropyl alcohol not have a pH if it is aqueous? You seem to imply that it's not.
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09:53:31am
re: The End of Foxing???
The typical household rubbing alcohol is a 70/30 mixture of isopropyl alcohol and water. It's a mixture - not a solution. Isopropyl alcohol is miscible in water, but not soluble in water.
For the pH of water to change, something must be dissolved in it to give the hydrogen (H+) or hydroxyl (OH-) ions to change the balance to either the acid or base side. There must be an aqueous solution, not a mixture.
Isopropanol's formula is C3H7OH - that OH is a hydroxyl unit. If it were soluble in water, those OHs would go into solution and a 70/30 mix would be an extremely strong base - very caustic. But those OHs stay firmly bound to a carbon and there is no solution.
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01:46:47pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Time for bleach.
First and foremost: If you want to try bleach, DO NOT use bleach with any other household chemical. Bleach plus household ammonia gives a compound that can cause serious lung/respiratory system damage. Bleach plus household peroxide can go BOOM - rather spectacularly. Different things can happen with other chemicals, most of them bad. Conditions and concentrations have to be just right for some of these to happen, but don’t find out what those are the hard way.
Ammonia and bleach are both high pH materials used for cleaning, but that's about where the similarity ends. Ammonia is a gas that dissipates rapidly. Bleach is made by dissolving a solid (sodium or calcium hypochlorite) in water, some of which stays behind after the water evaporates. Ammonia acts a lot like soaps/detergents. Bleach causes chemical reactions.
There are two worries with using bleach to tackle foxing. One is that bleach + rust = more rust. Some papers on foxing say that iron (in the form of iron oxide, otherwise known as rust) is the cause of foxing. If that is the case, bleach may make the problem worse. The other is inks. Bleach attacks a lot of stains, and when you get down to basics, ink on paper is a controlled stain. With all the inks used over the years, there are almost certainly some that would be attacked by bleach.
All in all, bleach is probably not the way to go – even though it does have the side benefit of killing mold.
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11:00:50pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Here's an update on my use of ammonia to get foxing off of stamps.
I left a stamp in the solution for several minutes to see if there would be any damage to the ink. There was none.
I have also used ammonia on a lithographed stamp. There was no problem with the ink.
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10:09:08pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Michael,
You beat me to it. While putting the Xmas decorations in the basement, I dug out some watch glasses (chemist-speak for saucers), and I went out today and bought a bottle of household ammonia.
I've looked through my duplicates for some to sacrifice for the cause. I'm trying to find ones from older stamps that have visually different ink appearances or might come from different technologies, and I'm also looking for different colors - the pigments in the inks may react differently. So far I've found an older Japanese stamp in red. one from the Russian revolutionary period in green,and one from a Portuguese colony that has violet for the main color plus black for colony and value plus a black surcharge plus a green Republica overprint. I'm going to pick out three more (I have six watch glasses) and then essentially repeat what you have done.
I really don't expect any issues, but the greater number and more varied types tried will add to the confidence level. I'll post the results here.
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11:43:47pm
re: The End of Foxing???
I haven't tried a photogravure printed stamp yet.
I am thinking of getting a small, clear plastic storage container with a lid, and use that to slosh the stamp around in. Not sure if the ammonia will melt the plastic, now especially since you said you are going to use glass cases.
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re: The End of Foxing???
While not every plastic is the same, polymers share certain commonalities, and they do sell ammonia in plastic bottles.
I'd use something dishwasher safe, and not worry.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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09:33:11am
re: The End of Foxing???
You would be OK with any household plastic. Avoid the foamed disposable stuff. I went to watch glasses because I had them and they would typically be used for experiments like this in a lab.
The real reason is that I will avoid having someone else in the house saying, "Just what do you think you're doing with my dishes?"
Hope to get this done over the weekend.
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12:33:24pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Yes, I did get that question a couple of times about the dishes... It didn't stop me from doing my experiment, however. Couldn't stop something that was already in progress, right?
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09:41:13pm
re: The End of Foxing???
More on ammonia.
Ammonia looks like a good candidate for cleaning stamps. It will not harm any standard paper and since ammonia in water is basic, acid residue level in the stamps cleaned could only lowered if affected at all. There is the possibility that some inks/pigments might be affected, even though known ink chemistries show nothing should happen. To make a quick survey, I took six stamps of older issues (ranging from 1883 to 1942) as test specimens. These were different colors and different issuing countries, and two had overprints. These were all used and all were visually clean – did not want any soiling that might be removed into the ammonia solution that could be interpreted as ink loss.
One stamp was placed in each of six watch glasses. Approximately 15 mL of household ammonia was added to each watch glass, covering the stamps. The stamps were agitated within the liquid using tongs every minute for five minutes. At the end of five minutes, the stamps were removed and placed on absorbent paper. The liquid remaining (almost all water by that time) was completely clear – no sign of any color or bleed from the stamps. The stamps (after drying) looked the same as when they were first placed in the watch glass.
This is by no means definitive, but it does indicate that ammonia as a cleaning agent is going to work on almost everything out there with no problem. If you want to try to clean a valuable stamp, find a low value stamp from the same issuer from the same time period – from the same series if possible. If that one cleans up OK, you are almost certainly good to go.
One more comment – we’re talking about clear ammonia here. So-called cloudy ammonia has detergent additives, and while that’s not going to hurt the stamp, an extra rinse or two may be needed. Obviously, don’t go for the ones labeled ‘lemon scented’ or something similar. Luckily, you want the cheapest version – plain old ammonia.
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09:44:46pm
re: The End of Foxing???
What were the printing methods for the stamps you tested?
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re: The End of Foxing???
Foxing, shmoxing ... will ammonia lift PSA (Pressure Sensitive Adhesive) stamps?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who found only lemon-scented ammonia at Home Depot)
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10:46:51am
re: The End of Foxing???
They covered litho, typo, and gravure. I was not too worried about the basic ink constituent variations across different printing processes - they don't vary that much. Dyes and pigments are another story.
I ran into the same problem with getting clear ammonia. My local grocery store had the lemon-scented only. I found clear at a Dollar General nearby. This weekend, I saw clear at Walmart. It was in gallon size, and if I remember correctly, it was less than $2.
I don't think ammonia will do anything to PSA. From what I know of those formulations, there's nothing for the ammonia to affect.
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re: The End of Foxing???
So, can any British reader advise me where I might find this wonderful ammonia, which seems so easy to come by elsewhere? Do British supermarkets actually sell this stuff?
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re: The End of Foxing???
Why, I was within a stone's throw of the place this very morning! Thank you!
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re: The End of Foxing???
This was a great thread! I really appreciate the experimentation Michael and dollhaus conducted.
Michael mentioned gum being disturbed in one instance. Were all the other ammonia experiments conducted on stamps without gum?
Also, is this expected to be a permanent solution or is the effect of the ammonia bath likely to dissipate over time? If it's not likely to be permanent, would you, Michael and dollhaus, be willing to report on any changes over time?
Thank you for your contributions to this topic!
Tom
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re: The End of Foxing???
Alas, 'The Range' at Romford Brewery (see three posts above) had no idea what liquid ammonia was. A youth enquired why I needed it (is it a component for IED making?) and I did not have the nerve to confess in public that it was to remove foxing from postage stamps.
I expect it has a UK brand name. I did not know what, though.
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07:59:56pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Tom, since ammonia is infused in water, any gummed stamp immersed in the solution will sustain gum damage.
Most of the stamps I experimented on were used, but I did some localized "dabbing" on unused stamps that had just a tiny spot or two. The foxing was noticeably reduced, but not eliminated since the amount dabbed onto the area was minuscule and I didn't leave it on for too long a time. The areas that were dabbed did sustain gum damage, even though I did not rinse the stamp afterwards.
I wouldn't be able to track this since almost all of the stamps used were from the damaged pile and not part of my collection. The few that were, I don't recall which ones I did.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Michael,
You know me! I hate to throw anything away!
If we have any unadulterated ammonia here, I'm tempted to experiment with some low value gummed stamps and see what happens. Given that the stained stamps are already damaged, whether gummed or not, loss of (or damage to) the gum along with stain removal isn't going to reduce the usefulness or value of those stamps! If the treatment is relatively permanent, then the stamps may have a little value once again.
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re: The End of Foxing???
To test the impact on color, you might cut a dozen or so stamps in half and only treat one side of each, keeping the other side as a control. When all the treatments are done, just put them back side by side for comparison, scanning, etc.
-Steve
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re: The End of Foxing???
Lindner has "mildew stain remover" in two bottles, ERNI A and ERNI B to be used together. B is to rinse. I have these products but honestly haven't used them yet.
The are not really "mildew" stain removers but more accurately mold/fungi stain removers. Foxing from metals affecting paper I assume are not addressed by these products.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Great information here! For mint stamps, I wonder if using a "StampLift" would work? Using the ammonia to soak the pads and set the stamp face down on the grill, then closing the box. I'm thinking that the ammonia would come out of solution, circulate around the stamp and dissolve the foxing while not adversely affecting the gum. Is this a possibility?
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02:24:47pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Terry, that's an interesting idea. You want to give it a try and let us know?
The gum would definitely remain. Not sure if it would become damaged, though.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Let me see if I can find some mint stamps showing signs of foxing. I'll let you know.
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re: The End of Foxing???
An interesting idea, Terry! I don't have a Stamplift and we don't seem to have any unadulterated ammonia in the house. I'll wait to see if Terry can do this test. If it shows promise, I may have to buy a Stamplift and try this.
This would become another important item to add to stamp sale descriptions, although I suppose many don't bother.
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re: The End of Foxing???
What's a stamplift? I've got some fluid called Stamplift which is obviously not what you are talking about.
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06:38:14pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Terry is talking about a commercial device that acts like a sweat box.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Is this it?
I've never seen one before.
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re: The End of Foxing???
This is the "StampLift" device. They cost about $5 to $10. I know that Subway sells them.
There are sponges secured in the top and bottom covers with a center grid on which to lay the stamp. The sponges are normally soaked in water. Then, when the cover is closed, it "sweats" the gum attachment to paper to remove stamps from envelope pieces. Since the the liquid does not flow over the stamp, a large majority of the original gum can be retained with this process.
My suggestion would be to soak the sponges in ammonia and lay the foxed stamp face down on the grid.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I've just had a look around. These devices are not available in the UK (and possibly even Europe). It's no surprise then that I hadn't heard of these before.
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re: The End of Foxing???
If you are going to try the Stamplift approach, I'd suggest a VERY well ventilated space - ammonia fumes aren't pleasant in the least.
I've done the ammonia soaks before and have found no ill effect on the stamps - I've checked back several months later just to be sure. It's amazing how clean you can get toned/foxed stamps in a very short period of time.
Personally, I'm not certain if ammonia will work with the Stamplift. I know when I do an ammonia soak, there is a dirt residue which is generated. The ammonia seems to act as a cleanser. If you do give it a try, I would be more than interested in the results, though.
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re: The End of Foxing???
WOW - this really was an interesting thread - thank you all for contributions and 'ground breaking' research. Is there anything like a Nobel prize for stamp conservation?
Now - one question from me - has anybody tested the ammonia trick on chalky paper stamps, e.g. semi-classic GB empire? I know the colors on chalky paper easily get disturbed in water - what about a quick bath in ammonia?
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re: The End of Foxing???
Hi Ningpo;
There are probably lots of areas where it is not possible to buy a stamplift locally or would cost too much postage to buy from overseas.
One can be easily be made at home. All that is needed is a shallow plastic storage container, some sponge material cut to size, some screen cut to size, with tabs bent at 90º angles for legs. Many stamp collectors from the early 20th century made their own that way, using tins that cookies or chocolates came in.
Just breezin' up....
TuskenRaider
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re: The End of Foxing???
Thanks for the tip Tuskenraider. In fact your comment about the cost of obtaining one from overseas has been borne out.
Before you posted that, I had been mulling over a similar idea. Something like the size of an old tobacco tin but in plastic (like the Stamplift). I have a lot of miniature drilling/boring tools, so I could fashion a grid.
Or,
I could always use one of these 1800's solid silver gilt vinaigrettes. Would save a lot of messing about.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Hi Ningpo;
I'm just guessing here, but I don't know if that is enough holes to get the job done. I think the trick is to get the fastest results, before the gum gets too wet or disturbed. Also silver is a highly reactive metal (tarnishes easily, as does copper), and plastic might be better.
Do some research first an you should find something that can be trimmed to fit. Try hardware stores or building centers. Window screen can be had in vinyl, but is kinda floppy. It could probably be stiffened with a homemade frame/leg thingy to glue the screen onto.
There may be members on here who obtained one from buying an estate collection. Make an ad in Discussion Board want ads, to see if members have one they don't need. You could probably get a much better deal on price/postage that way.
And just tackin' back....
TuskenRaider
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re: The End of Foxing???
Sweat boxes used to be widely available in the UK.
I just checked my old (British) "Observer's Book of Postage Stamps" from 1967 and it refers to them.
I bet they would have been for sale in Vera Trinder's in London until it closed.
I really miss that shop!
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re: The End of Foxing???
"I bet they would have been for sale in Vera Trinder's in London until it closed."
Most probably. How I miss that shop. I used to buy those really strong cardboard boxes, which I need more of and can't get.
By the way Tuskenraider, I was being a bit mischievous about the vinaigrette. The one I posted is worth £300; and no, I don't own it. I had wondered if its design had influenced the Stamplift box, or others. These had small sponges under the perforated plate, soaked with some fragrance to 'revive' the genteel owner from the London Town miasma.
Same sort of principle really.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I was trying to get rid of foxing on a couple stamps today and checking watermarks at the same time.
The ammonia smelled terrible, and the lighter fluid was making me woozy.
I thought it might work if I used my BBQ lighter to gently burn off the mould.
Uh, bad idea. Please don't try this at home...
Dave.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I know bleach was discussed earlier and not recommended, but I had about 50 DDR stamps from the late 70's and early 80's that had extensive foxing. I gave them a 15 second soak in pure household bleach, followed by a 1 minute soak in fresh water and it worked great. After about 3 months there has been no return of foxing and no adverse effects of any kind. I did do a couple of samples of different types before proceeding, but it seems to have worked fine on all of them. I'd always recommend doing a trial run on like stamps, but from my own experience, bleach works quite well on at least some.
WB
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re: The End of Foxing???
Since now we're talking about bleach and ammonia in the same thread, do not mix bleach and ammonia as the result is toxic.
I am very skeptical about using full-strength household bleach as a preservation method for stamps. Without a doubt bleach will remove some of the color and can affect the cancel. Certainly we know it is used by fraudsters to remove cancels. I have some examples and the cancel is not the only area affected because usually the stamp design itself is lightened around the area where the cancel was removed.
Supposedly, bleach can also be difficult to remove from paper, once applied, despite rinsing. This can cause deterioration over time especially when exposed to humidity.
Killing mold and removing stains from foxing are two different things.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm only posting the results that I had. When I lay the bleached stamps side by side with unbleached, like stamps, I can see no marked difference between the printing or the cancels. I will keep an eye on them and watch for future damage, but as it stands right now, the bleach seems to have worked fine.
I do agree fully, that mixing chemicals of any kind can be a recipe for disaster and also would never recommend it.
WB
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re: The End of Foxing???
Here are the before and after images of my latest stamp laundry. The first image is the eBay image, the second is my scan. Not perfection but at least the overall colour is now correct:
EDIT
Forgot to show the backs. As you can see, the before image was a piece of 'Buttzville Bronco' and now;
well I could almost eat my dinner off it.
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09:42:22pm
re: The End of Foxing???
The hazards of using bleach in the presence of other household chemicals is real. You can avoid such hazards by using bleach in isolation.
Ammonia and bleach are two ways to clean things - but they do it in different ways. Without getting into something too technical, ammonia acts a lot like a detergent. It makes weak chemical bonds with gunk/dirt/whatever. This in turn makes the gunk water soluble, and it rinses away with the water carrying the ammonia. Bleach actually chemically attacks whatever it comes in contact with and causes a chemical reaction. That's good for getting out stains that detergents (and ammonia) would not touch. That includes ink stains - you can read Clorox's comments on line about how to remove ink stains using Clorox. But think about that - stamps are printed with ink, overprints are in ink (possibly not the same type as used for the stamp), and cancellations are in ink (very probably not the same type as used for the stamps).
Modern printing inks are most likely not susceptible to attack from bleach. But the farther back in time you go, the more likely that the inks would be attacked by bleach. I think some of the old aniline-based inks would be pushovers for bleach. This would be especially so for overprints/surcharges made locally - the inks used for those may well have been a generation behind in ink technology. Cancellations fall in the same ballpark.
You can probably get by using bleach on anything after about 1950 on as long as what you want to clean is not overprinted and you don't care about the cancellation. Even then, you may get get a very light color change in the stamp's ink. From about 1985 on, inks should resist bleach pretty well.
You can certainly use bleach for cleaning a stamp. Just don't be surprised if your 1912 2-cent carmine rose comes out pink. Red inks are notorious for their instability.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Dollhaus said:
"This weekend, I saw clear at Walmart. It was in gallon size, and if I remember correctly, it was less than $2."
The label on the clearest ammonia I found at Walmart listed surfactant as the only additional ingredient. They were half-gallon jugs. Should I avoid this one and continue searching for one with no ingredients?
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03:58:39pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Ok with surfactants - just avoid the cloudy ones (detergent added) and the smelly ones (some unknown lemon-scented stuff added).
A surfactant is added at very low levels. It reduces the surface tension of water so the liquid 'wets' a surface easier. That's only going to help. Assuming the manufacturer is using one of the cheap, mass-produced surfactants, the surfactant itself degrades quickly in air and doesn't leave anything behind. That's only logical - if they're making the ammonia for cleaning, they wouldn't do too well if the ammonia left a residue behind.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Great! Thanks for clearing that up!
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re: The End of Foxing???
A question regarding immersion alternatives. Michael said,
"I did some localized "dabbing" on unused stamps that had just a tiny spot or two. The foxing was noticeably reduced, but not eliminated since the amount dabbed onto the area was minuscule and I didn't leave it on for too long a time. The areas that were dabbed did sustain gum damage, even though I did not rinse the stamp afterwards."
How did you "dab," Michael? Q-tips?
Has anyone experimented with (or thought about using) a syringe for applying the ammonia to small foxing spots. I've got syringes that I used for refilling printer cartridges years ago and wonder if those might be useful to treat small spots and minimize gum damage or loss on the stamps.
Tom
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re: The End of Foxing???
Remember that household ammonia is a solution of ammonia in water. Whatever water will do to a stamp, ammonia will as well.
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04:19:28pm
re: The End of Foxing???
"How did you "dab," Michael? Q-tips?"
Yes, but I squeezed out the excess fluid from the cotton tip to avoid spreading the fluid to areas that I did not want to get wet.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I tried a different approach last evening, Michael. Since my wife is gone for a few days, I worked in the kitchen and started out to learn how little ammonia I could use and still remove small foxing spots. I worked with four Nicaragua BoB stamps from a 1950s French album. Each had small, but relatively obvious foxing spots. All were used and without gum. Each was placed in my watermark tray one at a time. When I was finished with each stamp, I blotted them with paper towels and dried them between paper towels.
I used a 30ml syringe with a small needle (don't know the size of the needle), but drew only 1ml of ammonia from the ½-gallon jug. I applied small drops to the first stamp directly onto the single foxing spot without the needle touching the stamp. I repeatedly applied drops every 1-2 minutes for 10 minutes. There was not enough liquid in the tray for the stamp to float and no more than half the stamp ever got soaked. I turned the stamp over from time to time using tongs, sliding the stamp on the bottom of the tray in the process. There was not enough liquid to move the stamp by shaking the tray. Once the stamp was dry, the spot of foxing was less visible, but it is still there.
I did the same with the second stamp, applying the drops directly on the foxing spot each time, sometimes on the face and sometimes on the back. However, I applied the ammonia somewhat more liberally over a 15-minute period. I still used less than 1ml of liquid, but the entire stamp was soaked this time. The result was the same as with the first stamp.
The third and fourth stamps had a little more foxing. This time, I placed the full 1ml in the tray with each stamp separately. This was enough to soak and float the stamps when holding the tray at a slight angle. I could gently shake the tray and keep the stamp in motion in the liquid. I did this for about 15 seconds every minute or so for about 10 minutes. I added a little more liquid (½ml?) and repeated the process for another 2-3 minutes. With the first of these two stamps, I blotted it dry and let it dry somewhat while I worked on the second of these two stamps. Then I soaked that first stamp a second time for 2-3 minutes, agitating the liquid and the stamp several times during that period.
This test was slightly more successful. The coloring of the foxing spots is significantly diminished, but I can still easily find the spots with a loupe. The second soaking of the one stamp didn't seem to make any difference.
By using the small amounts of ammonia (no more than about 1½ ml), I rarely smelled it. However, I failed to eliminate all signs of the foxing on any of the four stamps.
I soaked a fifth Nicaragua BoB stamp that had very dirty perf edges. I used about 1ml of ammonia and soaked it for five minutes and agitated it occasionally. The appearance of the stamp is much improved. I would estimate 75% or more of the soiling is gone.
I was disappointed with the foxing test results. Maybe I was expecting too much?
Next, I'll experiment with some stamps with grungy backs and paper discoloration as Ningpo presented in this thread in late October. Those were impressive results.
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re: The End of Foxing???
"Next, I'll experiment with some stamps with grungy backs and paper discoloration as Ningpo presented in this thread in late October. Those were impressive results."
I may be throwing a spanner in the works here. I failed to state what I used for my 'laundry'. It wasn't ammonia, is was Chloromine T.
However, from the results you've described, you may be as successful using ammonia. I haven't yet tried it myself.
Although the use of hydrogen peroxide was discussed in another thread, I'll mention here that having just bought a bottle, I'll try another experiment to see if this chemical will do more than just reverse sulphurisation.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Thanks for that clarification, Ningpo! Although your results look great, I won't be buying another chemical to experiment with. I'll stick with the ammonia and HP. It would be interesting to see which might work better as a general cleaning agent for our stamps.
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01:46:37pm
re: The End of Foxing???
I put the ammonia and stamp in a small plastic container that has a top that seals tightly (the container I use is clear and actually the smallest size of those you get at a deli-counter when you buy potato salad and such). I want to keep the ammonia from evaporating into the air. I guess this is a make-shift sweatbox with the ammonia still contained. I don't know if the ammonia fumes in the container help maintain the ammonia strength in the solution. Maybe our resident chemist can answer that question.
Since ammonia doesn't cost that much, I add the liquid so that the stamp will float (maybe 1/2 inch of fluid) in the container. I want the stamp to float so that both sides of the paper get treated, and so I can agitate it now and then. I wonder how the results would be if the container was placed on a device that gently and constantly shook it.
I have seen similar results as you described of the foxing not being completely eliminated, especially with stamps that were heavily "foxicated" - I created a new word!. I think that different types of paper fibers will absorb the fluid differently. Absorbancy is the key here as to how well the ammonia cleans a stamp.
I have had no success using hydrogen peroxide to clean a stamp of foxing.
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04:15:51pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Ammonia in a sealed container
Yep, if you close the container, you keep the ammonia level in the liquid phase constant. It's less than what's in ther bottled ammonia, though. What happens is that the ammonia gas (NH3) goes into the air in the container until the air is saturated with ammonia gas. That sets up an equilibrium. With the air saturated, no more gaseous ammonia can escape the liquid phase.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I am following up on my post this morning with respect to the foxing tests on the Nicaragua stamps.
Of the four stamps with foxing that I tested last evening, I took the stamp that has the most foxing (both before and after that initial test) and placed it in a container. I used a Ziploc (brand name) plastic container measuring about 2" x 2" x 2" with a tight-fitting lid and placed about 3ml of ammonia in the container with the stamp. The lid fit tightly over the container.
I agitated the container several times during a 6-minute period. I opened the container to turn the stamp over (face down) and closed the container. I again agitated the container a few times over a 2-minute period.
I took the stamp out of the container, blotted it with the paper towels and let it dry between the paper towels.
I can see no difference in the foxing stain. The first test was somewhat helpful in lightening the stain, but this second test doesn't appear to have had any additional effect. The stain is still visible.
By the way, the first, third and fourth stamps in the initial tests were printed by American Bank Note Co. as was this test this evening. The second stamp in the initial tests was printed by Waterlow & Sons. I'm "0 for 4" in my foxing tests and need to find some stamps from other countries with foxing to test!
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12:09:34am
re: The End of Foxing???
I think things do get to a point on a stamp where the fungus has permanently damaged the paper. For me, getting the chance to stop the progression and possibly killing off the fungus should prevent possible contamination of other stamps. I think the cleaned stamp could be put in the album until a better example is obtained.
Foxing is often on tropical islands stamps. See if you have any foxing on those.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I think you are correct about the paper staining, Michael. I did a few more tests this morning. Each stamp shows some improvement, but the stains (faint in most cases) remained.
I tested two used copies of Azores Scott #25 rose color on chalky paper with black overprint and no gum. I placed each stamp in my plastic watermark tray. I applied small drops of ammonia on the foxing spots. Less than half the stamp was soaked in each case. The ammonia doesn't mix well with the ink on this chalky paper. When I blotted the stamps with the paper towels, they left pink ink stains on the paper towels. The surface of the stamps didn't appear to have been affected, but obviously it was. After the stamps had dried for about 20 minutes, I placed them in clean water in the small plastic Ziploc container I mentioned in a previous message. I let them soak for a couple of minutes and then blotted them again. There were no additional problems with the ink, either in the areas of the stamps where ammonia had been applied or the areas where no ammonia had been applied.
I tested a used but gummed copy of Mozambique Scott #22. This stamp also had a small paper hinge. I did this test in the small closed Ziploc container. I used about 3-4 ml of fresh ammonia. I agitated the ammonia several times and removed the stamp after about 5 minutes. I could see no indication that the ammonia affected the ink on this stamp. Of course the hinge and gum are now gone, but faint yellow staining remains.
I tested an unused copy of Liberia Scott #27 without gum using the same procedure that I used for the Mozambique stamp. Although the ammonia probably neutralized the foxing, faint yellow stains remained.
My results in recent days using hydrogen peroxide to treat stamps with sulphurization (often mistakenly called "oxidation") were more successful!
Tom
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10:14:15am
re: The End of Foxing???
It's important to remember that the primary ingredient of ammonia and hydrogen peroxide is water. Stamps printed with water soluble inks will not do well with these techniques.
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I've encountered problems more than once in the past when soaking classic stamps from various parts of the world. I knew the risk with these particular Portuguese stamps and wasn't concerned, but was curious because I had never before experimented with ammonia. Once I discovered how these two stamps reacted to being partly saturated with the ammonia, I was curious to see how they would react to plain old water when entirely soaked. I was surprised to find no further problem with the water soak. In this case, it seems the ammonia in the water was the problem rather than the water itself.
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10:29:36am
re: The End of Foxing???
When I did some basic testing on use of ammonia with various inks (one of the many posts above), I did not use a King Luiz era Portuguese stamp. I did have a King Carlos era in red and did try that one - with no ill effects. One difference - I did not blot the stamp. I placed all the ones I tested face up on absorbent paper and let them air dry.
The King Luiz issues were prior to the King Carlos issues, and they may well be printed with an older ink base formulation or a different pigment or dye may have been used for the red color. That's just guesswork - wouldn't know where to begin to find 150-year-old ink formulas. The chalky paper may come into play here also.
I'll see what I can find on this and look through my duplicates for a King Luiz era to sacrifice for the cause.
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05:56:07pm
re: The End of Foxing???
I'll start this out by apologizing for not taking before pictures. I wasn't intending for this to turn out to be an experiment.
Anyway, I had an old Austrian stamp (Scott #23) that had some serious, dark brown toning spots on it. I gave it a bath in ammonia. After about an hour, the toning was reduced by about 50%, but it was still very visible. I decided to let it soak for an extended period of time to see what would happen.
I checked on the stamp about every half hour. I would agitate the container to move the stamp about in the solution. I would also turn the stamp over. I repeated this many times, including after about three hours pouring out the ammonia, and adding fresh ammonia.
After three hours, the toning was reduced about 80% to 90%, with some spots entirely removed. I decided to leave the stamp in the covered container overnight to see what would happen and how the stamp would look in the morning.
About eight hours later (that makes it an 11 hour soak) I examined the stamp. The paper was fine and the ink was intact. The remaining toning spots showed little or no reduction in appearance.
I think this proves my thought that there comes a certain point where the toning affects the paper fibers so much that it is impossible to completely fix the problem. This also shows me that about three hours may be all that is needed to get the full effect of the ammonia treatment.
Here are after images showing both the front and back of the stamp:
The stamp is still a filler at best, if not an item to send to better send to the Holocaust Project, in my opinion.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Michael was kind enough to send this stamp to me. I decided to further experiment and this is the same stamp after a 30 second soak in household bleach, followed by a good rinse, dry and pressing. It completely removed the foxing. However, I'm not sure how much, if any, it might have altered the original color. Which would pose the question, should a stamp treated in this manner be considered as altered from original, or simply cleaned? Would this be an acceptable practice if the stamp were being sold, or would it warrant disclosure?
Just for the record, the stamp won't be sold and will be used to replace a really nasty copy that I've had in my collection since the early 70's.
Thanks Michael!
WB
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re: The End of Foxing???
"...should a stamp treated in this manner be considered as altered from original..."
Yes
"...would it warrant disclosure?"
Absolutely
Don
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I have done some more experimentation with using the clear household ammonia on stamps with foxing stains.
The first test was on a cut square, Scott U277, brown on white paper and produced in 1883 or 1884. It had a pair of small foxing spots near the upper left-hand corner and near the "M" in May. The ammonia treatment lasted 2-3 minutes and minor traces of the foxing stains remained. Unfortunately, the treatment noticeably altered the indicium, removing much of the red in the original ink color.
The second test involved two mint 1940s Liberia stamps, Scott #277 and #284. This image shows scans from the stamp faces that were produced about five years ago on my older scanner. Because I couldn't duplicate those images accurately with the newer scanner, I haven't tried to make before and after comparisons of the stamp faces. The foxing was more evident on the face of the #277 than on the #284 before the treatment.
After 1 minute in an open tray with ammonia covering the stamps, I rubbed the #277 gently between my thumb and forefinger along the top area of the stamp to determine if the gum was gone and discovered the stamp ink had become somewhat fugitive. I had done the same with the #284 with no apparent effect. The gum was gone from both stamps. I rinsed both stamps in cold water and blotted with a paper towel. The #277 left a tiny amount of blue ink on the paper towel, but the stamp doesn't appear to have been noticeably affected other than the removal of the stain and gum.
I count this a one failure and two successes. I'm guessing the foxing had been on the cut square for a very long time. So the stain is permanent. Considering that the Liberia stamps were not high value and had considerable foxing, the gum loss and reduced value were offset by the neutralization and virtually total removal of the foxing.
An interesting but unimportant side note. These Liberia stamps were part of a very complete collection I purchased in the 1980s. The collection stopped in the 1950s. The Scott #277-279 stamps were all unused and lightly hinged in a similar fashion, suggesting they had probably been together in the collection, probably since their initial purchase. However, only the #277 had foxing. The same collection contains the overprinted versions of these stamps and none of the three with overprints show any evidence of foxing.
Similarly, the #283-285 stamps were all mint never hinged and may have been kept together for the few years from the time they were originally purchased. However, only the middle stamp of those three shows any evidence of foxing.
Tom
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02:48:18pm
re: The End of Foxing???
>Robert - You're welcome.
I have not had success with bleach. However, I had not used bleach on a stamp after it had been in an ammonia bath. That is interesting.
I'm not sure, because it could be my monitor or the image, but did the color change on the Austrian stamp? The paper fibers sure did get cleaned!
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re: The End of Foxing???
Michael, I think it probably did, but not as much as it may appear in the scan. In hand it's not nearly as blue as it looks in the second set of pics and is actually more of a pastel green. Although I've never had a pristine copy to be able to make a comparison, I'd wager that the color was altered to some degree. At any rate, I still like it better without all those rusty brown spots.
WB
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04:06:57pm
re: The End of Foxing???
I agree. It looks nice.
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I just stumbled upon a newly updated online publication at AIC Wiki. It's all about foxing and the treatment of foxing. It was last updated 19 September 2017.
http://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/Foxing_(PCC)
The focus is on papers used in art, but it looks like it may provide some useful information regarding various treatment alternatives and their limitations.
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I see that selling Stamporama rule states “3. Describe your lots correctly. Identify all bogus, fake, forged, counterfeit, repaired or altered stamps, and all defects in the item description or title."
After reading this thread and the another thread regarding using 3M tape as a stamp 'hinge' I am wondering if stamps that have been chemically 'cleaned' or 3M 'hinged' are required to be described as such in the Auction and Approval section?
Don
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re: The End of Foxing???
Interesting questions, Don!
Although I haven't sold here at SoR, I'm always more inclined to get carried away when describing stamps for sale. And, when I was buying, I always appreciated the extra effort of other sellers.
Somewhere (here on SoR?) I saw someone's related question yesterday that may have been rhetorical. The gist of the question was: Is it "cleaning" when we soak used stamps to remove old hinge remnants? It's something that never occurred to me. I have seldom done that, but the question sure is worth including in a more general discussion of what full disclosure involves.
Don, I suppose your question would apply to modern stamps and their new adhesives as well. I stopped collecting before these things appeared and fortunately never dealt with the associated problems. However, I think I would want to know how such stamps had been handled if I were in the market to buy them today.
It's a slippery slope, and using the term "all" twice in that rule might be worth either reconsidering or explaining in more detail.
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re: The End of Foxing???
I believe it was Ningpo who mentioned experimenting with Chloramine-T to treat foxing. The online article I referenced yesterday says this about Chloramine-T.
"...This bleach has generally fallen from favour due to the difficulty in removing residues from the paper (Burgess 1988, 22)."
In the section titled "Observations on Current (1992) Conservation Practices," they stated the following.
Respondents most often mentioned using hydrogen peroxide as bleach of choice on foxing. Sun bleaching in water with calcium hydroxide added was also frequently cited. Reducing the foxing with sodium borohydride was the third most mentioned bleach. One respondent mentioned using chlorine bleaches when hydrogen peroxide could not be used due to presence of metal in paper. The following are examples:
Use 2% hydrogen peroxide (pH 8.5 with ammonium hydroxide and calcium hydroxide added). Use 3-4 applications drying between each application. Use hydrogen peroxide only until slight bubbling begins, then discard and mix new solution if necessary (SB).
Sunlight or sunlamps are used rather than a fluorescent light bank. Adding a few drops of hydrogen peroxide to the tray seems to catalyze the effect of light (NH).
Have used hydrogen peroxide in water-ethanol mixes on the suction table for charcoal or white chalk drawings which were badly foxed. Have sun bleached a foxed intaglio image by Albers in 75% ethanol, then washed in the same mix to great effect (JCW).
For artwork which cannot be immersed, wash art as possible (suction table, disk, or by floating) and light bleach by local wetting of foxed areas and exposing to light source. Mask sensitive areas. Rinse thoroughly as above (NH). One technique for shorter light. bleaching time is to locally bleach foxed spots with hydrogen peroxide, rinse, then place in sunlight bath. Conservators sometimes add a few drops of hydrogen peroxide to the bath used in light bleaching.
Some respondents noted that in some cases foxing could not be completely diminished and that they accepted a pale ghost-image of the stain rather than continue bleaching.
Respondents generally have noted few incidences of color reversion. Some noted reversion with hydrogen peroxide, but often attributed this to poor rinsing.
Some respondents stated they believe that chlorine bleaches to be useful on fungal foxing.
Respondents generally do not use a fungicide for foxing.
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re: The End of Foxing???
The question would be does a potential buyer expect to be informed? Would an expertizing note it?
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11:39:26am
re: The End of Foxing???
Don, where did you find the "rule" that you quoted above? That is not the current rule. If it is showing up somewhere on the site, I need to remove it.
Here is the current rule (Auctions):
C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Hi Michael,
I navigated to it earlier this morning but cannot seem to find it now, I assume that an old link somewhere is the culprit. I remember using the side menu first and then clicked on a drop down menu off one of the pages. Sorry.
It appears the rule I copied and pasted is now rule numbered C3, "Intentionally listing bogus, fake, forged, counterfeit, repaired or altered stamps as genuine is prohibited."
The issue at hand, and one that has been previously cover in other threads is, what does 'altered' mean? In one of your previous posts https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5680 you defined 'altered'...
""Probably the best definition is a stamp is altered any time someone does something to it that changes the stamp's appearance (for good or ill) from what it was before the change was made. A stamp can be altered many times by different collectors who own it through the years.""
That is a bit broad but I would definitely like to know if the stamps I purchase have been though anything more than a clean water bath or watermark fluid. I would indeed want to know if the stamp had an ammonia bath (and/or have had some type of weird ‘hinge’ gum removed from them). Ammonia also removes fountain pen ink, it can be used by those who intentionally wanting to commit fraud by removing manuscript cancels. (It is also used to clean fountain pens and remove fountain ink in clothes.) I looked but I didn’t see this mentioned in this thread but perhaps I missed it.
I wish Stamporama had an 'experiment' section that included a big Red caution note at the top telling folks the potential dangers. The power of social media cannot be underestimated, it would be bad if someone ruins their family heirlooms. I do love that folks experiment, this is how the hobby gets pushed forward. But even if I come up with a 'stamp hack' that shows results for me, it would take many years and many others (in different environmental conditions) to know that it was truly safe to do. And it just seems prudent to make really sure that everyone understand the implications.
Am I being over cautious?
Don
Edit: Wait, I found it, it is on the 'Tips' page not Rule page
https://stamporama.com/forms/display_form.php?id=aucselltip
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01:12:38pm
re: The End of Foxing???
OK, thanks for finding it. The tips are just that. The preamble to the tips section tells people to go to the rules and tutorials for full details. Links are provided for those.
It doesn't hurt to be cautious.
Regarding the issue, foxing is "staining". Some people in other countries call it by other names, like "rust". It's all the same, damage. I haven't seen any ammonia bath that completely removes it. Since we do not permit listing of damaged stamps with catalog values less than $5.00, none of this material should be appearing in the auctions anyway. If it does, then the auction lot will be closed. Rules for the approval books will be revised in the near future to also prohibit damaged stamps from being included in the books.
As far as the sales platforms go, let's just keep the damaged junk out of it.
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re: The End of Foxing???
Don's comment about the 'experiment' section just reminded me of a passing thought I had last night. Would it be possible to create some sort of area here for posting examples of items that ammonia, etc. have damaged? This came to mind after I rendered a fairly heavily foxed Nicaragua telegraph stamp worthless in an ammonia bath. First the blue overprint ink began to run and then the red stamp ink began to fade quickly before my eyes. It was the only copy I had, but it was already damaged by the foxing and I knew the risks. When I get the "after" version of this stamp scanned, I'll post a before and after that could be posted to a catalog of "warnings" to others who may be tempted to deal with foxing on some of the early stamps. Maybe we can help others avoid some of the risks.
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06:58:43pm
re: The End of Foxing???
Why not just create a thread in this topic? It can be a running thread like the SOR Diner and Antonius' stamp collection threads. Those work fine and people are used to such discussion threads.
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re: The End of Foxing???
When reading my posts on this topic, keep in mind the fact that my background in science is limited to introductory classes in chemistry and biology in high school over 50 years ago. So I am sharing the following without opinion.
Here are a couple of additional quotes from the article I mentioned a few posts back. Again, the focus is not philately, but books and artwork on paper. Here is the link again.
http://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/Foxing_(PCC)
Referring to relative humidity (RH), "Corte, Ferroni, et al in 2003 note collection environments should stay in the range of 40-60% RH to best avoid development of microorganisms and presentation of foxing marks (#CorteFerronietal2003Corte, Ferroni, et al. 2003, 172)."
"Generally, it has been found that growth increases with increasing temperature and decreases with decreasing temperature."
"Apparently dark storage produced the same pattern, color, and frequency of foxing as occasional exposure to light (Cain, Stanley and Roberts 1987, 24)."
(Referring to two models that purport to show how molds begin and then affect the paper and then die.)
"These models suggest that one reason why foxing stains do not cover an entire page might be that the acids secreted by the fungi collect, eventually reducing the pH enough to curtail further fungal growth."
The following may also be worth investigating, but is beyond my pay grade and needs to be interpreted by someone with a better scientific background.
Reduction of Staining
"Beckwith et al. determined that the content of material soluble in a weak base (4% aqueous solution of ammonium hydroxide) increased markedly in foxed areas as compared to unfoxed, and that this material is hygroscopic (Beckwith et al. 1940, 322). This may in part explain why foxed areas in paper absorb moisture first and most completely when a sheet is moistened. Gallo and Hey found that washing with alkaline water can attenuate, if not completely remove, many foxing marks. Deacidification, with half-saturated calcium hydroxide solution, was even more satisfactory (Gallo and Hey 1988, 102). However, many conservators would consider the pH of this solution too high (AK). Percentages as high as the four percent used by Beckwith et al. are not recommended for treating works of art on paper, though less concentrated alkaline solutions have been found useful for reducing foxing."
The following seems to summarize the authors' views on storing materials that have been, or may become, affected by foxing.
Environment
Housing
There is some experimental evidence that foxing will worsen over time if kept in a poor environment. As for any other damaged, brittle or inherently fragile materials, proper housing with non-acidic or buffered materials, non-damaging RH and temperatures and limited handling and exposure must be considered the first treatment step, which may mitigate further damage (Iiams and Beckwith 1935, 415-16).
Relative Humidity (RH)
Storing paper at a low RH is recommended as "the best precaution against foxing" (Daniels 1988, 93). See Fungal Activity.
Temperature
Fungi generally prefer temperatures of 25°C to 35°C, dependent on species. There is no indication that iron corrosion is temperature dependent. Often temperature in storage or exhibition spaces is determined by comfort zones for people, and it is therefore easier to regulate RH to avoid conditions which may further damage paper.
Ventilation
Good circulation is often mentioned as a deterrent to mold and air borne fungi especially in articles relating to libraries (Allsop 1985, 533).
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re: The End of Foxing???
Michael said,
"Why not just create a thread in this topic? It can be a running thread like the SOR Diner and Antonius' stamp collection threads. Those work fine and people are used to such discussion threads."
OK, if that's the best way to approach this. However, there are others here who would be better at providing an introductory post or two. Then, we could all begin posting our experiments that demonstrate the dangers that I believe Don was referring to.
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