Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Which category do you feel is more appropriate and why?
Are there any other countries or territories that are tricky to place?
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Republic is Western Europe; northern Ireland remains part of GB
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12:13:24pm
Were I able to ask my maternal grandfather, he would say, " Western Europe be dammed, and the bloody English as well !" ( Extended string of profanity deleted.) He was sort of opinionated.
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Just a suggestion, but why not post the early Irish Stamps in both the Commonwealth and Western Europe, that should satisfy those who search for the early issues.
Once Independence from Great Britain was achieved, I think they should be listed in Western Europe.
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I am not sure if pre-1922 Irish stamps were British Commonwealth issues. Wasn’t Ireland a part of Great Britain until independence in June 1922?
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In Approval Books you can list in only one area. So you chose!
Rrr...
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My paternal side is Irish, so I understand,as well as find my initial response to be, anything but the damn imperialist Commonwealth. But the occupation issues through 1922 definitely belong with the British commonwealth issues. Ireland definitely has not accepted membership in that group.
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Ireland was technically part of the British Commonwealth until 1948 as the Irish Free State,but was forced to leave the Commonwealth when it declared itself a republic ( at that time republics were not permitted to remain in the Commonwealth). When this condition was repealed (very shortly after) Ireland chose not to reapply for membership.
Philatelic conventional thinking on this side of the pond tends to view Ireland as Commonwealth purely so as not to artificially divide the country.
Malcolm
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Here's a thought... drop the British Commonwealth.
At the shop I am a manager at, Chris Green Stamps, in Ottawa, Ont. Canada; we have all our stamps by Scott in three sections: Canada (the most popular), United States, and Foreign. The British Commonwealth is mixed in with the Foreign. Why?
Well, Scott has not separated out the British Commonwealth countries in their catalogue in twenty years. As well, fewer customers collect the British Commowealth; and with the entry of Rwanda (a former Belgian colony) into the Commonwealth, as well as South Sudan asking to join; it's all a bit of a joke.
Keep in mind that there have been a few member nations either booted out, or left on their own accord.
David
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07:29:47pm
Also members of the Commonwealth are Cameroon and Mozambique.
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12:33:32pm
Trying to untangle national identities by Philatelic and Geographic associations is a Philatelic Gordian Knot.
It eventually requires the diligent use of a sharp Xiphos.
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I think the Irish would say Western Europe..with the exception of Northern Ireland.
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I am an Irish citizen so I guess I qualify in the "if you ask the Irish...." category....as noted in the original post.
To be clear, Republic of Ireland has no connexion to the Commonwealth.
Indeed I think the term "British" Commonwealth is no longer officially used.
Ireland did have "Dominion" status (like Canada, New Zealand, Australia) for some years after independence but this is clearly no longer the case.
As an Irish citizen, it DID bother me somewhat in the 1970s, 1980s but frankly within the context of Stamp Collecting, it is no big deal to me in 2016. Consistency ...continuity ...is probably more important in this context. Ireland has been around for a very long time in a varierty of identities and likely to remain that way.
Nothing will stay the same and in fifty years time, things will be different, a so called European identity has emerged.
Again in purely stamp collecting terms, British stamps had been used all over Ireland from 1840 to 1922 (and even the overprints are not strictly "Irish") so within Irish collecting the topic "GB used in Ireland" is very much part of the narrative.
Remember of course that the postmarks pre independence were in English rather than in Gaelic and several towns eg Kingstown, Queenstown, Maryborough were deemed inappropriate in the new State....and re-named. And of course the first twenty years of the 20th century is the "golden age of the postcard" and again a crossover for most Irish collectors like myself.
The position of "Northern Ireland" where I reside is different, an "integral part of the United Kingdom" is of course different but in stamp collecting terms, its hardly relevant. There are no Northern Ireland stamps...only "regionals" which are almost impossible to buy in local post offices anyway.
To be honest, the question of "which catalogue" is not something that would cause much of a problem to the average Irish citizen. The narrative of a "totality of relations" between Britain and Ireland is now normal...there are all sorts of strange historical legacies such as the governance of Lighthouses and Lifeboats....and institutions such as the "Royal" Irish Academy or the "Royal" Dublin Society ...where the Dublin Horse Show is held. And where the annual Irish Stamp Exhibition (Stampa) is usually held. This years event is NOT being held there.
Ironically perhaps in the North...where politics is more febrile and a considerable number of people who proclaim themselves (quite legally in eyes of both nations) as "Irish", the issue would likely ruffle more feathers than in the Republic.
But to stamp collectors in Ireland....either side of the border....its a non-issue.
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Yes I can understand the annoyance at that.
To deny the nations existence is just insulting and certainly I would have experienced some insults/patronising attitude when I was younger when some regarded Ireland as the "Third World". Personally I blame "The Quiet Man" movie. 
People tend to forget that Ireland is a comparatively young nation. The Republic was in fact declared 100 years ago and the nation itself regards 1916 as the starting point. And there are of course people who are older than the nation itself.
Contrary to appearances, I am NOT older than the nation.
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Canadians have long associated the Newfoundland Colony as "West" and Malta as "East" within the Atlantic Region of the British Commonwealth.
Therefore, to us Ireland would be part of the "Middle East".
Better double-check with rrrrrrrrrrRaphy first.
Dave.
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"Better double-check with rrrrrrrrrrRaphy first."
As a founding member of the East Pole Exploration Society I can assure you that, like hand size, it does matter where you put it!
rrr...
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Geez Ralph.
I'm not sure what you were implying, but from my inference this post may be deleted by The Moderator... Sounds kinda racy...
Dave.
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With John (FitzjamesHorse) bringing up the fact that Ireland is only 100 years old, it brought to mind that quite a few of the countries that we take for granted are really quite young. Australia has only been an independent country since 1901. Canada only obtained independence from the UK in 1931 with full sovereignty being attained in 1982. Interesting how the world changes.
Regards ... Tim.
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Interesting that in the 21st century many of the old animosities from the days of "Terrorists or Freedom Fighters", national identities, and old rivalries seem to be less important - other than to those wishing to make mischief !
A regrettable side effect of the Brexit referendum is the way that the crazies,racists and assorted right wing low lifes have taken this as a green light to perpetrate their obnoxious views on the rest of us.
It is fair to say that probably all Racists voted Brexit, but that by no means all of those who voted Brexit are Racist.
Most ordinary people are less concerned with old enmities, and more concerned with the quality of life in their own society.
I am an old world collector, and I don't subscribe to either in or out of the BC for Ireland - I am lucky enough to have sufficient stamps for it to be a stand-alone album.
However in my postmark collection I do consider GB stamps with postmarks of a locality currently in the Republic to be Irish postmarks, while the same stamp and postmark in my stamp collection would be considered GB. What you can conclude from that other than a split personality I don't know !!
Malcolm
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02:20:05am
My maternal grandfather, a Kearney from Westmeath, always referred to Occupied Northern Ireland", often enough that for years I thought that was the correct designation. Fortunately he went to his just reward without ever seeing my Machin collection and the number of images of the Queen it contains.
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This is a somewhat tricky question. I notice that Stamporama auction and approval lots for Irish material can be found here under either category. Yes, the first issue of Ireland is a series of overprints of British stamps, but when they were issued, they were not a part of the Commonwealth. Most catalogs now place the Republic of Ireland under Western Europe, and if you ask the Irish, well, I bet you know what their answer will be! But, British stamps were the valid postage for Ireland from 1848 until 1922. Specialty collections such as perfins and cancels will undoubtedly contain many British issues. It isn't important where a seller places them, but it makes for an interesting discussion to decide which is the more appropriate category.
Which category do you feel is more appropriate and why?
Are there any other countries or territories that are tricky to place?
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Republic is Western Europe; northern Ireland remains part of GB
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
15 Dec 2015
12:13:24pm
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Were I able to ask my maternal grandfather, he would say, " Western Europe be dammed, and the bloody English as well !" ( Extended string of profanity deleted.) He was sort of opinionated.
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Just a suggestion, but why not post the early Irish Stamps in both the Commonwealth and Western Europe, that should satisfy those who search for the early issues.
Once Independence from Great Britain was achieved, I think they should be listed in Western Europe.
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
I am not sure if pre-1922 Irish stamps were British Commonwealth issues. Wasn’t Ireland a part of Great Britain until independence in June 1922?
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
In Approval Books you can list in only one area. So you chose!
Rrr...
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
My paternal side is Irish, so I understand,as well as find my initial response to be, anything but the damn imperialist Commonwealth. But the occupation issues through 1922 definitely belong with the British commonwealth issues. Ireland definitely has not accepted membership in that group.
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01:35:56pm
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Ireland was technically part of the British Commonwealth until 1948 as the Irish Free State,but was forced to leave the Commonwealth when it declared itself a republic ( at that time republics were not permitted to remain in the Commonwealth). When this condition was repealed (very shortly after) Ireland chose not to reapply for membership.
Philatelic conventional thinking on this side of the pond tends to view Ireland as Commonwealth purely so as not to artificially divide the country.
Malcolm
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this post
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Here's a thought... drop the British Commonwealth.
At the shop I am a manager at, Chris Green Stamps, in Ottawa, Ont. Canada; we have all our stamps by Scott in three sections: Canada (the most popular), United States, and Foreign. The British Commonwealth is mixed in with the Foreign. Why?
Well, Scott has not separated out the British Commonwealth countries in their catalogue in twenty years. As well, fewer customers collect the British Commowealth; and with the entry of Rwanda (a former Belgian colony) into the Commonwealth, as well as South Sudan asking to join; it's all a bit of a joke.
Keep in mind that there have been a few member nations either booted out, or left on their own accord.
David
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
21 Dec 2015
07:29:47pm
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Also members of the Commonwealth are Cameroon and Mozambique.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
24 Dec 2015
12:33:32pm
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Trying to untangle national identities by Philatelic and Geographic associations is a Philatelic Gordian Knot.
It eventually requires the diligent use of a sharp Xiphos.
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
I think the Irish would say Western Europe..with the exception of Northern Ireland.
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06:36:58am
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
I am an Irish citizen so I guess I qualify in the "if you ask the Irish...." category....as noted in the original post.
To be clear, Republic of Ireland has no connexion to the Commonwealth.
Indeed I think the term "British" Commonwealth is no longer officially used.
Ireland did have "Dominion" status (like Canada, New Zealand, Australia) for some years after independence but this is clearly no longer the case.
As an Irish citizen, it DID bother me somewhat in the 1970s, 1980s but frankly within the context of Stamp Collecting, it is no big deal to me in 2016. Consistency ...continuity ...is probably more important in this context. Ireland has been around for a very long time in a varierty of identities and likely to remain that way.
Nothing will stay the same and in fifty years time, things will be different, a so called European identity has emerged.
Again in purely stamp collecting terms, British stamps had been used all over Ireland from 1840 to 1922 (and even the overprints are not strictly "Irish") so within Irish collecting the topic "GB used in Ireland" is very much part of the narrative.
Remember of course that the postmarks pre independence were in English rather than in Gaelic and several towns eg Kingstown, Queenstown, Maryborough were deemed inappropriate in the new State....and re-named. And of course the first twenty years of the 20th century is the "golden age of the postcard" and again a crossover for most Irish collectors like myself.
The position of "Northern Ireland" where I reside is different, an "integral part of the United Kingdom" is of course different but in stamp collecting terms, its hardly relevant. There are no Northern Ireland stamps...only "regionals" which are almost impossible to buy in local post offices anyway.
To be honest, the question of "which catalogue" is not something that would cause much of a problem to the average Irish citizen. The narrative of a "totality of relations" between Britain and Ireland is now normal...there are all sorts of strange historical legacies such as the governance of Lighthouses and Lifeboats....and institutions such as the "Royal" Irish Academy or the "Royal" Dublin Society ...where the Dublin Horse Show is held. And where the annual Irish Stamp Exhibition (Stampa) is usually held. This years event is NOT being held there.
Ironically perhaps in the North...where politics is more febrile and a considerable number of people who proclaim themselves (quite legally in eyes of both nations) as "Irish", the issue would likely ruffle more feathers than in the Republic.
But to stamp collectors in Ireland....either side of the border....its a non-issue.
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11:19:03am
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Yes I can understand the annoyance at that.
To deny the nations existence is just insulting and certainly I would have experienced some insults/patronising attitude when I was younger when some regarded Ireland as the "Third World". Personally I blame "The Quiet Man" movie.
People tend to forget that Ireland is a comparatively young nation. The Republic was in fact declared 100 years ago and the nation itself regards 1916 as the starting point. And there are of course people who are older than the nation itself.
Contrary to appearances, I am NOT older than the nation.
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Canadians have long associated the Newfoundland Colony as "West" and Malta as "East" within the Atlantic Region of the British Commonwealth.
Therefore, to us Ireland would be part of the "Middle East".
Better double-check with rrrrrrrrrrRaphy first.
Dave.
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this post
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
"Better double-check with rrrrrrrrrrRaphy first."
As a founding member of the East Pole Exploration Society I can assure you that, like hand size, it does matter where you put it!
rrr...
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re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Geez Ralph.
I'm not sure what you were implying, but from my inference this post may be deleted by The Moderator... Sounds kinda racy...
Dave.
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this post
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
With John (FitzjamesHorse) bringing up the fact that Ireland is only 100 years old, it brought to mind that quite a few of the countries that we take for granted are really quite young. Australia has only been an independent country since 1901. Canada only obtained independence from the UK in 1931 with full sovereignty being attained in 1982. Interesting how the world changes.
Regards ... Tim.
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10:59:29am
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
Interesting that in the 21st century many of the old animosities from the days of "Terrorists or Freedom Fighters", national identities, and old rivalries seem to be less important - other than to those wishing to make mischief !
A regrettable side effect of the Brexit referendum is the way that the crazies,racists and assorted right wing low lifes have taken this as a green light to perpetrate their obnoxious views on the rest of us.
It is fair to say that probably all Racists voted Brexit, but that by no means all of those who voted Brexit are Racist.
Most ordinary people are less concerned with old enmities, and more concerned with the quality of life in their own society.
I am an old world collector, and I don't subscribe to either in or out of the BC for Ireland - I am lucky enough to have sufficient stamps for it to be a stand-alone album.
However in my postmark collection I do consider GB stamps with postmarks of a locality currently in the Republic to be Irish postmarks, while the same stamp and postmark in my stamp collection would be considered GB. What you can conclude from that other than a split personality I don't know !!
Malcolm
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
28 Oct 2016
02:20:05am
re: Should Ireland be listed under Western Europe or British Commonwealth?
My maternal grandfather, a Kearney from Westmeath, always referred to Occupied Northern Ireland", often enough that for years I thought that was the correct designation. Fortunately he went to his just reward without ever seeing my Machin collection and the number of images of the Queen it contains.
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