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Europe/Other : Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

 

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Guthrum
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11 Dec 2015
06:42:47pm
The 'Liberation of Transylvania' issues of Romania (February 1945, SG1652-1662 - sorry, no other numbers) feature views of the countryside, churches, municipal and vernacular buildings, etc., accompanied by inset portraits of national heroes.

Stanley Gibbons helpfully identifies these heroes, but not the Transylvanian views they overlook. Can anyone assist here - perhaps Scott or Michel are more forthcoming?

(Interesting how countries about to be occupied - in this case by the Soviets - tend to feature national heroes on their stamps! But it is the places I want to know about.)

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

11 Dec 2015
08:13:18pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Below are the stamps in question, Scott #'s 558-567. Scott also names the people on the stamps but not the scenes. When I have questions like this, I Google. I would Google the name of the person and look for info that might disclose the scene. I would imagine the people are very well connected to the scenes, birthplaces etc.
Image Not Found

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nigelc
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11 Dec 2015
08:32:22pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Hi Guthrum,

This is what I can find online:

25 bani - Orthodox Cathedral at Cluj

50 bani - Cluj Opera House

4.5 lei - Fortified church in Archita

11 lei - Turda Gorge

(15 lei - seal)

31 lei - Cluj University

35 lei - Birth place of Avram Iancu (formerly in the village of Vidra de Sus which was renamed as Avram Iancu).

41 lei - Blaj Chapel

55 lei - Tower at Campeni (I haven't found confirmation of this but the location looks right for the three revolutionaries).

61 lei - Fortified church in Viscri

(75+75 lei - map)

I hope this helps as a start.

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Guthrum
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12 Dec 2015
10:32:56am
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Thank you both,gentlemen, for your advice and input on this problem. Indeed, I had only just made the original post when I started looking for clues on Google Image (perhaps you were doing that at the same time, Nigel!), and although I didn't decide to connect the places with the names as Mitch advised, I did come up with the following within an hour or so.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

These two are the Orthodox Cathedral at Cluj (left) and the Opera House in the same city. (I think you may have transposed these, Nigel.)

Image Not Found

This is the fortified church at Archita, which Nigel and I will have got very quickly.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

I'm going to go with my identification of this as the Bicaz River Gorge. The modern photo shows a new road put through and some clearing of the right-hand river bank, so I'm guessing, but I can't find a better match by searching for the Turda Gorge.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

These two are easy: the seal of Mihail Viteazul (whom SG calls, confusingly, Prince Michael) and the University at Cluj.

Image Not Found

This one is taken from a contemporary postcard and shows 'a traditional house in the Apuseni Mountains'. There's not much evidence that it is Avram Iancu's birthplace except for a single attribution on Pinterest, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

This one was difficult. I'm fairly sure it isn't Blaj Chapel (the only attribution being a posting on Colnect in Arabic), and guess that it's the church at Desesti (which also has a connection with Barnutiu). I'm going to jump over the next one and move to the last two, about which there is no doubt:

Image Not Found Image Not Found

This is the fortified church at Viscri (left), and a map of Transylvania, which I've just realised may in fact pinpoint all these places. I'll check that, because of the last stamp:

Image Not Found

This has resisted all efforts at identification! It isn't even very clear what it depicts: a standing stone, a cross, a tower, a border post... Its likeness is nowhere on the internet, and I assume whatever it is has been demolished since 1944. I could find only two images of the stamp on the net - both mentioning the trio of heroes depicted, neither the place shown. I have tested Nigel's suggestion of Campeni with no luck, and tried all other connections. I'm afraid it must remain as 'unidentified'.

I hope these attributions are of some use to anyone else but me - I can't be the only one who likes to know what I'm being shown on a stamp. I have brief notes on all the men shown in the portraits: if you need that please message me through the usual channels.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

12 Dec 2015
02:25:36pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Transylvania is one of those places that changed hands at the Treaty of Versailles. I had been Hungarian, with strong ethnic Hungarian and German (DanubeSchwabbes) population. Hungarians and Romanians have traditionally had little love for one another, and the transfer made for a miserable lives among the ethnic Hungarians stranded there. Those people, mostly rural farmers, live much like they did a century earlier, but without a sympathetic government.


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Ningpo
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12 Dec 2015
08:53:13pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Might there be a possibility that the 'monument' shown on the 55 Lei stamp, commemorates the defeat of the Austrian Imperial Army on 27th November 1784 at Brad? The terrain shown suggests a place further afield from Alba Julia in a more mountainous region.

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Guthrum
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13 Dec 2015
12:51:12pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

There might indeed be such a possibility, but I reckon I've seen every single image posted under Transylvania, tower, memorial, cross, monument, building and old postcards in existence in the past 48 hours! Nothing even close.

'Brad' is one those annoying placenames which renders a google search so cluttered that even if you '-pitt' you are wading through a world of irrelevant material. And the more I look at my photo of 'Desesti' above the less I like it for the 41 lei stamp.

However, I've printed my page, affixed the stamps and am now moving on! Thanks for all your help. Happy


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Ningpo
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13 Dec 2015
02:01:15pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

"....but I reckon I've seen every single image posted under Transylvania, tower, memorial, cross, monument, building and old postcards in existence in the past 48 hours! Nothing even close."



Me too. What I did find, which no doubt you did too, was an image giving some idea of the construction of the monument. I was puzzled by the apparent 'capstone' shown on the stamp:

Image Not Found

I have never seen this style before. Anyway, as you said, time to move on.

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Guthrum
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13 Dec 2015
04:44:06pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

"Just when I thought I was out - they pull me back in..."

I'm just fascinated by that 'Heroes of the Romanian Revolution' cross, with its CP and (if I read it aright) an 'INRI' at the top. Confused

What is the King of the Jews doing on what looks like a communist style of capped-cross monument?

...

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Ningpo
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14 Dec 2015
09:49:47pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

"What is the King of the Jews doing on what looks like a communist style of capped-cross monument?"



Is this a rather subtle dual purpose monument? An acknowledgement of the Jewish population that was?

From this site: Romania Jewish Tours. Note the comment about communist dictatorship.

"Before the second world war, the jewish life in Romania was a good one, with up to 800, 000 numbering the population.....

From the 800,000 who lived in Romania before the holocaust, about half survived. Under the Communist dictatorship almost all left the country. Today in Romania there exists around 10,000 jews, half of whom live in Bucharest and 75% of those are now living in old age."



If you look under the 'Jewish Heritage Bucharest' section and read through the current head count in proximity to each synagogue, the numbers are quite astonishing.

Excuse me for taking this thread down a side track.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

15 Dec 2015
10:21:25am
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

INRI was the Roman acronym for Jesus, King of the Jews, but, while referring to a "Jew," it's Christian iconography. No Jew, at least that I know of, would have that in his/her house, but every Christian house that allows for crucifixes would.

anyway, my long-winded way of saying this has nothing to do with the Jews (and everything to do with one Jew).

David

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malcolm197

21 Dec 2015
07:25:45pm
re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

I think the cross shape might be some sort of building(castle ?). If you look below and to the left there appears to be another building in the trees to give you some idea of the scale.

Malcolm

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Guthrum

11 Dec 2015
06:42:47pm

The 'Liberation of Transylvania' issues of Romania (February 1945, SG1652-1662 - sorry, no other numbers) feature views of the countryside, churches, municipal and vernacular buildings, etc., accompanied by inset portraits of national heroes.

Stanley Gibbons helpfully identifies these heroes, but not the Transylvanian views they overlook. Can anyone assist here - perhaps Scott or Michel are more forthcoming?

(Interesting how countries about to be occupied - in this case by the Soviets - tend to feature national heroes on their stamps! But it is the places I want to know about.)

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
11 Dec 2015
08:13:18pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Below are the stamps in question, Scott #'s 558-567. Scott also names the people on the stamps but not the scenes. When I have questions like this, I Google. I would Google the name of the person and look for info that might disclose the scene. I would imagine the people are very well connected to the scenes, birthplaces etc.
Image Not Found

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1 Member
likes this post.
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mitch.seymourfamily. ...
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nigelc

11 Dec 2015
08:32:22pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Hi Guthrum,

This is what I can find online:

25 bani - Orthodox Cathedral at Cluj

50 bani - Cluj Opera House

4.5 lei - Fortified church in Archita

11 lei - Turda Gorge

(15 lei - seal)

31 lei - Cluj University

35 lei - Birth place of Avram Iancu (formerly in the village of Vidra de Sus which was renamed as Avram Iancu).

41 lei - Blaj Chapel

55 lei - Tower at Campeni (I haven't found confirmation of this but the location looks right for the three revolutionaries).

61 lei - Fortified church in Viscri

(75+75 lei - map)

I hope this helps as a start.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Guthrum

12 Dec 2015
10:32:56am

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Thank you both,gentlemen, for your advice and input on this problem. Indeed, I had only just made the original post when I started looking for clues on Google Image (perhaps you were doing that at the same time, Nigel!), and although I didn't decide to connect the places with the names as Mitch advised, I did come up with the following within an hour or so.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

These two are the Orthodox Cathedral at Cluj (left) and the Opera House in the same city. (I think you may have transposed these, Nigel.)

Image Not Found

This is the fortified church at Archita, which Nigel and I will have got very quickly.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

I'm going to go with my identification of this as the Bicaz River Gorge. The modern photo shows a new road put through and some clearing of the right-hand river bank, so I'm guessing, but I can't find a better match by searching for the Turda Gorge.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

These two are easy: the seal of Mihail Viteazul (whom SG calls, confusingly, Prince Michael) and the University at Cluj.

Image Not Found

This one is taken from a contemporary postcard and shows 'a traditional house in the Apuseni Mountains'. There's not much evidence that it is Avram Iancu's birthplace except for a single attribution on Pinterest, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

This one was difficult. I'm fairly sure it isn't Blaj Chapel (the only attribution being a posting on Colnect in Arabic), and guess that it's the church at Desesti (which also has a connection with Barnutiu). I'm going to jump over the next one and move to the last two, about which there is no doubt:

Image Not Found Image Not Found

This is the fortified church at Viscri (left), and a map of Transylvania, which I've just realised may in fact pinpoint all these places. I'll check that, because of the last stamp:

Image Not Found

This has resisted all efforts at identification! It isn't even very clear what it depicts: a standing stone, a cross, a tower, a border post... Its likeness is nowhere on the internet, and I assume whatever it is has been demolished since 1944. I could find only two images of the stamp on the net - both mentioning the trio of heroes depicted, neither the place shown. I have tested Nigel's suggestion of Campeni with no luck, and tried all other connections. I'm afraid it must remain as 'unidentified'.

I hope these attributions are of some use to anyone else but me - I can't be the only one who likes to know what I'm being shown on a stamp. I have brief notes on all the men shown in the portraits: if you need that please message me through the usual channels.

Like
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this post
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
12 Dec 2015
02:25:36pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Transylvania is one of those places that changed hands at the Treaty of Versailles. I had been Hungarian, with strong ethnic Hungarian and German (DanubeSchwabbes) population. Hungarians and Romanians have traditionally had little love for one another, and the transfer made for a miserable lives among the ethnic Hungarians stranded there. Those people, mostly rural farmers, live much like they did a century earlier, but without a sympathetic government.


Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
Members Picture
Ningpo

12 Dec 2015
08:53:13pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

Might there be a possibility that the 'monument' shown on the 55 Lei stamp, commemorates the defeat of the Austrian Imperial Army on 27th November 1784 at Brad? The terrain shown suggests a place further afield from Alba Julia in a more mountainous region.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Guthrum

13 Dec 2015
12:51:12pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

There might indeed be such a possibility, but I reckon I've seen every single image posted under Transylvania, tower, memorial, cross, monument, building and old postcards in existence in the past 48 hours! Nothing even close.

'Brad' is one those annoying placenames which renders a google search so cluttered that even if you '-pitt' you are wading through a world of irrelevant material. And the more I look at my photo of 'Desesti' above the less I like it for the 41 lei stamp.

However, I've printed my page, affixed the stamps and am now moving on! Thanks for all your help. Happy


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Members Picture
Ningpo

13 Dec 2015
02:01:15pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

"....but I reckon I've seen every single image posted under Transylvania, tower, memorial, cross, monument, building and old postcards in existence in the past 48 hours! Nothing even close."



Me too. What I did find, which no doubt you did too, was an image giving some idea of the construction of the monument. I was puzzled by the apparent 'capstone' shown on the stamp:

Image Not Found

I have never seen this style before. Anyway, as you said, time to move on.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Guthrum

13 Dec 2015
04:44:06pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

"Just when I thought I was out - they pull me back in..."

I'm just fascinated by that 'Heroes of the Romanian Revolution' cross, with its CP and (if I read it aright) an 'INRI' at the top. Confused

What is the King of the Jews doing on what looks like a communist style of capped-cross monument?

...

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Ningpo

14 Dec 2015
09:49:47pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

"What is the King of the Jews doing on what looks like a communist style of capped-cross monument?"



Is this a rather subtle dual purpose monument? An acknowledgement of the Jewish population that was?

From this site: Romania Jewish Tours. Note the comment about communist dictatorship.

"Before the second world war, the jewish life in Romania was a good one, with up to 800, 000 numbering the population.....

From the 800,000 who lived in Romania before the holocaust, about half survived. Under the Communist dictatorship almost all left the country. Today in Romania there exists around 10,000 jews, half of whom live in Bucharest and 75% of those are now living in old age."



If you look under the 'Jewish Heritage Bucharest' section and read through the current head count in proximity to each synagogue, the numbers are quite astonishing.

Excuse me for taking this thread down a side track.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
15 Dec 2015
10:21:25am

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

INRI was the Roman acronym for Jesus, King of the Jews, but, while referring to a "Jew," it's Christian iconography. No Jew, at least that I know of, would have that in his/her house, but every Christian house that allows for crucifixes would.

anyway, my long-winded way of saying this has nothing to do with the Jews (and everything to do with one Jew).

David

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
malcolm197

21 Dec 2015
07:25:45pm

re: Charming Views of Transylvania - but what are they?

I think the cross shape might be some sort of building(castle ?). If you look below and to the left there appears to be another building in the trees to give you some idea of the scale.

Malcolm

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