Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
04:03:17pm
For this period, (on a Japanese language cancel only) add 1925 to the first number.
Roy
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04:58:27pm
For a full treatment of Japanese cancels (re: date structure), see my post in this thread:
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5668#79948
Roy
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Peter --
I was just checking on those stamps in the Japan Specialized catalog, because it prices FDCs as well as Japanese Occupation cancels. (Your cancel is from Hong Kong, but I'm sure you knew that already.)
It is interesting that the first days of issues for the stamps themselves, in Japan, is earlier, but I suspect that this is a first day of issue in Hong Kong, after Japan occupied it.
A specialist far beyond my scope could hopefully confirm this for you.
However, I am the admin for a small specialized Japanese philately group on Facebook, and I _think_ this is an area of interest for one of the participants in Japan. May I post your images there and see what kind of discussion it brings up?
And if you're on FB, I can make you a member of the group. Just PM me your FB info.
-- Dave
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Thanks, Peter. I'll do that and let you know what I learn, if anything.
Thanks also for knowing those dates. I figured it would be something like that, but was a little short on time to research it myself at the moment.
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Here's another first day of re-opening but unusually on a Japanese PSC:
Mr Manton sure was a busy chap. (Another one identical to yours Peter, sold a couple of days ago).
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As stated above, the Kong Kong GPO opened 22nd January 1942, as did Kowloon Central Post Office. Look out for all other similar covers from these other post offices (assuming that you can find a translation for the Japanese CDS's but on different dates:
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Peter, I forgot to say what an attractive Japanese Occupation cover that is. It's actually the first I have seen (even in a catalogue). Just as a side note; the 1 sen orange (the right-most stamp) is curiously from the 1914 issue. Perhaps the arrival in Hong Kong of the 1 sen orange brown, which shows rice-harvesting) was delayed.
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Thanks for the detailed PO openings!
As to the stamps on the "FDC" I also note that these were early in the war so they don't have the HK overprint characteristic of later official occupation stamps, and not all of these were so overprinted.
Cheers,
Peter
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Ningpo, that's a very helpful chart!!
Did you assemble it yourself, or is it from a reference source?
Thanks!
-- Dave
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I reformatted some details from F W Webb's, The philatelic & Postal History of Hong Kong. As it's not possible to tabulate here, I put them into a Word document and took a screen shot.
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One of the things on my endless list of To Do's, is to create a 'starting' reference for Hong Kong post offices under Japanese rule. This will just show examples of each Japanese CDS with the corresponding Hong Kong post office and any other snippets.
A frustration of mine, is that information is all over the place; most of which is not in a convenient or user friendly format. Although one or two authors have produced readable reference books, others should have employed someone else who knew how to write and present.
All too often, a lot of information is provided in narrative form, where a good quality image would be sufficient.
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Such a list would be very helpful; I, for one, would love to see the final product. If I can help compile it, let me know. I know you probably have this, but I found the publication by Ming Tsang helpful: Hong Kong Japanese Occupation and Mr. H. da Luz.
((Edited to add reference))
Peter
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Ningpo: Thanks very much for that reply! Very helpful!
I, too, would be interested in seeing something like an organized reference with that info.
If I can find this information from Japanese sources, I will let you know.
-- Dave
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"...but I found the publication by Ming Tsang helpful: Hong Kong Japanese Occupation and ⇒ Mr. H. da Luz. â‡"
Most of my Japanese occupation covers, seem to be from the H. da Luz stable. I am assuming that he and Mr Manton (see your first day of opening cover) were very much on the ball and produced these in numbers. In other words these were all philatelic in nature. Examples of other (unrelated to Japanese occupation) covers were produced too.
Am I right in this assumption?
Edit:
Peter is that a different book to Tsang's one on forgeries? Either way, I still don't have any of Tsang's publications. I have been dithering over his book on forgeries, as the examples you kindly sent me seem to illustrate my point about 'others should have employed someone else who knew how to write and present.'
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Ming Tsang notes in the Japanese Occupation booklet that this is the fourth monograph of the series published by the HK Stamp Society. Here are the four:
HK Registration Labels
HK Security Markings
HK Forgeries
and this one, Japanese Occupation. I have only the last two.
This book is divided into three parts:
1. HK Japanese Occupation Postal History
2. H. da Luz Wartime Memoirs
3. da Luz covers
Part 2 is a very illuminating personal recollection of the attack, invasion, and occupation by the Japanese.
As an aside, my parents had moved to Macau by the time of the Japanese attack but several of their relatives continued to live in HK (excluding those imprisoned as Allied forces, of course). These got to know Mr. da Luz and my mother noted stories of how he would rush to the post office at any new stamp issue (including during the occupation) and get a cancel on the first day. I'm not sure if his covers could be characterized as philatelic cancels in the sense that they were the "regular" postal cancels; but they can in the sense of "canceled but not used for postage."
As to his style of Ming Tsang's writing, I would hesitate to be critical of it as English was not his native language, and he didn't style himself a "writer" per se; he is a philatelist who happened to organize may HK areas of collecting. But it is difficult to get through some of these publications sometimes.
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Thank you for that information Peter. Perhaps I have been somewhat over critical. I suppose I should take into account the technology that was available at the time some of these books were assembled and the budget available.
I would imagine that Mr, Tsang relied on black and white photocopying, whereas we now benefit from the convenience and high quality of scanners and PC processing. What many don't seem to have these days though, is more time.
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I am in the process of producing an article to illustrate examples of Japanese Occupation post office circular date stamps.
This though has been a bigger task than I had first imagined. The main problem has been finding postmarks that are legible. I have sourced reference material from own collection, online and printed auction catalogues and eBay listings.
So far, I have successfully 'lifted' fifteen postmarks, including those from all twelve Hong Kong branches. Each postmark has been cleaned and manipulated where inking has been poor. Some of the postmark images I have produced are composites, where no single strike was suitable. In the worst case, elements of three postmark strikes were combined to give the finished image.
In doing so, I have found that more than one hand stamp was used in some (perhaps all) post offices. I have also discovered an example of a postmark error, a curious 3 postmark combination postal stationery card and other snippets of information.
The sample shown below is from a Da Luz cover postmarked in Sham Shui Po. I thought this would be appropriate given Peter's (cocollectibles) connection with this part of Hong Kong.
If you have any comments or ideas/advice about the next stage of my venture, I'll be pleased to hear. I would particularly appreciated any information about the existence of a contemporary map of Hong Kong, ideally showing the post office locations during the occupation. I have had no success in finding one.
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You might try contacting Dr. Tony Banham at his Hong Kong War Diary website. There is an extensive history of Hong Kong during the occupation years, and he might be able to direct you to appropriate sources of information or even contacts who might know. Tony wrote the foreword to my book about my great-uncle's sketches at the POW camp.
Peter
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I have already bookmarked that website.
I'm experimenting with the use of text within each postmark image:
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The site has little about philately; I'd email him directly if I were you. He's very knowledgeable and helpful.
I like where you're going with the postmarks; I'd love to see the end product.
Cheers,
Peter
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I'll contact Dr Banham about the the map but I don't propose to research the subject too deeply.
Initially, I just want to produce a rather simple online reference, to aid identification. If I go deeper, I know I'll only get bogged down in detail, on a subject that has been researched in numerous publications that I do not own.
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I am also very interested in the Jap Occ of HK, I have the complete 12 branch post office covers out of the Da Luz "Correspondence" .
The cover above was cancelled at the "Kowloon City" post office, the branch was only open for 9 months and replaced by the "Kowloontong" branch; KCity is thus the key item of Japanese Occupation postal history, and almost impossible to find commercially used and only but a few recorded from the Da Luz correspondence as Henry made only one visit to the branch during the 9 month period and even then only under the protection of an official permit to travel into that conflict zone....
I have only just last month finished reading the very interesting memoirs in Tsangs book, after reading the short section covering the war time memoirs, I set about trying to contact Mr Tsang only to find out he passed away 2 years ago..... Sad..
What I really can not get over is how Mr. Da Luz believed so much in what he was doing going about risking life and limb to have these covers cancelled, that he went as far as to sell a complete "pane" of the 1891 2c Jubilee that he had in his HK collection, to fund the covers we now have in our hands ...... incredible .... just crazy.... or is it?
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its worth looking at this
http://www.hongkongstudycircle.com/Exhibits/HKJapOcc/Contents.html
It is an amazing exhibit and might have some of the information you need etc
Also why not join the Hong Kong Study Circle at the same time......!!!
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I know Philippe , it was he that additionally authenticated my Kowloon City covers...
To be honest the circle is not what it used to be, most of the people with the knowledge are very distant and imagine this; Philippe Orsetti won the wild cup this year 2016, his discovery of the earliest recorded PO label on cover was voted as the best new discovery of the year, it is now the 10th of December and the circle have not bothered to upload the cover or honour him how they should....
To be honest the circles numbers are but a fraction of what they used to be, and with Mick Goldsmith having sold up and practically retired.... it is all just falling apart, they treat it much like the HKPSOC, old boys club, and that my friend is not for me, i love my hobby and I learn more from dealers and fellow collectors I know than from circles or societies....
Sad but very true in my opinion....
I look at what so many other societies do to promote philately as a whole and specifically the country or subject they represent, and when you compare it to the dinosaurs and forgotten realms that is the circle, the hkpsoc the china philatelic society etc etc.... it is just pointless, pretty much like the so called expert committee at the RPSOL , they will only certify the VERY bog standard and EASY to identify items listed by gibbons and not bother to reach out into the unknown for the sake of the hobby or the collector, whats the point in that ?!?!? if its too much work they simply won't bother to certify it... where is the duty where is the commitment .... Dead !
I can find more help and knowledge on my own with the help of auction catalogues, prices realised, books , the internet and with a few key email addresses and whatsapp numbers....
Who needs the circle.... I don't.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
03 Dec 2015
04:03:17pm
January 22, 1942.
For this period, (on a Japanese language cancel only) add 1925 to the first number.
Roy
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
03 Dec 2015
04:58:27pm
re: Japanese cancel date please
For a full treatment of Japanese cancels (re: date structure), see my post in this thread:
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5668#79948
Roy
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this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
Peter --
I was just checking on those stamps in the Japan Specialized catalog, because it prices FDCs as well as Japanese Occupation cancels. (Your cancel is from Hong Kong, but I'm sure you knew that already.)
It is interesting that the first days of issues for the stamps themselves, in Japan, is earlier, but I suspect that this is a first day of issue in Hong Kong, after Japan occupied it.
A specialist far beyond my scope could hopefully confirm this for you.
However, I am the admin for a small specialized Japanese philately group on Facebook, and I _think_ this is an area of interest for one of the participants in Japan. May I post your images there and see what kind of discussion it brings up?
And if you're on FB, I can make you a member of the group. Just PM me your FB info.
-- Dave
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re: Japanese cancel date please
Thanks, Peter. I'll do that and let you know what I learn, if anything.
Thanks also for knowing those dates. I figured it would be something like that, but was a little short on time to research it myself at the moment.
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this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
Here's another first day of re-opening but unusually on a Japanese PSC:
Mr Manton sure was a busy chap. (Another one identical to yours Peter, sold a couple of days ago).
Login to Like
this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
As stated above, the Kong Kong GPO opened 22nd January 1942, as did Kowloon Central Post Office. Look out for all other similar covers from these other post offices (assuming that you can find a translation for the Japanese CDS's but on different dates:
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re: Japanese cancel date please
Peter, I forgot to say what an attractive Japanese Occupation cover that is. It's actually the first I have seen (even in a catalogue). Just as a side note; the 1 sen orange (the right-most stamp) is curiously from the 1914 issue. Perhaps the arrival in Hong Kong of the 1 sen orange brown, which shows rice-harvesting) was delayed.
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06:19:55am
re: Japanese cancel date please
Thanks for the detailed PO openings!
As to the stamps on the "FDC" I also note that these were early in the war so they don't have the HK overprint characteristic of later official occupation stamps, and not all of these were so overprinted.
Cheers,
Peter
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this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
Ningpo, that's a very helpful chart!!
Did you assemble it yourself, or is it from a reference source?
Thanks!
-- Dave
Login to Like
this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
I reformatted some details from F W Webb's, The philatelic & Postal History of Hong Kong. As it's not possible to tabulate here, I put them into a Word document and took a screen shot.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Japanese cancel date please
One of the things on my endless list of To Do's, is to create a 'starting' reference for Hong Kong post offices under Japanese rule. This will just show examples of each Japanese CDS with the corresponding Hong Kong post office and any other snippets.
A frustration of mine, is that information is all over the place; most of which is not in a convenient or user friendly format. Although one or two authors have produced readable reference books, others should have employed someone else who knew how to write and present.
All too often, a lot of information is provided in narrative form, where a good quality image would be sufficient.
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04:23:00pm
re: Japanese cancel date please
Such a list would be very helpful; I, for one, would love to see the final product. If I can help compile it, let me know. I know you probably have this, but I found the publication by Ming Tsang helpful: Hong Kong Japanese Occupation and Mr. H. da Luz.
((Edited to add reference))
Peter
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re: Japanese cancel date please
Ningpo: Thanks very much for that reply! Very helpful!
I, too, would be interested in seeing something like an organized reference with that info.
If I can find this information from Japanese sources, I will let you know.
-- Dave
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this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
"...but I found the publication by Ming Tsang helpful: Hong Kong Japanese Occupation and ⇒ Mr. H. da Luz. â‡"
Most of my Japanese occupation covers, seem to be from the H. da Luz stable. I am assuming that he and Mr Manton (see your first day of opening cover) were very much on the ball and produced these in numbers. In other words these were all philatelic in nature. Examples of other (unrelated to Japanese occupation) covers were produced too.
Am I right in this assumption?
Edit:
Peter is that a different book to Tsang's one on forgeries? Either way, I still don't have any of Tsang's publications. I have been dithering over his book on forgeries, as the examples you kindly sent me seem to illustrate my point about 'others should have employed someone else who knew how to write and present.'
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06:37:35am
re: Japanese cancel date please
Ming Tsang notes in the Japanese Occupation booklet that this is the fourth monograph of the series published by the HK Stamp Society. Here are the four:
HK Registration Labels
HK Security Markings
HK Forgeries
and this one, Japanese Occupation. I have only the last two.
This book is divided into three parts:
1. HK Japanese Occupation Postal History
2. H. da Luz Wartime Memoirs
3. da Luz covers
Part 2 is a very illuminating personal recollection of the attack, invasion, and occupation by the Japanese.
As an aside, my parents had moved to Macau by the time of the Japanese attack but several of their relatives continued to live in HK (excluding those imprisoned as Allied forces, of course). These got to know Mr. da Luz and my mother noted stories of how he would rush to the post office at any new stamp issue (including during the occupation) and get a cancel on the first day. I'm not sure if his covers could be characterized as philatelic cancels in the sense that they were the "regular" postal cancels; but they can in the sense of "canceled but not used for postage."
As to his style of Ming Tsang's writing, I would hesitate to be critical of it as English was not his native language, and he didn't style himself a "writer" per se; he is a philatelist who happened to organize may HK areas of collecting. But it is difficult to get through some of these publications sometimes.
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re: Japanese cancel date please
Thank you for that information Peter. Perhaps I have been somewhat over critical. I suppose I should take into account the technology that was available at the time some of these books were assembled and the budget available.
I would imagine that Mr, Tsang relied on black and white photocopying, whereas we now benefit from the convenience and high quality of scanners and PC processing. What many don't seem to have these days though, is more time.
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Login to Like.
re: Japanese cancel date please
I am in the process of producing an article to illustrate examples of Japanese Occupation post office circular date stamps.
This though has been a bigger task than I had first imagined. The main problem has been finding postmarks that are legible. I have sourced reference material from own collection, online and printed auction catalogues and eBay listings.
So far, I have successfully 'lifted' fifteen postmarks, including those from all twelve Hong Kong branches. Each postmark has been cleaned and manipulated where inking has been poor. Some of the postmark images I have produced are composites, where no single strike was suitable. In the worst case, elements of three postmark strikes were combined to give the finished image.
In doing so, I have found that more than one hand stamp was used in some (perhaps all) post offices. I have also discovered an example of a postmark error, a curious 3 postmark combination postal stationery card and other snippets of information.
The sample shown below is from a Da Luz cover postmarked in Sham Shui Po. I thought this would be appropriate given Peter's (cocollectibles) connection with this part of Hong Kong.
If you have any comments or ideas/advice about the next stage of my venture, I'll be pleased to hear. I would particularly appreciated any information about the existence of a contemporary map of Hong Kong, ideally showing the post office locations during the occupation. I have had no success in finding one.
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01:23:36pm
re: Japanese cancel date please
You might try contacting Dr. Tony Banham at his Hong Kong War Diary website. There is an extensive history of Hong Kong during the occupation years, and he might be able to direct you to appropriate sources of information or even contacts who might know. Tony wrote the foreword to my book about my great-uncle's sketches at the POW camp.
Peter
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re: Japanese cancel date please
I have already bookmarked that website.
I'm experimenting with the use of text within each postmark image:
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05:17:32pm
re: Japanese cancel date please
The site has little about philately; I'd email him directly if I were you. He's very knowledgeable and helpful.
I like where you're going with the postmarks; I'd love to see the end product.
Cheers,
Peter
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this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
I'll contact Dr Banham about the the map but I don't propose to research the subject too deeply.
Initially, I just want to produce a rather simple online reference, to aid identification. If I go deeper, I know I'll only get bogged down in detail, on a subject that has been researched in numerous publications that I do not own.
Login to Like
this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
I am also very interested in the Jap Occ of HK, I have the complete 12 branch post office covers out of the Da Luz "Correspondence" .
The cover above was cancelled at the "Kowloon City" post office, the branch was only open for 9 months and replaced by the "Kowloontong" branch; KCity is thus the key item of Japanese Occupation postal history, and almost impossible to find commercially used and only but a few recorded from the Da Luz correspondence as Henry made only one visit to the branch during the 9 month period and even then only under the protection of an official permit to travel into that conflict zone....
I have only just last month finished reading the very interesting memoirs in Tsangs book, after reading the short section covering the war time memoirs, I set about trying to contact Mr Tsang only to find out he passed away 2 years ago..... Sad..
What I really can not get over is how Mr. Da Luz believed so much in what he was doing going about risking life and limb to have these covers cancelled, that he went as far as to sell a complete "pane" of the 1891 2c Jubilee that he had in his HK collection, to fund the covers we now have in our hands ...... incredible .... just crazy.... or is it?
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re: Japanese cancel date please
its worth looking at this
http://www.hongkongstudycircle.com/Exhibits/HKJapOcc/Contents.html
It is an amazing exhibit and might have some of the information you need etc
Also why not join the Hong Kong Study Circle at the same time......!!!
Login to Like
this post
re: Japanese cancel date please
I know Philippe , it was he that additionally authenticated my Kowloon City covers...
To be honest the circle is not what it used to be, most of the people with the knowledge are very distant and imagine this; Philippe Orsetti won the wild cup this year 2016, his discovery of the earliest recorded PO label on cover was voted as the best new discovery of the year, it is now the 10th of December and the circle have not bothered to upload the cover or honour him how they should....
To be honest the circles numbers are but a fraction of what they used to be, and with Mick Goldsmith having sold up and practically retired.... it is all just falling apart, they treat it much like the HKPSOC, old boys club, and that my friend is not for me, i love my hobby and I learn more from dealers and fellow collectors I know than from circles or societies....
Sad but very true in my opinion....
I look at what so many other societies do to promote philately as a whole and specifically the country or subject they represent, and when you compare it to the dinosaurs and forgotten realms that is the circle, the hkpsoc the china philatelic society etc etc.... it is just pointless, pretty much like the so called expert committee at the RPSOL , they will only certify the VERY bog standard and EASY to identify items listed by gibbons and not bother to reach out into the unknown for the sake of the hobby or the collector, whats the point in that ?!?!? if its too much work they simply won't bother to certify it... where is the duty where is the commitment .... Dead !
I can find more help and knowledge on my own with the help of auction catalogues, prices realised, books , the internet and with a few key email addresses and whatsapp numbers....
Who needs the circle.... I don't.
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