Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I was wondering if "Specimen" overprints added any value, beyond the CV, to stamps of this era?
Thanks.
Peter
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I don't think there is a broad brush answer to this. It varies from issue to issue and country to country.
Using an example from a country which is familiar to you; Hong Kong. Very early pre-UPU definitives, which are unlisted in the catalogues, can command very high prices as there were so few produced.
Another example: only two specimens (out of seven values) are listed for the 1882-96 issue: the 10 cent purple/red (see my avatar) and the 30 cent yellowish green. These are listed mint at £40 and £130 (2013 catalogue), whereas the specimens are listed at £400 for the pair (they were issued on the same day).
The 1898 $1 on 96c black, on the other hand is £3,250 mint yet only £600 for the specimen. So it varies wildly.
Of course condition of the later issues is important. The very early issues which I mentioned above are given much more leeway, as they probably were obtained from printer's archives and usually had the gum removed.
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Thanks for the information; I have yet to own a HK Specimen overprint (and given what you said about values, it is unlikely I will anytime soon!). This is one of those "ad-hoc" collecting areas of mine; that is, as I discover them in inherited lots or large box purchases, I add them to my collection. I don't go out of my way to purchase them. I also have a slew of Charles & Diana wedding Commonwealth wide Specimen stamps, which to my understanding are pretty much the same as CV.
Peter
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I have a very small number, some of which have issues with their condition. These however are my gems; the 1874-1902 fiscal issues.
Once again the catalogue values vary considerably. These are listed at £450 for the pair, whereas mint normals are £600 and £425.
Of course we also have to be on our guard against forged specimen overprints and more worryingly, perforated specimens.
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Yummy!
But why are Specimen overprints valued less than the mint stamp? I always thought they commanded a premium or at least were valued at the original stamp's CV.
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A complicating factor for pricing is that the Gibbons Commonwealth catalogue only prices them in sets, generally speaking. (The stated policy of SG is that specimens of stamps over a one-pound face value are priced individually.)
I've seen a few attempts at trying to explain a system for pricing an individual stamp based on the set price, but I have yet to be convinced.
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"But why are Specimen overprints valued less than the mint stamp? I always thought they commanded a premium or at least were valued at the original stamp's CV."
This has always baffled me too. Even allowing for the number of specimens submitted to UPU countries (when it was in put place) and any other body that needed them, one would think that these exist in far fewer numbers than those released to the public.
Years ago, I bought from a dealer in the Strand, London. His attitude to pricing individual specimens that were part of a set, was to take the catalogued set value and divide by the number in the set. He would then set his price based on that average.
His view was that it shouldn't matter that a specimen was a $10 or a 10 cent; they were issued in equal numbers. I thought this was a very sensible attitude. But try convincing collectors of that.
For the issues that I am interested in, invariably the top value of the specimen set always sells for a proportion of the top value normal set. Likewise the bottom value.
It's a category of stamp collecting that seems to be subject to different rules, or attitudes.
Or is it that specimens are just considered more a curiosity by most collectors?
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01:33:27am
" ... But why are Specimen overprints valued less than the mint stamp? I always thought they commanded a premium or at least were valued at the original stamp's CV. ..."
There is a balancing act between supply and demand
If there are three examples in existence and only two collectors who think that a certain stamp belongs in their collection, demand quickly drops into the negative column.
If there are ten million available examples of a certain stamp and twenty million collectors the stamp will be in demand and the price may well be out of proportion for something so common..
People forget that the supply is really a dual factor, the supply of an item and the number ( supply) of collectors. Demand on the other hand is, or can be, more subjective. The absolute number of collectors is not as critical, as the interest of those collectors, and the interest may depend more on subject matter or attractiveness than on numbers.
For example, while I enjoy my world wide collection and seek examples of any stamp I can afford, a specimen overprint simply fails to ring my chimes regardless of how few were produced and distributed. If a set of stamps otherwise priced beyond my means fell into my lap, I probably would keep them, but otherwise I doubt I'd cross the street seeking them.
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From your original thread post "do these have more value", the answer is no(Australia anyway). Specimen stamps of high values were produced for collectors to acquire them for less than face valve to add to their collecting interests, hence "Specimen" meant just that. Put it in your collection, here is a SPECIMEN of the real thing, overprinted so all know it did not come from stock available for postal usage.
BUT it did come from postage stock, BUT it sold for considerably less, because the collector was buying a SPECIMEN, for completeness of a collection. The real deal costing too much for the average collector.
Any stamp in Australia overprinted as Specimen is NOT valid for postage use.
Fred
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I am under the impression that "specimen" stamps were provided by various postal authorities to the UPU, et al to inform them of the legitimacy of their various stamp issues.
Whether that goes back as far as the QV era or not, I am not sure.
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01:11:24am
" ... I am under the impression that "specimen" stamps were provided by various postal authorities to the UPU ..."
That is true also, but I gather from Fred's note, that Australia has figured out how to milk the Goose that lays the Golden Eggs as well.
They must feel that there are quite a few less than well heeled collectors who are willing to pay a fraction of the face value for a contrived souvenir just to assuage the God of Completeness. So hey sell some paper stickers that will never be used to pay for delivery at a fraction of what actual delivery should cost.
"Oy vey, such a deal, they have for you."
For those who aren't from Brooklyn, or nearby, that is a common semi-Yiddish expression sales men use.
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Fred, thank you for that very interesting update! I didn't know that Australia (and other countries perhaps?) put Specimen on stamps for that reason. I too thought it was only for the UPU files.
So it seems "Specimen" can mean at least two things:
1. As davidpovost pointed out, it was used to "register" stamps with the UPU.
2. As Fred pointed out, so collectors could collect higher valued stamps that were out of reach, but overprinted so as to invalidate postage for their collecting purposes.
I also have a collection of all Charles/Diana wedding stamp sheets with Specimen overprinted on each; these don't seem to fit either criteria. I highly doubt these are the copies that went to the UPU and they are hardly high value stamps. So that leads me to conclude a third, perhaps cynical, reason in line with Charlie's post:
3. They were produced purely as a marketing gimmick for collectors, even on lower valued stamps and souvenir sheets.
Peter
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Most interesting stuff. For the U.S., a specimen item was used in the printing process before the final copy was agreed upon and issued. They do have a place monetarily on their own, and are collected rather frequently by U.S. collectors.
Dan C.
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As much as it pains me to disagree with you Daniel. I believe you are referring to Proofs.
My understanding is that specimen stamps were just that. Specimens sent to foreign postal services so that they would know what our country's stamps look like (to know whether they should charge postage due or not).
In some countries either the post office or, more nefariously, the local post master would sell their older specimen stamps and that is how they get on the market for stamp collectors.
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cocollectibles wrote:
"3. They were produced purely as a marketing gimmick for collectors, even on lower valued stamps and souvenir sheets. "
Very true. There are a few eBay sellers who sell specimen sets of new Hong Kong issues, including souvenir sheets. No doubt these are produced in huge numbers, so I don't see the point of these at all.
PS
Peter, for your information, a new Yang catalogue has been released; the first since 2009.
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Thanks Ningpo!
Here is an example of one of those souvenir sheets overprinted "Specimen"; I'm glad I inherited these, and didn't buy them.
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The following is taken from "The Language of Stamp Collecting" by David Rennie.
1) Under the rules of the UPU all issues of stamps produced by its members must be circulated via its offices to all other members. Such stamps are normally overprinted or perfined "Specimen" (or the local equivalent) and used by the recipient country for reference purposes.
2) Sample stamps usually overprinted "Specimen" distributed gratis via the philatelic press or to influential people or organisations in the trade.
I would add that the book was written in 1981 so could well be lagging in what would be accepted meaning today.
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It really does not matter a great deal with VALUE.
Let's get that out of the equation right now.
Does one want to collect, Yes that is what we do
Does one want too profit , relatives selling after Death.
FXXK that
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In the 1970s and 1980s, many British commonwealth nations started issuing Specimen stamps for collectors. It was a collecting fad during that time, and of course some postal agencies were more than happy to overprint and sell to collectors. Some continued to make Specimen stamps available to collectors after collectors moved away from that and onto something else. Remember when gutter pairs were the rage?
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08:14:07am
I've always been intrigued by "Specimen" overprints on stamps, particularly from the QV era. I don't have many but here are most of what I do have.
I was wondering if "Specimen" overprints added any value, beyond the CV, to stamps of this era?
Thanks.
Peter
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re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
I don't think there is a broad brush answer to this. It varies from issue to issue and country to country.
Using an example from a country which is familiar to you; Hong Kong. Very early pre-UPU definitives, which are unlisted in the catalogues, can command very high prices as there were so few produced.
Another example: only two specimens (out of seven values) are listed for the 1882-96 issue: the 10 cent purple/red (see my avatar) and the 30 cent yellowish green. These are listed mint at £40 and £130 (2013 catalogue), whereas the specimens are listed at £400 for the pair (they were issued on the same day).
The 1898 $1 on 96c black, on the other hand is £3,250 mint yet only £600 for the specimen. So it varies wildly.
Of course condition of the later issues is important. The very early issues which I mentioned above are given much more leeway, as they probably were obtained from printer's archives and usually had the gum removed.
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08:56:58am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
Thanks for the information; I have yet to own a HK Specimen overprint (and given what you said about values, it is unlikely I will anytime soon!). This is one of those "ad-hoc" collecting areas of mine; that is, as I discover them in inherited lots or large box purchases, I add them to my collection. I don't go out of my way to purchase them. I also have a slew of Charles & Diana wedding Commonwealth wide Specimen stamps, which to my understanding are pretty much the same as CV.
Peter
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this post
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
I have a very small number, some of which have issues with their condition. These however are my gems; the 1874-1902 fiscal issues.
Once again the catalogue values vary considerably. These are listed at £450 for the pair, whereas mint normals are £600 and £425.
Of course we also have to be on our guard against forged specimen overprints and more worryingly, perforated specimens.
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09:33:02am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
Yummy!
But why are Specimen overprints valued less than the mint stamp? I always thought they commanded a premium or at least were valued at the original stamp's CV.
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re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
A complicating factor for pricing is that the Gibbons Commonwealth catalogue only prices them in sets, generally speaking. (The stated policy of SG is that specimens of stamps over a one-pound face value are priced individually.)
I've seen a few attempts at trying to explain a system for pricing an individual stamp based on the set price, but I have yet to be convinced.
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this post
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
"But why are Specimen overprints valued less than the mint stamp? I always thought they commanded a premium or at least were valued at the original stamp's CV."
This has always baffled me too. Even allowing for the number of specimens submitted to UPU countries (when it was in put place) and any other body that needed them, one would think that these exist in far fewer numbers than those released to the public.
Years ago, I bought from a dealer in the Strand, London. His attitude to pricing individual specimens that were part of a set, was to take the catalogued set value and divide by the number in the set. He would then set his price based on that average.
His view was that it shouldn't matter that a specimen was a $10 or a 10 cent; they were issued in equal numbers. I thought this was a very sensible attitude. But try convincing collectors of that.
For the issues that I am interested in, invariably the top value of the specimen set always sells for a proportion of the top value normal set. Likewise the bottom value.
It's a category of stamp collecting that seems to be subject to different rules, or attitudes.
Or is it that specimens are just considered more a curiosity by most collectors?
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
29 Oct 2015
01:33:27am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
" ... But why are Specimen overprints valued less than the mint stamp? I always thought they commanded a premium or at least were valued at the original stamp's CV. ..."
There is a balancing act between supply and demand
If there are three examples in existence and only two collectors who think that a certain stamp belongs in their collection, demand quickly drops into the negative column.
If there are ten million available examples of a certain stamp and twenty million collectors the stamp will be in demand and the price may well be out of proportion for something so common..
People forget that the supply is really a dual factor, the supply of an item and the number ( supply) of collectors. Demand on the other hand is, or can be, more subjective. The absolute number of collectors is not as critical, as the interest of those collectors, and the interest may depend more on subject matter or attractiveness than on numbers.
For example, while I enjoy my world wide collection and seek examples of any stamp I can afford, a specimen overprint simply fails to ring my chimes regardless of how few were produced and distributed. If a set of stamps otherwise priced beyond my means fell into my lap, I probably would keep them, but otherwise I doubt I'd cross the street seeking them.
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09:36:39pm
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
From your original thread post "do these have more value", the answer is no(Australia anyway). Specimen stamps of high values were produced for collectors to acquire them for less than face valve to add to their collecting interests, hence "Specimen" meant just that. Put it in your collection, here is a SPECIMEN of the real thing, overprinted so all know it did not come from stock available for postal usage.
BUT it did come from postage stock, BUT it sold for considerably less, because the collector was buying a SPECIMEN, for completeness of a collection. The real deal costing too much for the average collector.
Any stamp in Australia overprinted as Specimen is NOT valid for postage use.
Fred
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re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
I am under the impression that "specimen" stamps were provided by various postal authorities to the UPU, et al to inform them of the legitimacy of their various stamp issues.
Whether that goes back as far as the QV era or not, I am not sure.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Nov 2015
01:11:24am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
" ... I am under the impression that "specimen" stamps were provided by various postal authorities to the UPU ..."
That is true also, but I gather from Fred's note, that Australia has figured out how to milk the Goose that lays the Golden Eggs as well.
They must feel that there are quite a few less than well heeled collectors who are willing to pay a fraction of the face value for a contrived souvenir just to assuage the God of Completeness. So hey sell some paper stickers that will never be used to pay for delivery at a fraction of what actual delivery should cost.
"Oy vey, such a deal, they have for you."
For those who aren't from Brooklyn, or nearby, that is a common semi-Yiddish expression sales men use.
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06:33:54am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
Fred, thank you for that very interesting update! I didn't know that Australia (and other countries perhaps?) put Specimen on stamps for that reason. I too thought it was only for the UPU files.
So it seems "Specimen" can mean at least two things:
1. As davidpovost pointed out, it was used to "register" stamps with the UPU.
2. As Fred pointed out, so collectors could collect higher valued stamps that were out of reach, but overprinted so as to invalidate postage for their collecting purposes.
I also have a collection of all Charles/Diana wedding stamp sheets with Specimen overprinted on each; these don't seem to fit either criteria. I highly doubt these are the copies that went to the UPU and they are hardly high value stamps. So that leads me to conclude a third, perhaps cynical, reason in line with Charlie's post:
3. They were produced purely as a marketing gimmick for collectors, even on lower valued stamps and souvenir sheets.
Peter
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re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
Most interesting stuff. For the U.S., a specimen item was used in the printing process before the final copy was agreed upon and issued. They do have a place monetarily on their own, and are collected rather frequently by U.S. collectors.
Dan C.
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this post
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
As much as it pains me to disagree with you Daniel. I believe you are referring to Proofs.
My understanding is that specimen stamps were just that. Specimens sent to foreign postal services so that they would know what our country's stamps look like (to know whether they should charge postage due or not).
In some countries either the post office or, more nefariously, the local post master would sell their older specimen stamps and that is how they get on the market for stamp collectors.
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re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
cocollectibles wrote:
"3. They were produced purely as a marketing gimmick for collectors, even on lower valued stamps and souvenir sheets. "
Very true. There are a few eBay sellers who sell specimen sets of new Hong Kong issues, including souvenir sheets. No doubt these are produced in huge numbers, so I don't see the point of these at all.
PS
Peter, for your information, a new Yang catalogue has been released; the first since 2009.
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10:32:55am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
Thanks Ningpo!
Here is an example of one of those souvenir sheets overprinted "Specimen"; I'm glad I inherited these, and didn't buy them.
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re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
The following is taken from "The Language of Stamp Collecting" by David Rennie.
1) Under the rules of the UPU all issues of stamps produced by its members must be circulated via its offices to all other members. Such stamps are normally overprinted or perfined "Specimen" (or the local equivalent) and used by the recipient country for reference purposes.
2) Sample stamps usually overprinted "Specimen" distributed gratis via the philatelic press or to influential people or organisations in the trade.
I would add that the book was written in 1981 so could well be lagging in what would be accepted meaning today.
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12:49:43am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
It really does not matter a great deal with VALUE.
Let's get that out of the equation right now.
Does one want to collect, Yes that is what we do
Does one want too profit , relatives selling after Death.
FXXK that
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this post
01:55:53am
re: "Specimen" overprinted QV stamps
In the 1970s and 1980s, many British commonwealth nations started issuing Specimen stamps for collectors. It was a collecting fad during that time, and of course some postal agencies were more than happy to overprint and sell to collectors. Some continued to make Specimen stamps available to collectors after collectors moved away from that and onto something else. Remember when gutter pairs were the rage?
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