Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
The reason I ask is because I have at least two Mozambique Co. stamps with decorative style markings I don't recognize and can't quite read. In the past, the easiest way for me to identify such markings was via the older page I referenced above.
I did a quick Google search, but found nothing other than the Filatelia site displaying such markings. Does anyone know of another online resource? Am I mistaken in thinking that Filatelia or some other site once had a display that included far more decorative markings than they currently display?
Thanks!
Tom
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Tom, why not post an image of those two stamps. Kim is pretty good on expertiser markings.
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Is this the site you are looking for?
http://www.filatelia.fi/experts/index.html
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-09-03 17:32:29)
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Cool site! Thanks.
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Anticipating your suggestion, Michael, I scanned the backsides of the (now 3) stamps with marks. I used Photoshop to create enlargements and improve clarity and then overlay the enlargements on the scan of the stamp's back. There may be a better way to do this, but this will do for now.
This first one is Mozambique Co. 55 perf 12½ 
The second is Mozambique Co. 56 perf 12½ 
The third is Mozambique Co. 56 perf 13½ 
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Vinman, that is the only site I know of that displays any of the expert/dealer's marks currently and it may be the site I was visiting in the past, but I just seem to recall there being a wider variety of examples, especially of the decorative types of marks.
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I seem to remember another site also. I checked through my favorites and couldn't find it. Those marks on your stamps may also be owner's marks from a previous owner.
Vince
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These all came from one of two 1950s Portuguese colonies collections I purchased in the '80s. Some stamps have multiple hinge remnants indicating multiple owners.
I don't know how complete the "decorative" markings list is at the Filatelia site. If it's fairly complete, then these would probably be owners' markings. If it's a small sampling, then these could be experts' or dealers' markings. We may never know.
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02:23:54pm
Which makes them moot, neither indicating validity nor possession, or by position, validity. Unless, of course, some reliable source and explanation is found.
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Question - are the origins of the markings for authenticity of the stamps which I gather are the 1898 surcharges?
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For those who don't know me, I should explain further.
I'm no longer collecting. I've been slowly (and reluctantly) selling my collection/accumulation for nearly a decade. I haven't lost interest in philately. I just have too many other higher priorities.
In the process of listing my stamps for sale, I'm trying to be thorough in describing them. I still enjoy learning about my stamps even when I'm selling them. That is what I'm doing with these stamps. I wanted to make sure I could include as much info as possible regarding the marks on the back.
It's my understanding that some collectors don't like having stamps with the marks. I happen to think they're interesting. I just want to make sure a prospective buyer knows what he/she is getting. If I can include the name of the mark's owner, I will. If it's not available, it'll remain a mystery for now.
And, in response to the question....these are the Centenario da India overprints and the marks could be related to stamp authenticity. Scott also notes forged overprints on 11½ perf stamps and I don't know if an expert would bother putting his mark on 12½ and 13½ perf stamps—unless there are forged overprints on those as well that Scott doesn't mention.
My understanding of the positioning system for the marks on stamps is that the system was never universally adopted. So, I am assuming that circular marks such as these were either not used by an expert or were used by an expert, dealer or collector who had no interest in following the positioning system.
By the way, does anyone know how many collectors marked their stamps back in the old days? Has anyone ever tried to come up with a number of how many different collector markings there might be?
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As with so many others, there are forgeries of the 1898's
The 11.5 perf is a good indicator for some.
There are others called the Seligmann Forgeries
As well I have notes that a stamp dealer in Poland may have forged overprints of the less expensive 1895's.
Even the cheap 1895s have been extensively forged but the few types are easily distinguished
Personally I don't put much store in markings, there are as many fakes of those as the front side.
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nl1947, your comments prompted me to search online for info regarding the Mozambique Company forgeries. It had been a few years since I looked at them. I had belonged to ISPP briefly several years ago and purchased some back issues of Portu-Info, but not enough to really cover the various forgeries very thoroughly. Plus, the quality of the images in those older issues wasn't very good.
There is some surprisingly good info online now. I need to go back and re-educate myself, but one thing I haven't found yet is info regarding any Centenario da India overprint forgeries other than the 11½ perf stamps.
Also, Scott mentions the #45 and #49 being issued with gum. My Scott #48 has gum, but this is the sort of thing that may be common—Scott not including as much information as other catalog publishers might.
Tom
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Interesting!
I had saved a THD file back in 2000. It was a discussion of Mozambique Company overprints from a 1998 discussion. I no longer have software that properly formats a THD file, and converting it to a TXT or DOCX file loses some formatting and makes it difficult to read some of the data presented in the discussion.
A few minutes ago, I selected a unique phrase from that discussion and did a Google search. Surprise! I quickly found that old discussion at rec.collecting.stamps.discuss in Google Groups. It's nice to know some of that online knowledge from a decade or more ago has been preserved!
Tom
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Yes the google group is still available
LINK
I sometimes use it for research - lots of info going back 15 years or more
Mozambique Co. is only of passing interest so I am not up to date on it.
I guess if you wanted more info the
D.J. Davies, Forged Postage Stamps of Portugal and Colonies
would be a good one (if available & you want to spend $100)
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Thanks but no thanks on the $100 book! Even if I were still actively collecting, it's doubtful I'd spend that kind of money on a specific resource. I was collecting Colonial Africa pre-1940 generally and preferred to spend my budgeted resources on stamps rather than a lot of research info. Owning the good research material for that broad of an area would have been expensive!
I've tried to share as much as I can online in recent years and many others who are much more knowledgeable than I are doing the same. That helps a lot when the physical research resources are becoming so expensive—and sometimes difficult to find.
I appreciate yours and others' comments and suggestions.
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Not too long ago (2-3 years?) I had a link to a page displaying images of expert's and dealer's markings on the backs of stamps. Today, I was trying to locate that page, but all I found was a group of three seemingly abbreviated pages at Filatelia. I think the page I had seen in the past was at Filatelia, but can't be certain. It's possible they've simply subdivided the page I had used in the past, but can't be certain. My recollection is that there were many more decorative markings displayed in the past than displayed in the decorative markings page at Filatelia today.
The reason I ask is because I have at least two Mozambique Co. stamps with decorative style markings I don't recognize and can't quite read. In the past, the easiest way for me to identify such markings was via the older page I referenced above.
I did a quick Google search, but found nothing other than the Filatelia site displaying such markings. Does anyone know of another online resource? Am I mistaken in thinking that Filatelia or some other site once had a display that included far more decorative markings than they currently display?
Thanks!
Tom
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01:57:18pm
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Tom, why not post an image of those two stamps. Kim is pretty good on expertiser markings.
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re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Is this the site you are looking for?
http://www.filatelia.fi/experts/index.html
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-09-03 17:32:29)
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05:32:43pm
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Cool site! Thanks.
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this post
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Anticipating your suggestion, Michael, I scanned the backsides of the (now 3) stamps with marks. I used Photoshop to create enlargements and improve clarity and then overlay the enlargements on the scan of the stamp's back. There may be a better way to do this, but this will do for now.
This first one is Mozambique Co. 55 perf 12½
The second is Mozambique Co. 56 perf 12½
The third is Mozambique Co. 56 perf 13½
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re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Vinman, that is the only site I know of that displays any of the expert/dealer's marks currently and it may be the site I was visiting in the past, but I just seem to recall there being a wider variety of examples, especially of the decorative types of marks.
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this post
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
I seem to remember another site also. I checked through my favorites and couldn't find it. Those marks on your stamps may also be owner's marks from a previous owner.
Vince
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this post
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
These all came from one of two 1950s Portuguese colonies collections I purchased in the '80s. Some stamps have multiple hinge remnants indicating multiple owners.
I don't know how complete the "decorative" markings list is at the Filatelia site. If it's fairly complete, then these would probably be owners' markings. If it's a small sampling, then these could be experts' or dealers' markings. We may never know.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
04 Sep 2015
02:23:54pm
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Which makes them moot, neither indicating validity nor possession, or by position, validity. Unless, of course, some reliable source and explanation is found.
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this post
02:56:38pm
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Question - are the origins of the markings for authenticity of the stamps which I gather are the 1898 surcharges?
Login to Like
this post
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
For those who don't know me, I should explain further.
I'm no longer collecting. I've been slowly (and reluctantly) selling my collection/accumulation for nearly a decade. I haven't lost interest in philately. I just have too many other higher priorities.
In the process of listing my stamps for sale, I'm trying to be thorough in describing them. I still enjoy learning about my stamps even when I'm selling them. That is what I'm doing with these stamps. I wanted to make sure I could include as much info as possible regarding the marks on the back.
It's my understanding that some collectors don't like having stamps with the marks. I happen to think they're interesting. I just want to make sure a prospective buyer knows what he/she is getting. If I can include the name of the mark's owner, I will. If it's not available, it'll remain a mystery for now.
And, in response to the question....these are the Centenario da India overprints and the marks could be related to stamp authenticity. Scott also notes forged overprints on 11½ perf stamps and I don't know if an expert would bother putting his mark on 12½ and 13½ perf stamps—unless there are forged overprints on those as well that Scott doesn't mention.
My understanding of the positioning system for the marks on stamps is that the system was never universally adopted. So, I am assuming that circular marks such as these were either not used by an expert or were used by an expert, dealer or collector who had no interest in following the positioning system.
By the way, does anyone know how many collectors marked their stamps back in the old days? Has anyone ever tried to come up with a number of how many different collector markings there might be?
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06:00:20pm
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
As with so many others, there are forgeries of the 1898's
The 11.5 perf is a good indicator for some.
There are others called the Seligmann Forgeries
As well I have notes that a stamp dealer in Poland may have forged overprints of the less expensive 1895's.
Even the cheap 1895s have been extensively forged but the few types are easily distinguished
Personally I don't put much store in markings, there are as many fakes of those as the front side.
Login to Like
this post
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
nl1947, your comments prompted me to search online for info regarding the Mozambique Company forgeries. It had been a few years since I looked at them. I had belonged to ISPP briefly several years ago and purchased some back issues of Portu-Info, but not enough to really cover the various forgeries very thoroughly. Plus, the quality of the images in those older issues wasn't very good.
There is some surprisingly good info online now. I need to go back and re-educate myself, but one thing I haven't found yet is info regarding any Centenario da India overprint forgeries other than the 11½ perf stamps.
Also, Scott mentions the #45 and #49 being issued with gum. My Scott #48 has gum, but this is the sort of thing that may be common—Scott not including as much information as other catalog publishers might.
Tom
Login to Like
this post
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Interesting!
I had saved a THD file back in 2000. It was a discussion of Mozambique Company overprints from a 1998 discussion. I no longer have software that properly formats a THD file, and converting it to a TXT or DOCX file loses some formatting and makes it difficult to read some of the data presented in the discussion.
A few minutes ago, I selected a unique phrase from that discussion and did a Google search. Surprise! I quickly found that old discussion at rec.collecting.stamps.discuss in Google Groups. It's nice to know some of that online knowledge from a decade or more ago has been preserved!
Tom
Login to Like
this post
10:29:24am
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Yes the google group is still available
LINK
I sometimes use it for research - lots of info going back 15 years or more
Mozambique Co. is only of passing interest so I am not up to date on it.
I guess if you wanted more info the
D.J. Davies, Forged Postage Stamps of Portugal and Colonies
would be a good one (if available & you want to spend $100)
Login to Like
this post
re: Expert's and dealer's markings
Thanks but no thanks on the $100 book! Even if I were still actively collecting, it's doubtful I'd spend that kind of money on a specific resource. I was collecting Colonial Africa pre-1940 generally and preferred to spend my budgeted resources on stamps rather than a lot of research info. Owning the good research material for that broad of an area would have been expensive!
I've tried to share as much as I can online in recent years and many others who are much more knowledgeable than I are doing the same. That helps a lot when the physical research resources are becoming so expensive—and sometimes difficult to find.
I appreciate yours and others' comments and suggestions.
Login to Like
this post