Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
A comment the author makes on a sideline of certification is when there is an advertisement or listing for a valuable stamp. Many times the seller will add in the item description that the stamp comes with a certificate. Now, how often do we as collectors presume that this means that the stamp is genuine? Sellers often never make any mention of the authenticity of the stamp or the certificate.
Before bidding or buying a stamp when the information merely states that the stamp comes with a certificate, it is best to ask the seller two things:
- which expertization organization issued the certificate
- what does the certificate state regarding the condition of the stamp
Also ask the seller to post a copy of the certificate with the listing, or send you a copy of it via email.
The American Philatelic Society is working to create an online database of the certificates that the APS Expertizing Committee has issued. Someone will be able to go to the APS web site, enter the certificate number and review it online to make sure that the stamp being offered along with the certificate is the correct stamp. This will be a great service once it is completed. Some certificates are available for viewing now.
The bottom line is do not purchase a valuable stamp without making sure that you will get what you are paying for.
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10:27:12am
Pay close attention to Michael's advice. Most Sellers offering items "with certificates" are above board and the certificates are from reputable expertising services. However, we have all seen, time and again that there are some sellers who prey upon the unsuspecting. Taking the extra time, and making the extra effort, can save you not only money, but the disappointment of receiving something you did not bargain for.
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Even more dangerous is the practice of advertising the stamp as signed!
That guarantees nothing unfortunately.
rrr...
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Okay, I've got a question!
I recently won a lot on eBay that intrigued me. As most here know, I specialize in the 1902 One Cent Ben Franklin stamp as shown in my avatar. Scott 314 is the imperf variety and there are a bunch of private perforations listed in Scott. One that's not listed is the Covel private perf. The manager of Covel was Ernie Filstrup, a known stamp collector of this era. Covel was located up the street from Shermack and Ernie knew them well enough that he commissioned his own private perforation.
These were used on Covel correspondence, both outgoing and what appears to be SASE incoming mail to Covel. I have examples on cover, as well as both mint and used examples. These often get confused with Scott 318, which is the USPO coil for the issue. I've bought several of the Covel coils sold as "Fake 318".
So I recently bought a pair of these stamps, with a Professional Stamp Experts certificate stating "It is a fake coil pair". Examining the stamps, they are dead on Covel coils. So.... what's the deal with PSE? If indeed they are selling expertizing services, shouldn't they be aware of what they were looking at? Do they stand behind their certificates, as in if I write them and provide proof of the existence of the Covel coils that they will make the certificate right?
AND, beyond that I believe that Scott Specialized needs to list the Covel coils in their Private Perforations section. They exist in large enough quantities that I manage to buy one every so often, and collectors deserve to know they have a legitimate private perf that was cut by Schermack. My latest Scott Specialized is a 2004 edition, so let me know if they've added these to the catalog.
Any ideas?
Here's a scan of one of my Covel imperf covers. I've owned this cover since mid 1970s and it's signed on the back by Pat Herst as genuine private perforation.
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Not meaning to add fuel to the fire here but not all certificates are correct. Many stamps that received bad certs in the past have gotten good certs when submitted to other organizations, or in some cases resubmitted to the same organization. Some is because of new information, some is because another expert has a different opinion.
There are dealers whose submissions are always suspect. On occasion those dealers have others submit stamps for them. No system is perfect. At the end of the day a certificate is just an opinion.
I don't know if PSE will "make the certificate right". Looking at their website it appears that they are much more into encapsulation and grading then what they refer to as "specialty" items in their chart. If a certificate is desired it might be easier to just submit it to a different service.
Just my two cents
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Contact PSE and tell them of your provenance. Can't hurt, and you may get a revised certificate.
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A sheet of 160 was discovered in 1996 by Brusden-White; and recorded as being the only known sheet to exist; the above stamp is from that sheet. It came from the right of the pane, 5th down and 9th across, it also comes with what is known as a Brusden White certificate and is considered rare.
Many valuable stamps are provided with a credible expertised certificate of being genuine. I know of collectors who prefer to have an expertised certificate accompany certain stamps they buy as many forgeries exist (expertising a stamp can be expensive and the wait could be many weeks before you get the item back and a certificate if it passes the test).
Another Australian stamp, the £1 1938 Coronation Specimen, can only be sold with a credible expertised certificate, the preferred certificate for this particular stamp is the Ceremuga certificate (though other certificates had been used to identify the genuineness of the stamp).
There is no iron clad guarantee that an expertised stamp is genuine, mistakes can occur; the dealer I purchase stamps from always cross checks the certified stamps for my peace of mind (guaranteeing that if any stamp sold to me turns out to be counterfeit I am given a choice, choose another stamp to the same value, wait until a genuine version is located or my money back in full).
As Michael (mdroth) pointed out:-
"Contact PSE and tell them of your provenance. Can't hurt, and you may get a revised certificate."
And with eBay I had seen a superb mint unhinged £1 Coronation Specimen selling for less than half the retail price, I noticed that the stamp was a counterfeit yet the certificate it came with was genuine; how could this be? The scammer removed the cancellation of a lightly used 1948 thin paper £1 Coronation commemorative (the colour is a deep bluish slate shading), stamped the overprint onto the stamp as shown on the certificate and actually sold it for $600. The certificate was most likely scanned from the internet.
All £1 1938 Coronation Specimens are printed on thick chalky paper, the colour is of a pale bluish slate shading.
Although there are honest eBay vendors; when it comes to purchasing certified stamps, get them from a reputable dealer.
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While looking at $2.60 Zeppelins on eBay, I noticed several had a "made in Germany" look to them. Excellent but off color & some minor details fuzzy. Normally I would not even bother as more than half those on eBay were questionable
The seller has been listed several times on StampSmarter so I thought I would question his listing..
Listing - GRAF ZEPPELIN MINT OG NH PSE CERT VF/XF
My question-What is the PSE cert number for this stamp
His answer-its a 2008 CLEAN PSE cert, no flaws of anykind on this item
Reply after I said CLEAN PSE means nothing - We will have to pull out the item from the vault to look it up, which takes time. Once you commit to buy we can send you the cert number.
We are not here on ebay to waste your time or play games
Sounds Fair....
...
adding a cert before shipping is easy - this one would have done fine in this case
Even changing the date is simple as the numbers to change 2014 to 2008 are there.
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"Reply after I said CLEAN PSE means nothing - We will have to pull out the item from the vault to look it up, which takes time. Once you commit to buy we can send you the cert number.
We are not here on ebay to waste your time or play games"
SCAMMER ALERT!!!! The certification number should have been readily available; the reason they are on eBay is to waste your time and steal your money in the process.
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Another issue with this seller that irks me is no back scan. Wouldn't buy without seeing the cert and the back scan for that price.
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The whole idea of a cert is to increase confidence. As a seller, I would never fail to list the complete cert with number. I wouldn't walk from this I'd run
-Ernie
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The reverse is very important.
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I have an interesting experience with certs:
It's definitely an inexact science in some cases, to be sure!
Lars
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Lars
Are you able to post a 300 dpi of that 351 without any size alteration?
On second thought - never mind
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I think I scanned it at 1200 dpi to blow it up to examine the left edge and add the parallel red lines with the scale. I doubt you can see anything useful at any resolution without blowing it up, because I can scan 300 dpi, but your monitor is limited to how many pixels per inch it can display.
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I think the word "opinion" says it all. No expert is flawless, some will err on the side of caution, and some may not know what they are looking at.
I bought on eBay recently what was described as FAKE Scott 318 pair with PSE FAKE certificate. Their opinion was "FAKE 318". Well, I did some research into my collection and I deem the stamps to be GENUINE COVEL PRIVATE PERFORATIONS on Scott 314. I have several copies of the Covel private perfs and a pair on cover from Covel Manufacturing that is signed as genuine on the back by Pat Hearst. I don't know why Scott doesn't list the Covel private perfs or at least acknowledge that they exist and are often confused with Scott 318.
I don't know what to do, I was thinking of sending the whole shebang off to PSE to see if they would alter their certification. I asked here on the board and didn't get any answers.
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You make a good point. Certs are a good thing generally, but it's important to learn from what the cert tells you and be willing to challenge the cert as you gain more knowledge. I would be surprised if more than 5% of certs are inaccurate regarding fake vs. genuine. The number may well be below 1%, but it certainly isn't zero.
Lars
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09:21:20am
Interesting read in the August 17, 2015 issue of Linns about when not to submit a stamp for expertization.
A comment the author makes on a sideline of certification is when there is an advertisement or listing for a valuable stamp. Many times the seller will add in the item description that the stamp comes with a certificate. Now, how often do we as collectors presume that this means that the stamp is genuine? Sellers often never make any mention of the authenticity of the stamp or the certificate.
Before bidding or buying a stamp when the information merely states that the stamp comes with a certificate, it is best to ask the seller two things:
- which expertization organization issued the certificate
- what does the certificate state regarding the condition of the stamp
Also ask the seller to post a copy of the certificate with the listing, or send you a copy of it via email.
The American Philatelic Society is working to create an online database of the certificates that the APS Expertizing Committee has issued. Someone will be able to go to the APS web site, enter the certificate number and review it online to make sure that the stamp being offered along with the certificate is the correct stamp. This will be a great service once it is completed. Some certificates are available for viewing now.
The bottom line is do not purchase a valuable stamp without making sure that you will get what you are paying for.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
13 Aug 2015
10:27:12am
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
Pay close attention to Michael's advice. Most Sellers offering items "with certificates" are above board and the certificates are from reputable expertising services. However, we have all seen, time and again that there are some sellers who prey upon the unsuspecting. Taking the extra time, and making the extra effort, can save you not only money, but the disappointment of receiving something you did not bargain for.
Login to Like
this post
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
Even more dangerous is the practice of advertising the stamp as signed!
That guarantees nothing unfortunately.
rrr...
Login to Like
this post
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
Okay, I've got a question!
I recently won a lot on eBay that intrigued me. As most here know, I specialize in the 1902 One Cent Ben Franklin stamp as shown in my avatar. Scott 314 is the imperf variety and there are a bunch of private perforations listed in Scott. One that's not listed is the Covel private perf. The manager of Covel was Ernie Filstrup, a known stamp collector of this era. Covel was located up the street from Shermack and Ernie knew them well enough that he commissioned his own private perforation.
These were used on Covel correspondence, both outgoing and what appears to be SASE incoming mail to Covel. I have examples on cover, as well as both mint and used examples. These often get confused with Scott 318, which is the USPO coil for the issue. I've bought several of the Covel coils sold as "Fake 318".
So I recently bought a pair of these stamps, with a Professional Stamp Experts certificate stating "It is a fake coil pair". Examining the stamps, they are dead on Covel coils. So.... what's the deal with PSE? If indeed they are selling expertizing services, shouldn't they be aware of what they were looking at? Do they stand behind their certificates, as in if I write them and provide proof of the existence of the Covel coils that they will make the certificate right?
AND, beyond that I believe that Scott Specialized needs to list the Covel coils in their Private Perforations section. They exist in large enough quantities that I manage to buy one every so often, and collectors deserve to know they have a legitimate private perf that was cut by Schermack. My latest Scott Specialized is a 2004 edition, so let me know if they've added these to the catalog.
Any ideas?
Here's a scan of one of my Covel imperf covers. I've owned this cover since mid 1970s and it's signed on the back by Pat Herst as genuine private perforation.
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09:25:40pm
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
Not meaning to add fuel to the fire here but not all certificates are correct. Many stamps that received bad certs in the past have gotten good certs when submitted to other organizations, or in some cases resubmitted to the same organization. Some is because of new information, some is because another expert has a different opinion.
There are dealers whose submissions are always suspect. On occasion those dealers have others submit stamps for them. No system is perfect. At the end of the day a certificate is just an opinion.
I don't know if PSE will "make the certificate right". Looking at their website it appears that they are much more into encapsulation and grading then what they refer to as "specialty" items in their chart. If a certificate is desired it might be easier to just submit it to a different service.
Just my two cents
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12:31:49am
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
Contact PSE and tell them of your provenance. Can't hurt, and you may get a revised certificate.
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this post
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
A sheet of 160 was discovered in 1996 by Brusden-White; and recorded as being the only known sheet to exist; the above stamp is from that sheet. It came from the right of the pane, 5th down and 9th across, it also comes with what is known as a Brusden White certificate and is considered rare.
Many valuable stamps are provided with a credible expertised certificate of being genuine. I know of collectors who prefer to have an expertised certificate accompany certain stamps they buy as many forgeries exist (expertising a stamp can be expensive and the wait could be many weeks before you get the item back and a certificate if it passes the test).
Another Australian stamp, the £1 1938 Coronation Specimen, can only be sold with a credible expertised certificate, the preferred certificate for this particular stamp is the Ceremuga certificate (though other certificates had been used to identify the genuineness of the stamp).
There is no iron clad guarantee that an expertised stamp is genuine, mistakes can occur; the dealer I purchase stamps from always cross checks the certified stamps for my peace of mind (guaranteeing that if any stamp sold to me turns out to be counterfeit I am given a choice, choose another stamp to the same value, wait until a genuine version is located or my money back in full).
As Michael (mdroth) pointed out:-
"Contact PSE and tell them of your provenance. Can't hurt, and you may get a revised certificate."
And with eBay I had seen a superb mint unhinged £1 Coronation Specimen selling for less than half the retail price, I noticed that the stamp was a counterfeit yet the certificate it came with was genuine; how could this be? The scammer removed the cancellation of a lightly used 1948 thin paper £1 Coronation commemorative (the colour is a deep bluish slate shading), stamped the overprint onto the stamp as shown on the certificate and actually sold it for $600. The certificate was most likely scanned from the internet.
All £1 1938 Coronation Specimens are printed on thick chalky paper, the colour is of a pale bluish slate shading.
Although there are honest eBay vendors; when it comes to purchasing certified stamps, get them from a reputable dealer.
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this post
12:54:27pm
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
While looking at $2.60 Zeppelins on eBay, I noticed several had a "made in Germany" look to them. Excellent but off color & some minor details fuzzy. Normally I would not even bother as more than half those on eBay were questionable
The seller has been listed several times on StampSmarter so I thought I would question his listing..
Listing - GRAF ZEPPELIN MINT OG NH PSE CERT VF/XF
My question-What is the PSE cert number for this stamp
His answer-its a 2008 CLEAN PSE cert, no flaws of anykind on this item
Reply after I said CLEAN PSE means nothing - We will have to pull out the item from the vault to look it up, which takes time. Once you commit to buy we can send you the cert number.
We are not here on ebay to waste your time or play games
Sounds Fair.......
adding a cert before shipping is easy - this one would have done fine in this case
Even changing the date is simple as the numbers to change 2014 to 2008 are there.
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re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
"Reply after I said CLEAN PSE means nothing - We will have to pull out the item from the vault to look it up, which takes time. Once you commit to buy we can send you the cert number.
We are not here on ebay to waste your time or play games"
SCAMMER ALERT!!!! The certification number should have been readily available; the reason they are on eBay is to waste your time and steal your money in the process.
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re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
Another issue with this seller that irks me is no back scan. Wouldn't buy without seeing the cert and the back scan for that price.
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06:15:45pm
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
The whole idea of a cert is to increase confidence. As a seller, I would never fail to list the complete cert with number. I wouldn't walk from this I'd run
-Ernie
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re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
The reverse is very important.
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re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
I have an interesting experience with certs:
It's definitely an inexact science in some cases, to be sure!
Lars
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08:12:05pm
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
Lars
Are you able to post a 300 dpi of that 351 without any size alteration?
On second thought - never mind
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re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
I think I scanned it at 1200 dpi to blow it up to examine the left edge and add the parallel red lines with the scale. I doubt you can see anything useful at any resolution without blowing it up, because I can scan 300 dpi, but your monitor is limited to how many pixels per inch it can display.
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this post
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
I think the word "opinion" says it all. No expert is flawless, some will err on the side of caution, and some may not know what they are looking at.
I bought on eBay recently what was described as FAKE Scott 318 pair with PSE FAKE certificate. Their opinion was "FAKE 318". Well, I did some research into my collection and I deem the stamps to be GENUINE COVEL PRIVATE PERFORATIONS on Scott 314. I have several copies of the Covel private perfs and a pair on cover from Covel Manufacturing that is signed as genuine on the back by Pat Hearst. I don't know why Scott doesn't list the Covel private perfs or at least acknowledge that they exist and are often confused with Scott 318.
I don't know what to do, I was thinking of sending the whole shebang off to PSE to see if they would alter their certification. I asked here on the board and didn't get any answers.
Login to Like
this post
re: Buying / Bidding Stamps With Certificates
You make a good point. Certs are a good thing generally, but it's important to learn from what the cert tells you and be willing to challenge the cert as you gain more knowledge. I would be surprised if more than 5% of certs are inaccurate regarding fake vs. genuine. The number may well be below 1%, but it certainly isn't zero.
Lars
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