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Europe/Great Britain : J-K for the Grid

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
27 Mar 2015
11:31:25pm
The thread re: Do we have a sheet of Penny Blacks between us? has grown too large and has been closed. Please continue postings and discussion here.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.net
doodles69ca
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Suzanne
27 Mar 2015
11:31:26pm
re: J-K for the Grid

My daughter Shelley just bought this one last weekend. I know it's already listed.

Image Not Found

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"Stamp collectors don't go crazy, they just become unhinged."
auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
28 Mar 2015
11:23:31pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Hi Suzanne,
Congratulations on your new Penny Black. It looks like a very nice copy. I have added your username to the KL spot on the Penny Page.

Regards ... Tim.

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Gerard
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15 May 2015
06:10:10pm
re: J-K for the Grid

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Here is my IB.

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ronnya
15 May 2015
08:18:56pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Hi, No doubt by now a full sheet will have been reconstructed but I have I -E, H-K & M-F AS STAMPS AND i-f and oh on cover.

Wish I had some of the other very nice specimens shown!!!


Ronnya from NZ



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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
15 May 2015
11:27:54pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Actually, Ronnya, we need quite a few more.

For all the new members who recently joined, here is the link to the Penny Black page:

http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_penny_page.php

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
15 May 2015
11:34:25pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Does anyone have the "VR"? I'd like to have a sheet of those!

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"My book, "The Whitechapel Fog" is available on Kindle!"

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ronnya
16 May 2015
12:53:30am
re: J-K for the Grid

I do have a reconstructed sheet of plate 168 of the letter penny reds(SG 43). Perhaps we could dye them and replace the top letter with stars!!

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xstitchalanna
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Wanting to bring the joy of stamp collecting to younger generations
16 May 2015
03:50:11pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Reading this post makes me wish Santa were real.

Santa Baby, I really want a Penny Black, and an album too, any kind will doooooo.... Drooling

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
16 May 2015
10:46:42pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Alanna, the penny black is a relatively common stamp. Its value is driven not by the number of them available, but because it is the first stamp, by the demand for it.

With that said, you can find a filler penny black for very little.

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rvangorder
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APS life member of 25+ years
18 May 2015
01:35:44pm
re: J-K for the Grid

I sent the webmaster my Penny Black letters last week but it hasn't shown up on the sheet yet. I have a KR stamp.
Rick VanGorder, Phoenix

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
02 Aug 2015
03:21:37pm
re: J-K for the Grid

My apologizes to rvangorder and ronnya for not getting your Penny Blacks loaded on the Penny Page. I missed your postings until just recently. They are all loaded on the Penny Page now.

Regards ... Tim.

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tele1962
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06 Aug 2015
01:47:42pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Not sure if you have this one:

Image Not Found

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cocollectibles
06 Aug 2015
03:37:23pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Here's the penny black page in case anyone is looking for it.
Penny Black Page

Looks like NC is already there, but the more the merrier, I say.

Peter

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"TO ERR IS HUMAN; TO FORGIVE, CANINE."
stormsbar
06 Feb 2016
02:39:46pm
re: J-K for the Grid

There appears to be no P/H on your list so here's mine....Image Not Found

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auldstampguy
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07 Feb 2016
12:19:52am
re: J-K for the Grid

Thank you stormsbar. I've added your PH to the Penny Page.

Regards ... Tim.

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Winedrinker
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16 Feb 2016
09:24:36pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Just purchased on Ebay and received today. E F in corners. Yayyyy!

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Wine

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Ningpo
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16 Feb 2016
09:35:53pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Nice copy there.

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david13617
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17 Feb 2016
05:34:25pm

Approvals
re: J-K for the Grid

Here's one more for the PB checkerborad. K-A
Image Not Found

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
17 Feb 2016
07:26:33pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Wine and David,
Congratulations to you both for fine examples with 4 margins each. Wine, I have your PB posted on the Penny Page, David I'll get your PB posted in the morning.

Regards ... Tim.

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
09 Aug 2016
10:00:37pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Thank you Rod L (Newfydad) for adding your EG and PK to the Penny Page.

To all our new members, take a look at your collection and if you have any Penny Blacks, let us include them in our quest to build a complete sheet of Penny Blacks between us.

Regards ... Tim.


To view the Penny Black Page click here.

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ernieinjax
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12 Aug 2016
04:33:56pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Well, I've been wanting to pick one up for a long time but I finally pulled the trigger today and bought me a Penny Black! I've been keeping my eyes open for a special one with a "certain characteristic" that I could afford and I finally found the right copy. It's EJ position, my initials! Would love to add it to the board. Its coming from the UK. I paid £133 plus £8 for international signature confirmation.

The guy is samwells-auctions on eBay and he has 100% feedback. Im fairly certain he has a retail shop in Bath (that's always a good sign). He has a website at http://www.postalhistorygb.com.

I kind of broke some of my golden rules with this one. I never purchase from eBay internationally and I usually like to have more knowledge on something before I grab it. It's not a great picture but it is described as completely sound and free of faults. Can we call this one a Fine? Three great margins all the way around and just one corner touching. At that price I know it's not a steal but how do you think I made out on this one? Even if I paid a few bucks too many I think I'm gonna love my first Penny Black that was monogrammed for me! ha ha.

EJ

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Image Not Found


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CapeStampMan
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Mike
12 Aug 2016
05:00:39pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Imagine acquiring a personalized stamp that was printed for just you, over 100 years before you were even born. Now that's amazing and worth whatever you paid for it. Great stamp and she will sit in your album, allowing you to admire her for a long time.
Good catch there, Ernie!
Mike

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
12 Aug 2016
09:00:32pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Congrats Ernie. That is a nice stamp. Sometimes you just have to do it.

Regards ... Tim

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
20 Oct 2016
09:49:32pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Thank you Joe (earwaves) for submitting his R-I Penny Black to the Penny Page.

Regards ... Tim.

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auldstampguy
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20 Oct 2016
09:52:26pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Here is a Penny Black "K-I" on cover that came in the mail today from the UK.

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I particularly like this sealed letter. Here is the wax seal from the back.

Image Not Found

Regards ... Tim.

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
08:00:26am
re: J-K for the Grid

Tim,

Are you going to try and research that coat of arms?

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auldstampguy
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21 Oct 2016
12:33:43pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Hi Clive (ningpo),
Yes I would very much like to research the coat of arms. Do you have any idea of where I should start?

Tim

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
01:35:14pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Tim,

I can't give you a definitive answer but this may be a good starting point: Identifying coat of arms or crests

I would certainly try and get a high res scan of the seal (or a macro photo image) and try and identify each component, as sometimes these can give clues. Certainly post it on SOR, as there are a couple of us that might be able to do a bit of digging (Sheepshanks may be able to help).

I have done a search on the addressee and have found this:

Image Not Found
Image Not Found

EDIT

I note that the salutation on the envelope is somewhat informal, so I would guess this is from a member of the family.

Do you know where this was sent from?


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sheepshanks
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21 Oct 2016
05:50:24pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Well that's a challenge. I think the crown at the top is indicative of a Baron. The two supporters on either side appear to be Falcons/Eagles and the symbol lower left of the shield looks like a trefoil. The figures in the right hand side look like lions rampant.
The top left design is rather indistinct but to these eyes seems to be two men rowing a boat (it is not really I'm sure).
Lowesby Hall, does not seem to have any connection at that time period to Gilford/ Meades and was the family home of the the Fowkes.
However the seal is similar to that of the Clanwilliam family arms which include an Eagle, Falcon and Trefoil. The Clanwilliams did have connections to Meade.
Short of searching through a lot of photos on the net, maybe an email to Debretts or the Heraldry institute/keepers would give you a quick answer.
Possibly your reference library would have a copy of Debretts peerage and maybe it contains images of the family crests.
Can we possibly have better scan of the actual seal?

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
06:51:03pm
re: J-K for the Grid

The odd thing about the seal, is that it has the same chevron and triple trefoils as in the Clanwilliam coat of arms.


Image Not Found


Forgot to mention, while Sheepshanks is correct about Lowesby Hall, it was used as a hunting lodge. It is possible that Viscount Gilford was in temporary residence during a shoot.

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sheepshanks
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21 Oct 2016
07:29:12pm
re: J-K for the Grid

I am not very "up" on Heraldry, being one of the lowly serfs but do descendants not take a basic arms and adjust them to suit their situation?
By this I mean that a child would perhaps start with the family basics and add according to his rank and services, military or otherwise. This could also reflect spouses lineage.
The grandchildren possibly adding/amending yet again.
I have looked at a number of sites but have, apart from Ningpo's Clanwilliam, not found anything similar.
Curiouser and Curiouser, intrigued now to know the answer.

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
21 Oct 2016
08:14:50pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Here are the best scans that I can add.

Seal with Cancel

Large Seal (as big as I can get)

Regards ... Tim.

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
21 Oct 2016
08:52:10pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Here are both sides of the letter.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found


I think Viscount Gilford was Richard Meade, 3rd Earl of Clanwilliam. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Meade,_3rd_Earl_of_Clanwilliam#Family (sorry can't use a link because of the comma in the URL), who was married to Lady Elizabeth Herbert, which would match with the initials on the letter, right? Lady Elizabeth would use her husbands crest, wouldn't she?

Regards ... Tim.

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
08:52:58pm
re: J-K for the Grid

While Tim is indisposed, I'll post the images of the entire. According to the auction item description, this was posted in 1841. Although very unclear, this may be correct. Perhaps by trying to unravel the details we'll be able to confirm that date. To start; the seal and postmark:

Image Not Found


We need someone to identify the postmark if at all possible.

Now the 'front', with page one of the letter:


Image Not Found

Note that the writer mentions "Papa will not come back with me"

Now the back page:


Image Not Found

My interpretation of the signature, is that it initialled 'EK'.

It transpires that Viscount Gilford married an Elizabeth Kennedy on 17th June 1867. Elizabeth was the second daughter of Sir Arthur Edward Kennedy.

So this letter, written well before she married, refers to 'Papa' (will not come back with me).

Assuming that she is referring to HER father, it's worth checking any dates available for him.

This is what is documented:

Arthur Kennedy entered the British Army, and was gazetted an Ensign in the 11th Foot on 15 August 1827. Until 1837 he served with infantry regiments on Corfu. He spent 1838–1839 and 1841–1844 in British North America. In 1841 he purchased a Captaincy in the 68th Foot.

Kennedy returned to Ireland in 1846, and the following year sold his captaincy and took up an appointment with the Poor Law Commission.

Therefore it is feasible, in view of the early date of this letter (Jan 12) that Sir Arthur Kennedy was in England at this time, until he purchased his Captaincy and returned to British North America in this same year. Added to that, the notation 'Tuesday', on the second page corresponds with a date of January 12 1841; the date the letter was posted.

So by my reckoning, the letter was written by Viscount Gilford's future wife; Elizabeth in 1841.

What is still unclear to me is the family crest. How could Elizabeth use one that is, in part, identical to the Viscount's (the Clanwilliam coat of arms shown in a previous post). I could understand it if they were married at that time.

So this needs clarification and perhaps a better understanding of how coats of arms develop in heraldry.

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sheepshanks
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21 Oct 2016
09:10:46pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Now Tim that complicates things more as I can now see that my men in boat are actually two more trefoils. The supporting birds are definitely Eagles/Falcons (probably one of each).
The complicating bit is that I can now see a cross at the top of the crown which I was thinking originally was a viscounts coronet, now I'm not so sure.
Will keep trying to interpret the various emblems.

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
09:12:34pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Sorry Tim, I was composing my post as you posted yours.

I have noticed an indentation at the top of the letter, which may be an embossed seal. Are you able to see anything of significance within it?

And further to my comment about Lowesby Hall; I checked the shooting season dates. Assuming these have not changed since 1841, the 'open season' is from 1st October to 31st January for most game birds. So, this perhaps reinforces the possibility that Viscount Gilford was pumping lead at the hunting lodge.

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
09:15:57pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Sheepshanks, this might clarify things a bit:

Richard Charles Francis Meade RN (Viscount Gilford); Baron Gillford (sic) in the Irish Peerage and Baron Clanwilliam in the UK Peerage.

Quote:

"Now Tim that complicates things more as I can now see that my men in boat are actually two more trefoils."



I beg to differ. The right hand half of the crest are rampant (lions, or similar); two atop and one below.

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sheepshanks
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21 Oct 2016
09:31:06pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Ningpo, had not appreciated that we had the writing as well. The Kennedy coat of arms looks like this.
Image Not Found
This broadly looks to be the left hand side of the shield. I feel that you are on the right lines with your research.
January 12 1841 was a Tuesday, the date the letter was written. Could the "W" postmark be Westminster?

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sheepshanks
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21 Oct 2016
09:36:33pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Ningpo, I meant the bit upper left side looked like 2 men in a boat and I now see are the trefoils . I could make out the lions!
Maybe the young lady used her fathers/mothers writing set including the wax seal?
Bit like an Agatha Christie novel this one.
OOOdunnit.

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
09:44:34pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Now I AM confused. The two are basically the same element. Could there be a more distant family connection, that would cause the two families to have have the same crest (or part thereof)?

Or, is that design a generic one which a number of families use?

As for the postmark 'W'; I have zero knowledge of British ones. However, I think that in view of the single character used, Westminster is a darned good supposition.

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sheepshanks
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21 Oct 2016
09:57:31pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Anyone have access to a copy of this book, might throw some light on the matter.
"The Postal Cancellations of
London 1840-1890 by HC Westley"
ps what are you doing still up at 3am?


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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
10:15:23pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Trying to beat yesterday: 5am.

There's a possibility the 'W' is West London Mail Office.

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auldstampguy
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21 Oct 2016
10:25:35pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Ningpo,
The embossed seal at the top of the page has three names within an oval: John Day, MK Lion, Mowman (or perhaps Mowmany). That means nothing to me.

Regards ... Tim.

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sheepshanks
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21 Oct 2016
10:34:53pm
re: J-K for the Grid

The coronet appears to be that of the Earl of Pembroke who was Richards father, their arms also include the three lions. The Gil(L)fords were an Irish family very much connected to the Clanwilliam's, so it seems that the seal draws upon a number of items from various families of nobility.
Have just seen Tims last post and will see where that leads.

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Ningpo
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21 Oct 2016
10:53:58pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Quote:

"The embossed seal at the top of the page has three names within an oval: John Day, MK Lion, Mowman"



I think this may be a paper manufacturers (or stationers) seal. So no further help.

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Ningpo
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09 May 2017
06:46:34am
re: J-K for the Grid

Well at last I have bought my very first Penny Black; lettered F G. The fact that it has the smallest of bottom margins, persuaded me that it was a respectable copy for the price.

From what I can see, letters 'F G' has not been recorded so far on the Penny Black sheet page.


Image Not Found

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khj
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09 May 2017
08:31:19am
re: J-K for the Grid

There is an error in the descriptive text at the top of the "Stamporama Penny Page".

The 2nd sentence in the first paragraph reads:

Quote:

"Each stamp was uniquely labelled with it's position on the sheet by placing the column (A to L) and the row (A to T) in the left and Right bottom corners respectively."



The corner check letter labels are actually row at left bottom and column at right bottom. There is also a minor typo with the word "its". So the sentence should read (corrections are underlined):

Each stamp was uniquely labelled with its position on the sheet by placing the row (A to T) and the column (A to L) in the left and right bottom corners respectively.

Sorry to put this here, but I had used the "Contact Webmaster" option a while back -- perhaps the message got lost somewhere.

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DouglasGPerry
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APS Member #196859
09 May 2017
09:16:12am
re: J-K for the Grid

I see that The Penny Page is missing position JI. I purchased this at the World Stamp Show in New York last year:

Image Not Found

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ernieinjax
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09 May 2017
02:29:14pm
re: J-K for the Grid

That's an attractive Penny Black Douglas. Thumbs up! Just love that stamp.

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
09 May 2017
03:38:26pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Ningo and Douglas,
Thank you for adding your Penny Blacks to the Penny Page. I have updated the page accordingly.

Kim,
Thanks for the correction. Sorry I didn't get it done when you brought it up before.

Regards ... Tim.

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nigelc
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09 May 2017
04:20:38pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Thanks Ningpo for bringing this topic back to life.

I was intrigued just now by the discussion on Tim's nice cover to Viscount Gilford which I missed when it was posted in October.

I read this as a letter to Richard from his mother, Elizabeth.

After all he was only born in 1832 so being addressed as "Dear Gilly" makes sense as a pet name and it fits with the references to "Papa".

The arms in the seal are appropriate for her as a married woman with her husband's arms (i.e. Earl of Clanwilliam) impaled with her father's arms (i.e. Earl of Pembroke).

I can't contribute a stamp to the sheet but I do enjoy seeing other members' penny blacks.






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Lutok
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06 Nov 2017
02:12:02pm
re: J-K for the Grid

I just got this one to fill another spot.

Image Not Found

Lucky

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auldstampguy
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06 Nov 2017
08:39:59pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Hi Lucky,
Thanks for adding your new Penny Black to the Penny Page. I have updated it on the page.

It is a nice copy with four good margins. Well done.

Regards ... Tim.

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earwaves
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06 Feb 2018
03:21:21pm
re: J-K for the Grid

My "R-I" is up there somewhere.

Since then, I've been to the London's wonderful Postal Museum, where there is on display this uncut full sheet of Penny Blacks. As you can see in the closer shot, it came off the press without the position lettering.


Image Not Found


Image Not Found

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Ningpo
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06 Feb 2018
05:44:22pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Here's one more for the Penny Black sheet, with a rather neat Maltese Cross.

From what I can see, no example with the letters 'Q E' has been recorded so far on the Penny Black sheet page.



Image Not Found

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earwaves
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10 Feb 2018
02:08:02pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Below is a Penny Black crossword puzzle I made.

To make a hard copy, right-click the picture and select Open Image in New Tab or Save Image As or Copy Image to a word processor, then Print. Go to my web site's Also page if you get stuck on an answer.


Image Not Found

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earwaves
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10 Feb 2018
02:26:05pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Cool tattoos on Ernieinjax's Vickie.

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egertoni
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10 Feb 2018
03:31:46pm
re: J-K for the Grid

Here's my only Penny Black, a bit the worse for wear (I can relate to that), but it's a BD, which we don't appear to have.


Image Not Found

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auldstampguy
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11 Feb 2018
09:45:14am
re: J-K for the Grid

Earwaves, Ningpo and Egertoni, I have add your Penny Blacks to the Penny Page. Thanks for your submissions.

Regards ... Tim.

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earwaves
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15 Feb 2018
05:35:52pm
re: J-K for the Grid

This dog is accurately described by the APS StampStore seller as a "seriously flawed filler."

Even though it was apparently cut out with a pirate's knife (and maybe his teeth) and seems to have been canceled in mud, it does have my initials. So, of course, I had to have it. Good thing the price was irresistible.

Image Not Found

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philb
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15 Feb 2018
08:29:24pm

Auctions
re: J-K for the Grid

Ok, You showed me yours, heres my BF ..not big but we do the best we can !Image Not Found

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earwaves
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22 Feb 2018
04:35:13pm
re: J-K for the Grid

F-F, sort of . . .

Does this one count?

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Was Arthur Laing, Esq. a very early stamp collector who hadn't yet heard of soaking? Or would water have made the quill pen ink run?

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
23 Feb 2018
10:41:51am
re: J-K for the Grid

Phil and Joe,
Your Penny Blacks are added to the Penny Page. Thank you for sharing them. The Penny Page is coming along well.

Regards ... Tim.

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philb
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23 Feb 2018
05:11:06pm

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re: J-K for the Grid

Ah positive reinforcement..thanks Tim !

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"If a man would be anything, he must be himself."
earwaves
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24 Feb 2018
11:51:24am
re: J-K for the Grid

Tim,

When we fill the grid completely (or get stuck really close), I think you should alert mainstream stamp publications of the feat.

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