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Europe/Other : FIUME

 

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Milco
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06 Aug 2015
02:40:54pm
...recently come back from home in Yugoslavia with small collection of mint and used FIUME (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_of_Fiume), so to show one "worth to have" item from this field:

Image Not Found

....here we talk about Michel catalog number: 98-113 in used condition.

Full catalog value are 130.00 euro, so market value can be very affordable for serious collection, I think that 25-30% of Michel catalog value can be achieved with serious dealer.

best regards
Milco

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sheepshanks
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06 Aug 2015
09:35:57pm
re: FIUME

With just a cursory inspection it appears that the same postmark/cto/handstamp has been used on all the stamps. According to Wikipedia there were many forgeries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postage_stamps_and_postal_history_of_Fiume
Maybe one of our experts can weigh in with a qualified verdict.
Vic

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TuskenRaider
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07 Aug 2015
12:02:42am
re: FIUME

Hi Everyone;

Yea the identical cancels, set off my red flag alarm too.

They almost have to be CTO or possible forgeries....
TuskenRaider

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Rhinelander
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Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society

07 Aug 2015
07:23:03pm
re: FIUME

Hi Milco,

this is a beautiful set and I agree entirely that Fiume makes for an interesting collecting area "off the beaten path." I do not collect this country; the existence of abundant forgeries of almost all stamps, expensive and inexpensive alike, is a definite turn-off.

Varo Tyler, in the revised and expanded edition of Focus on Forgeries, discusses a couple of the forgeries of the pictorial sets, including the one you are showing. The real plague of course are the overprint forgeries of the first issues and throughout. Serrane, in his 1926 Stamp Forgeries of the World, warns "the average collector to abstain, because professional specialization is need to cope" with the overprints. The tomb has some helpful information on forgeries, but not much past the 1919 (Michel #48) issues. More specialized literature certainly must exist for the stamps of this country.

If you check your Michel, you will see that the Gabriele d'Anunzio set was valid to January 31, 1921. The February 15, 1922 favor cancels on your set, after the issue was retired, certainly reduce the value. Of course, this is a matter of personal preference to some extent, but the used price of 130 EUR is for contemporaneous postally used stamps. I would think that 25% of used may be OK in that case. A genuine set should bring about catalog value, in my opinion.

The three low values have September 12, 1921 (= first day) cancels, if I make it out correctly. These look good. The differences between original and forgery for one of the forgeries of this set, illustrated by nl1947, are also described in Tyler. Carefully check the O and S in POSTALE in the top right corner. Unfortunately, Tyler notes that other forgeries than the one illustrated exist.

I feel a little bad about all of us raining on your parade. Like you said, it is a beautiful set and you are right that it really is worth having.

Arno

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musicman
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APS #213005

07 Aug 2015
10:06:17pm
re: FIUME

....would 'favor-cancels' have been a possibility back in 1921?


Just curious.....






Randy

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khj
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08 Aug 2015
12:49:26am
re: FIUME

Yes. Can be expected among many European areas, especially after a new authority is in place or conclusion of a war or armed struggle. Favor cancels, pre-dated cancels, and fake cancels exist. But as Rhinelander points out, some favor cancels still hold a fair premium even if not full premium -- depending on the stamp issue.

Be especially careful of issues (e.g., German) in which the "used" price (sometimes italicized in Scott) is significantly higher than the mint price.

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Milco
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14 Aug 2015
03:28:05pm
re: FIUME

...thanks for comment and information, as I still LEARN, it help me understand this "problematic" period of Philately. So, I "put finger on my head" and think, what was "point" when someone decided to make fake/forgery of this sets? Just an profit? Money? Effort involved in making very good forgery, almost similar as original, hardly reward with this profit! Or, at the time, it was Philately market much bigger, and really make good profit?

Any way, here is another example from this country, this time Michel number 114-130 overprint, with one variety, partially canceled, and partially mint, as is, from full catalog value of 217.00 euro, I think, that market will show minimum 100.00 euro realized price (including postage and auction premium).

Image Not Found

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

14 Aug 2015
04:59:19pm
re: FIUME

Many countries back in the old days canceled stamps as remainders when they were no longer valid, and sold them to dealers. North Borneo is one such area. British area, even back to the Victoria stamps, sees plenty of CTO stamps as well. As KHJ said, the italics in the used column of the catalog are a good hint of CTOs as opposed to postally used. Special notes in the catalog also alert collectors.

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Milco
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05 Sep 2015
09:09:58am
re: FIUME

...so I will show last items which arrive today to this small collection, as I see in Michel, You will need to be real expert to see what and where to put in collection!
Image Not Found

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

05 Sep 2015
08:35:22pm
re: FIUME

FYI, the June 2013 issue of The American Philatelist has an article that shows examples of dozens of different confirmed counterfeit "FIUME" overprints. What I didn't like about the article is that they didn't show any confirmed genuine overprints.

There is a high probability that overprinted Hungarian stamps have counterfeit overprints.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

05 Sep 2015
10:33:23pm
re: FIUME

Are you saying that the images you provided are genuine examples?

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

06 Sep 2015
07:08:55pm
re: FIUME

Thank you, sir!

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
Milco

06 Aug 2015
02:40:54pm

...recently come back from home in Yugoslavia with small collection of mint and used FIUME (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_of_Fiume), so to show one "worth to have" item from this field:

Image Not Found

....here we talk about Michel catalog number: 98-113 in used condition.

Full catalog value are 130.00 euro, so market value can be very affordable for serious collection, I think that 25-30% of Michel catalog value can be achieved with serious dealer.

best regards
Milco

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

stampmusthave.blogsp ...
Members Picture
sheepshanks

06 Aug 2015
09:35:57pm

re: FIUME

With just a cursory inspection it appears that the same postmark/cto/handstamp has been used on all the stamps. According to Wikipedia there were many forgeries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postage_stamps_and_postal_history_of_Fiume
Maybe one of our experts can weigh in with a qualified verdict.
Vic

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
TuskenRaider

07 Aug 2015
12:02:42am

re: FIUME

Hi Everyone;

Yea the identical cancels, set off my red flag alarm too.

They almost have to be CTO or possible forgeries....
TuskenRaider

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/sto ...
Members Picture
Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
07 Aug 2015
07:23:03pm

re: FIUME

Hi Milco,

this is a beautiful set and I agree entirely that Fiume makes for an interesting collecting area "off the beaten path." I do not collect this country; the existence of abundant forgeries of almost all stamps, expensive and inexpensive alike, is a definite turn-off.

Varo Tyler, in the revised and expanded edition of Focus on Forgeries, discusses a couple of the forgeries of the pictorial sets, including the one you are showing. The real plague of course are the overprint forgeries of the first issues and throughout. Serrane, in his 1926 Stamp Forgeries of the World, warns "the average collector to abstain, because professional specialization is need to cope" with the overprints. The tomb has some helpful information on forgeries, but not much past the 1919 (Michel #48) issues. More specialized literature certainly must exist for the stamps of this country.

If you check your Michel, you will see that the Gabriele d'Anunzio set was valid to January 31, 1921. The February 15, 1922 favor cancels on your set, after the issue was retired, certainly reduce the value. Of course, this is a matter of personal preference to some extent, but the used price of 130 EUR is for contemporaneous postally used stamps. I would think that 25% of used may be OK in that case. A genuine set should bring about catalog value, in my opinion.

The three low values have September 12, 1921 (= first day) cancels, if I make it out correctly. These look good. The differences between original and forgery for one of the forgeries of this set, illustrated by nl1947, are also described in Tyler. Carefully check the O and S in POSTALE in the top right corner. Unfortunately, Tyler notes that other forgeries than the one illustrated exist.

I feel a little bad about all of us raining on your parade. Like you said, it is a beautiful set and you are right that it really is worth having.

Arno

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
musicman

APS #213005
07 Aug 2015
10:06:17pm

re: FIUME

....would 'favor-cancels' have been a possibility back in 1921?


Just curious.....






Randy

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this post
Members Picture
khj

08 Aug 2015
12:49:26am

re: FIUME

Yes. Can be expected among many European areas, especially after a new authority is in place or conclusion of a war or armed struggle. Favor cancels, pre-dated cancels, and fake cancels exist. But as Rhinelander points out, some favor cancels still hold a fair premium even if not full premium -- depending on the stamp issue.

Be especially careful of issues (e.g., German) in which the "used" price (sometimes italicized in Scott) is significantly higher than the mint price.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Milco

14 Aug 2015
03:28:05pm

re: FIUME

...thanks for comment and information, as I still LEARN, it help me understand this "problematic" period of Philately. So, I "put finger on my head" and think, what was "point" when someone decided to make fake/forgery of this sets? Just an profit? Money? Effort involved in making very good forgery, almost similar as original, hardly reward with this profit! Or, at the time, it was Philately market much bigger, and really make good profit?

Any way, here is another example from this country, this time Michel number 114-130 overprint, with one variety, partially canceled, and partially mint, as is, from full catalog value of 217.00 euro, I think, that market will show minimum 100.00 euro realized price (including postage and auction premium).

Image Not Found

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Login to Like
this post

stampmusthave.blogsp ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
14 Aug 2015
04:59:19pm

re: FIUME

Many countries back in the old days canceled stamps as remainders when they were no longer valid, and sold them to dealers. North Borneo is one such area. British area, even back to the Victoria stamps, sees plenty of CTO stamps as well. As KHJ said, the italics in the used column of the catalog are a good hint of CTOs as opposed to postally used. Special notes in the catalog also alert collectors.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
Milco

05 Sep 2015
09:09:58am

re: FIUME

...so I will show last items which arrive today to this small collection, as I see in Michel, You will need to be real expert to see what and where to put in collection!
Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

stampmusthave.blogsp ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
05 Sep 2015
08:35:22pm

re: FIUME

FYI, the June 2013 issue of The American Philatelist has an article that shows examples of dozens of different confirmed counterfeit "FIUME" overprints. What I didn't like about the article is that they didn't show any confirmed genuine overprints.

There is a high probability that overprinted Hungarian stamps have counterfeit overprints.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
05 Sep 2015
10:33:23pm

re: FIUME

Are you saying that the images you provided are genuine examples?

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
06 Sep 2015
07:08:55pm

re: FIUME

Thank you, sir!

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
        

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