Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Can someone enlighten me regarding this Postmark
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This Pitney Bowes postmarking stamp was used by the Railway Mail Service (RMS) on the West Division ("W.D.") of the Omaha & Ogden route. The route was divided at Cheyenne, Wyoming, between the East and West Divisions. The West Division was 516 miles between Cheyenne, Wyoming, and Ogden, Utah, and was operated over the Union Pacific Railroad
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A thousand THANKS, I love this place and am so glad I found SOR, your help is much appreciated......Bill
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Cool. Wouldn't that be part of the Transcontinental Railroad? When I was in Salt Lake City for a conference a few years ago my friends and I pointed the rental car to Wyoming just so we could say we were there. The plan was to take Route 80 into Wyoming and to find the first small town, eat at a local restaurant and make it back to SLC before dark. Route 80 was built parallel to the tracks as the railroads had found the easiest route through the mountains and had already cut their way through. As the railroad was built, little towns sprouted up in these narrow valleys.
We pointed that rental car west towards Cheyenne, with only intent to find the first representative small town. One day I want to take the entire trip.
The Union Pacific rails ride right alongside Route 80
One of the tiny little towns that sprouted up alongside the railroad was Echo, Utah. Maybe a dozen buildings, nothing built in this century!
The Echo post office is a tiny little place. Too bad this was on a Sunday or I would've had some covers postmarked to commemorate my visit.
Historical monument in "Downtown Echo"
The ride is downright pretty, but I can only imagine the challenge of building a railroad through it in the 1850s!
Figure that your postcard rode right through here!
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The "R.P.O." in your cancellation stands for "Railway Post Office". Railway Post Offices were common through into the 1950s. I believe that they even served as mobile mail boxes; at stops along the way, in rural areas, people could slide letters into slots in the sides of the cars.
My home town of Silver City, New Mexico was served by a Railway Post Office until 1953. Here's a cover that was serviced by that R.P.O.:
My understanding was that the order of the cities named in the cancellation was reversed when the train was going in the opposite direction, but my example doesn't bear that out since it was obviously posted in Silver City. Perhaps I am mistaken.
I found the following posts about the Rincon & Silver City R.P.O. on the Trainorders.com web site, dated Sept. 12, 2008:
"I ran on the Rincon & Silver City RPO back in 1953 shortly before they discontinued the RPO. It was a mixed train with one coach (15 foot RPO,15 foot baggage and the rest was for passengers which as I remember there wasn't any. "
"The train ran directly to Silver City. It left Rincon around 6am and got to Silver City around 11, then left Silver City around 6pm and got back to Rincon around 10 pm. We use to pouch all those little town up there and they went out on a Star Route out of Silver City. I was just a "Sub" at that time and almost the last person to run on it as it was pulled off soon after. It was pulled by a Steamer. On the way up they use to stop and do some switching and leave the mail car set until they got done. I never did know just what all they were doing as I was busy sorting the mail. The route it took was doing southwest down to Deming and then North West up to Silver City."
This map shows the Rincon & Silver City R.P.O. route:
I've always thought that R.P.O. postal history of any region would be fascinating, but I've never delved into it deeply.
Bob
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The Railway Post Offices operated from 1869 to 1977. They were not available to the public to conduct post office business. Instead, they were rail cars specially designed to pick up, sort and drop off mail at designated stations along various rail routes. Mail sacks were placed on a mail hook at a passenger station and caught on the fly. Mail sacks were thrown from the train to a waiting post office employee. This is how mail was delivered to most small towns. The people working on the RPO cars were post office employees, and were armed. No one other than post office employees were allowed in the RPO cars, not even railroad employees.
The post office began to change processing mail from the trains to trucks (Interstate Highway System) and airplane (regional airports). Contracts with the railroads were not renewed as they expired in the 1960s. This caused a huge financial loss for the railroads, and helped to bring about the demise of many roads.
As the mail was shifted from rail to truck and plane, mail service delivery times began to grow longer. The USPS did an experiment not too long ago by reviving a few RPO routes to see if handling times would improve. They did, but protests from the trucking and airline industries forced the USPS to cancel the experiment, and service times for those routes again grew longer.
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Speaking of Highways I wonder how long this lasted
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The situation in Canada regarding the use of Railway Post Offices may have been somewhat different than that in the U.S. I found the following in the on-line Canadian Encyclopedia:
"The post office was one of the first federal-government departments formed after Confederation and took over the postal service on 1 April 1868. As the Canadian Pacific Railway stretched across the prairies in the 1880s a railway post office, addressed "End of the Line," moved with it, bringing banking, money-order and mail-order facilities to the settlers."
My memory concerning mail slots in Railway Post Office cars seems to have been correct. According to a Wikipedia article,
"Most RPO cars had a mail slot on the side of the car, so that mail could actually be deposited in the car, much like using the corner mail box, while the train was stopped at a station. Those desiring the fastest delivery would bring their letters to the train station for dispatch on the RPO, knowing that overnight delivery would be virtually assured. The mail handled in this manner received a cancellation just as if it had been mailed at a local post office, with the cancel giving the train number, endpoint cities of the RPO route, the date, and RMS Railway Mail Service or PTS Postal Transportation Service between the killer bars."
Bob
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Early 1900's train picking up mail on the fly.
Library of Congress Video
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Bob, slight differences in the US and Canadian processes.
In the video, you can see a bag being tossed out of the RPO. That would be the mail to be delivered in town.
In some countries, the local post offices would have a deadline when they had to take the mail to the train station or the docks for the mail to go on the day's train or boat. There was a small time window where someone who needed to get the mail onto the train or boat for that day's shipment could do so. If it wasn't too late, a special runner would take the mail piece to the station or dock before the train or boat departed. The post offices would access a late fee for the expedited service. Thus the use of late fee stamps (Scott prefix "I") by some countries.
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Here is a link about the US Highway Post Office:
http://postalmuseumblog.si.edu/highway-post-office/
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In the UK most long distance mail went by rail from the very earliest days. I remember travelling on an overnight mail train from Leeds to Gloucester in the early 60s en route to a Field Study Centre in deepest scarcely inhabited West Wales. The train consisted of one passenger carriage and about 20 assorted mail vehicles - some based on proper carriage underframes, and some just being glorified vans - although of course for safety reasons all were "continuous braked". The passenger carriage was next to the locomotive at the fron.t At every major ( and some not so major ) station en route the train would stop at a platform absolutely packed with luggage trolleys full of mail, and about a dozen postal and railway staff would exchange the outgoing mail with the incoming- so the platform would be almost as full at the end as the beginning. The journey seemed to be endless,as of course a considerable amount of time was allowed in the timetable for loading and unloading. This train had started long before Leeds ( probably Newcastle ) and was travelling well beyond Gloucester - probably to Exeter or Plymouth or even Penzance. I suspect that there was a network of services connecting at various rail hubs ( Derby I think being one on the route of this train - and probably Bristol). This was all bagged mail - totally different to the much faster and more romantic "Night Mail" of poem fame which carried the latest timed material with a sorting carriage staffed by sorters and automatic lineside pick-up and drop off at speed.
The rolling stock used was pretty ancient,but it was a useful facility for people needing to catch an early train at the other end of the country. I had to use that train because I had to catch a specific train at Gloucester for Cardiff which had left London early in the morning - then I had to catch a Cardiff-Carmarthen train with onward connection to Pembroke where we were met by a chartered bus to the back of beyond -look it up on a map-the journey took about 16 hours total, but would probably be completely impossible today as there are very few if any overnight trains on non-trunk routes like London_Edinburgh or Glasgow - and most of the stations this particular train called at are now closed. Most mail now travels by road - and there is a National Distribution Centre right in the middle of England near Rugby and articulated vehicles are in and out all night. Coincidentally said NDC is directly opposite where I used to work nights ( on a huge distribution park). If I was a bit late for work( 10pm start) I used to have drive past about 20 trucks queuing up to get in.
Of course in the 60s there was no 2-tier mail system like now - the carriage of mail is now much more evenly spread across the day - and so the staff and vehicles are much more productive, despite a slower service. Any transport professional will tell you that any business that can be transferred from the peak to the off-Peak is much more profitable because it is able to use resources that would otherwise be standing.
Malcolm
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Can someone enlighten me regarding this Postmark
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07:59:09pm
re: Post Mark Help
This Pitney Bowes postmarking stamp was used by the Railway Mail Service (RMS) on the West Division ("W.D.") of the Omaha & Ogden route. The route was divided at Cheyenne, Wyoming, between the East and West Divisions. The West Division was 516 miles between Cheyenne, Wyoming, and Ogden, Utah, and was operated over the Union Pacific Railroad
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re: Post Mark Help
A thousand THANKS, I love this place and am so glad I found SOR, your help is much appreciated......Bill
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this post
re: Post Mark Help
Cool. Wouldn't that be part of the Transcontinental Railroad? When I was in Salt Lake City for a conference a few years ago my friends and I pointed the rental car to Wyoming just so we could say we were there. The plan was to take Route 80 into Wyoming and to find the first small town, eat at a local restaurant and make it back to SLC before dark. Route 80 was built parallel to the tracks as the railroads had found the easiest route through the mountains and had already cut their way through. As the railroad was built, little towns sprouted up in these narrow valleys.
We pointed that rental car west towards Cheyenne, with only intent to find the first representative small town. One day I want to take the entire trip.
The Union Pacific rails ride right alongside Route 80
One of the tiny little towns that sprouted up alongside the railroad was Echo, Utah. Maybe a dozen buildings, nothing built in this century!
The Echo post office is a tiny little place. Too bad this was on a Sunday or I would've had some covers postmarked to commemorate my visit.
Historical monument in "Downtown Echo"
The ride is downright pretty, but I can only imagine the challenge of building a railroad through it in the 1850s!
Figure that your postcard rode right through here!
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re: Post Mark Help
The "R.P.O." in your cancellation stands for "Railway Post Office". Railway Post Offices were common through into the 1950s. I believe that they even served as mobile mail boxes; at stops along the way, in rural areas, people could slide letters into slots in the sides of the cars.
My home town of Silver City, New Mexico was served by a Railway Post Office until 1953. Here's a cover that was serviced by that R.P.O.:
My understanding was that the order of the cities named in the cancellation was reversed when the train was going in the opposite direction, but my example doesn't bear that out since it was obviously posted in Silver City. Perhaps I am mistaken.
I found the following posts about the Rincon & Silver City R.P.O. on the Trainorders.com web site, dated Sept. 12, 2008:
"I ran on the Rincon & Silver City RPO back in 1953 shortly before they discontinued the RPO. It was a mixed train with one coach (15 foot RPO,15 foot baggage and the rest was for passengers which as I remember there wasn't any. "
"The train ran directly to Silver City. It left Rincon around 6am and got to Silver City around 11, then left Silver City around 6pm and got back to Rincon around 10 pm. We use to pouch all those little town up there and they went out on a Star Route out of Silver City. I was just a "Sub" at that time and almost the last person to run on it as it was pulled off soon after. It was pulled by a Steamer. On the way up they use to stop and do some switching and leave the mail car set until they got done. I never did know just what all they were doing as I was busy sorting the mail. The route it took was doing southwest down to Deming and then North West up to Silver City."
This map shows the Rincon & Silver City R.P.O. route:
I've always thought that R.P.O. postal history of any region would be fascinating, but I've never delved into it deeply.
Bob
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11:44:32pm
re: Post Mark Help
The Railway Post Offices operated from 1869 to 1977. They were not available to the public to conduct post office business. Instead, they were rail cars specially designed to pick up, sort and drop off mail at designated stations along various rail routes. Mail sacks were placed on a mail hook at a passenger station and caught on the fly. Mail sacks were thrown from the train to a waiting post office employee. This is how mail was delivered to most small towns. The people working on the RPO cars were post office employees, and were armed. No one other than post office employees were allowed in the RPO cars, not even railroad employees.
The post office began to change processing mail from the trains to trucks (Interstate Highway System) and airplane (regional airports). Contracts with the railroads were not renewed as they expired in the 1960s. This caused a huge financial loss for the railroads, and helped to bring about the demise of many roads.
As the mail was shifted from rail to truck and plane, mail service delivery times began to grow longer. The USPS did an experiment not too long ago by reviving a few RPO routes to see if handling times would improve. They did, but protests from the trucking and airline industries forced the USPS to cancel the experiment, and service times for those routes again grew longer.
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re: Post Mark Help
Speaking of Highways I wonder how long this lasted
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re: Post Mark Help
The situation in Canada regarding the use of Railway Post Offices may have been somewhat different than that in the U.S. I found the following in the on-line Canadian Encyclopedia:
"The post office was one of the first federal-government departments formed after Confederation and took over the postal service on 1 April 1868. As the Canadian Pacific Railway stretched across the prairies in the 1880s a railway post office, addressed "End of the Line," moved with it, bringing banking, money-order and mail-order facilities to the settlers."
My memory concerning mail slots in Railway Post Office cars seems to have been correct. According to a Wikipedia article,
"Most RPO cars had a mail slot on the side of the car, so that mail could actually be deposited in the car, much like using the corner mail box, while the train was stopped at a station. Those desiring the fastest delivery would bring their letters to the train station for dispatch on the RPO, knowing that overnight delivery would be virtually assured. The mail handled in this manner received a cancellation just as if it had been mailed at a local post office, with the cancel giving the train number, endpoint cities of the RPO route, the date, and RMS Railway Mail Service or PTS Postal Transportation Service between the killer bars."
Bob
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02:18:54pm
re: Post Mark Help
Early 1900's train picking up mail on the fly.
Library of Congress Video
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10:39:08am
re: Post Mark Help
Bob, slight differences in the US and Canadian processes.
In the video, you can see a bag being tossed out of the RPO. That would be the mail to be delivered in town.
In some countries, the local post offices would have a deadline when they had to take the mail to the train station or the docks for the mail to go on the day's train or boat. There was a small time window where someone who needed to get the mail onto the train or boat for that day's shipment could do so. If it wasn't too late, a special runner would take the mail piece to the station or dock before the train or boat departed. The post offices would access a late fee for the expedited service. Thus the use of late fee stamps (Scott prefix "I") by some countries.
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10:43:25am
re: Post Mark Help
Here is a link about the US Highway Post Office:
http://postalmuseumblog.si.edu/highway-post-office/
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08:09:54am
re: Post Mark Help
In the UK most long distance mail went by rail from the very earliest days. I remember travelling on an overnight mail train from Leeds to Gloucester in the early 60s en route to a Field Study Centre in deepest scarcely inhabited West Wales. The train consisted of one passenger carriage and about 20 assorted mail vehicles - some based on proper carriage underframes, and some just being glorified vans - although of course for safety reasons all were "continuous braked". The passenger carriage was next to the locomotive at the fron.t At every major ( and some not so major ) station en route the train would stop at a platform absolutely packed with luggage trolleys full of mail, and about a dozen postal and railway staff would exchange the outgoing mail with the incoming- so the platform would be almost as full at the end as the beginning. The journey seemed to be endless,as of course a considerable amount of time was allowed in the timetable for loading and unloading. This train had started long before Leeds ( probably Newcastle ) and was travelling well beyond Gloucester - probably to Exeter or Plymouth or even Penzance. I suspect that there was a network of services connecting at various rail hubs ( Derby I think being one on the route of this train - and probably Bristol). This was all bagged mail - totally different to the much faster and more romantic "Night Mail" of poem fame which carried the latest timed material with a sorting carriage staffed by sorters and automatic lineside pick-up and drop off at speed.
The rolling stock used was pretty ancient,but it was a useful facility for people needing to catch an early train at the other end of the country. I had to use that train because I had to catch a specific train at Gloucester for Cardiff which had left London early in the morning - then I had to catch a Cardiff-Carmarthen train with onward connection to Pembroke where we were met by a chartered bus to the back of beyond -look it up on a map-the journey took about 16 hours total, but would probably be completely impossible today as there are very few if any overnight trains on non-trunk routes like London_Edinburgh or Glasgow - and most of the stations this particular train called at are now closed. Most mail now travels by road - and there is a National Distribution Centre right in the middle of England near Rugby and articulated vehicles are in and out all night. Coincidentally said NDC is directly opposite where I used to work nights ( on a huge distribution park). If I was a bit late for work( 10pm start) I used to have drive past about 20 trucks queuing up to get in.
Of course in the 60s there was no 2-tier mail system like now - the carriage of mail is now much more evenly spread across the day - and so the staff and vehicles are much more productive, despite a slower service. Any transport professional will tell you that any business that can be transferred from the peak to the off-Peak is much more profitable because it is able to use resources that would otherwise be standing.
Malcolm
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