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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

 

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Cattywumpuss
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The odds are good, but the goods are odd.

24 Jul 2015
11:56:29pm
Hello again fellow stamp fiends. I have another puzzling situation which I am sure somebody in here can help me with. I was continuing to sort through my collection tonight when I came across a lovely example of some US 1 Cent Postage Due stamps.

I consulted my Scott US Pocket Stamp Catalog and the US 1 Cent Postage Due are listed in the back with the special stamps. I started to get excited that I had indeed identified the stamp correctly and even found a picture of the same stamp (or a very similar looking one)I had in my hand. However, this is where things get confusing for me. After reading on I was left feeling that unless I had a degree in color recognition the catalog was not really doing me much good.

To me, the stamps I had in my hand were red. However, according to Scott, they might be vermilion from 1894 (Scott J29, don't I wish!), or deep claret from 1895 (Scott J38), or possibly deep claret from 1910-12 (Scott J45), or rose carmine from 1910-12 (Scott J45a), or for all I know even dull rose from 1914-15 (Scott J52a).

So how on earth do you tell what shade of red, or correctly named color you are looking at? Sad I realize that identifying the proper color and age can make rather a difference in value. My Pocket Catalog says an unused J29 is worth $2,250.00 and an unused J38 is worth $13.50. I am hoping somebody here can offer some help or advice.

Here is a picture of the stamps I found in my collection:

Image Not Found

and here is what the back looks like:

Image Not Found

All four are joined together.

Once again I appreciate any input you folks may have. Thanks, and hope you all have a wonderful weekend,

Paul.



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smauggie
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25 Jul 2015
01:18:56am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

How do the perfs gauge out?

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canalzonepostalhistory.wordpress.com
Cattywumpuss
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The odds are good, but the goods are odd.

25 Jul 2015
01:26:52am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I have absolutely no idea what you mean?!?! Big Grin

I'm pretty new to stamp collecting Smauggie. Still got a lot to learn.

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cocollectibles

25 Jul 2015
06:49:14am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

This older post might help.

SOR discussion post on postage due stamp colors

Peter

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"TO ERR IS HUMAN; TO FORGIVE, CANINE."
Ningpo
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25 Jul 2015
08:39:24am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Paul

Although I don't have a Scott Colour Key, below is a scan of the colours you mentioned as shown on the Stanley Gibbons Colour Key.This should only be used as a general guide, as colour definitions can vary.


Image Not Found


Ideally, stamp colours should be compared directly with the actual colour key (not a PC screen), in a North light without sunshine.

Bear in mind that these are SOLID swatches of colour whereas lines of shading give a lighter appearance.

Anyway, based on what I can see, I think you can eliminate vermilion and dull rose. That leaves you with deep claret or rose-carmine. Perhaps rose-carmine is closest.

Just remember, comparing colours on a PC monitor is not an accurate way to do it.



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mbo1142
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

25 Jul 2015
09:16:41am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Just counting the perf holes from the scan, I would make a wild guess that the stamps are perf 12. In my humble opinion, the next best thing to do would be to check for watermark. That might help narrow down the choice of color.

Just my 2 cents.

Mel

EDIT:

Believe I have to agree with cathotel. When I counted the perfs the first time, I did so from the back and counted the vertical row as the horizontal row. The scan had been turned.Blushing and yes I know, counting perf holes is not the way to measure perf, but will put you in the ball park.

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michael78651

25 Jul 2015
10:41:46am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Color keys are worthless. Don't waste your money on them.

"So how on earth do you tell what shade of red, or correctly named color you are looking at?"



The best way to figure out colors, unless you have an eye for it, is to obtain stamps that come in only one color that were printed around the same time. Then compare the known color with what you have and see it they match.You can easily create a reference collection of colors. Best suggestion to keep it cheap to do this is to obtain damages, unused stamps. Just make sure that your "control" stamp doesn't come in shades. The catalog will let you know that.
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Bobstamp
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25 Jul 2015
11:26:27am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Cattywumpus asked how to check perforations. Here's a not-great video, but at least it's an introduction:

How to use a Perforation Gauge

The perf gauge shown in the video is inadequate for precise measurement. Much better are clear plastic ones offered by Unitrade and Stanley Gibbons. Both are capable of revealing much finer perf gradations. Their main drawback is that they are considerably more expensive than the metal one shown.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

A caution: You may find perforation gauges on-line that can be downloaded and printed. Don't bother. They will almost certainly provide inaccurate reading because even the best computer systems are not capable of perfectly replicating original images.

Bob

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michael78651

25 Jul 2015
11:48:02am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Here's a link from The American Philatelic Society web site on how to start a stamp collection. The topics there include how to identify stamps, what tools to use in the hobby, etc.

http://stamps.org/Starting-a-Collection

You do not need to be an APS member in order to view this page.

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cathotel

25 Jul 2015
01:26:40pm
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Paul, I would offer yet another consideration. While I cannot be certain of the perforation measurement of this block, I suspect it is perf. 11, with a colour of carmine-rose. This would suggest you likely have a block of #J61.

I at least would suggest that you determine the perforation factor before attempting to explore the issue of watermarks (I say this because I often have difficulty determining watermarking of US stamps, and if they are perf. 11 there is no need to consider watermarks).

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jimjung

26 Jul 2015
09:33:57am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I have been collecting for awhile but I know little about US stamps and ran into this same problem identifying the Postage Due shades. Here are a couple that I pulled out of an old collection based on shade I found on the web. I would appreciate any help to id these.

Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

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Cattywumpuss
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The odds are good, but the goods are odd.

28 Jul 2015
05:08:14pm
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Thanks for all the wonderful help and great suggestions guys. I had a look on Amazon for a color guide and did manage to find a "Scott Specialized Color Guide For US Stamps", but it was $55. A bit too pricey right now. Your color guide was interesting though Ningpo. Sort of confirmed I was in the right area at least.

I will definitely look in to the perforations more and will get myself a perf gauge as Bobstamp suggested. Looks like it is really handy little tool to have. Thanks for the suggested articles too. More reading and information for me to devour.

Hope you all have a great week,

Paul.

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smauggie
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28 Jul 2015
10:23:07pm
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Your best bet for a perf guage (and one I use exclusively) is the Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge.

http://www.slingshotvenus.com/stamps/USSpecialtyPerf5.html

Image Not Found

It is a real steal at only $16. It works well for world-wide stamps. It even has the Kasiulas guage built in that is needed for certain US, Canadian and other stamps.

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canalzonepostalhistory.wordpress.com
michael78651

29 Jul 2015
01:54:56am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

The Scott Specialized US Color Guide is very specialized and covers only eight 19th century stamps.

Again, you will not get the desired results from the other commercial multi-color guides. So, save your money.

Find unused stamps from your duplicate stamps that were printed in only one color. Those will be your best and free color guides.


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roy
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29 Jul 2015
08:10:57am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Also, minor colour variations (i.e. shades of "red", rather than "green vs. brown") should be the LAST thing you try to evaluate in identifying a stamp, after matching design, perforations, watermark, paper, in that order.

For all beginners, the best advice is to never assume you have the "scarce" colour variation until you have seen both the normal and a verified copy of the variety. I constantly get calls from people who tell me they have the expensive colour variety because they were attracted to the high catalogue price, and completely ignored the 25c listing for the common shade right above it.

Roy

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Cattywumpuss
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The odds are good, but the goods are odd.

29 Jul 2015
05:39:01pm
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Wow Smauggie! That Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge looks like it would do my taxes for me too if I left it alone with the paperwork. I must admit it does indeed seem like a bargain though. I had a look at a few other places online but did not have much luck, so maybe I'll order up one of those. Thanks for the suggestion,

Paul.

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phos45
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29 Jul 2015
08:14:53pm
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

try this free program .... color in hexadecimal at point of mouse ...

https://www.colorschemer.com/colorpix_info.php


(Modified by Moderator on 2015-07-29 20:57:12)

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michael78651

19 Apr 2023
10:51:15am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

bump

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BermudaSailor
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20 Apr 2023
09:07:39am

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re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!


I recently took part in a zoom call with Hugh Jefferies the editor of the Stanley Gibbons Catalog that was presented by the British Empire Study Group. There was a fairly lively discussion about color(s) on stamps. I subsequently posted the following question and received the adjacent responds from Mr. Jefferies:

"All of the comments regarding analytics to determine colors notwithstanding, how does the guy who wants to add any given color variation to their collection go about discerning which shade is which? It isn’t always worth while get a certificate. BTW more than one dealer has told me not to put too much faith in the Stanley Gibbons color key, which I tend to rely on."

Reply
wild1952

"6 days ago
I think the SG colour key is appropriate for their specialised catalogues at the time they were issued. That is, the earlier ones use the colour key issued at the time, and those colours still apply. Later colours have been added in later decades for later issues."

Granted Mr. Jefferies has catalogs to sell, but what's a guy supposed to do/believe?

By the way, you can watch this presentation on the BESG's YouTube channel.

David


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Benque

20 Apr 2023
12:08:19pm
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

But, but, but........can't your stamps identify as any color they want? Isn't that the rule which no one may question?

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abstractist

26 Apr 2023
04:11:48pm
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I read an article on why European countries use a U in a lot of their words, where in America we dropped the U.
We spell it color, they spell it colour.
The reason goes way back to when letter presse were used and people would pay by each letter used to post an advertisement in the paper.
No U meant less cost!

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

26 Apr 2023
04:34:30pm

Approvals
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I thought the American spelling was heavily influenced by Noah Webster who wanted to reform the way words were spelled, make them more consistent with their pronunciation, therefore color instead of colour.
As far as European countries are concerned, we play no part in how English is spelled. After all, it is not our language, so we leave that to the British. Big Grin

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angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

27 Apr 2023
06:22:03am
re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I also attended the BESG zoom call and found Hugh Jeffries as very unpretentious given he is asked to explain the many years of cataloging by Gibbons. He knows things could have been done better but any attempt to correct them would lead to more collector angst.

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Cattywumpuss

The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
24 Jul 2015
11:56:29pm

Hello again fellow stamp fiends. I have another puzzling situation which I am sure somebody in here can help me with. I was continuing to sort through my collection tonight when I came across a lovely example of some US 1 Cent Postage Due stamps.

I consulted my Scott US Pocket Stamp Catalog and the US 1 Cent Postage Due are listed in the back with the special stamps. I started to get excited that I had indeed identified the stamp correctly and even found a picture of the same stamp (or a very similar looking one)I had in my hand. However, this is where things get confusing for me. After reading on I was left feeling that unless I had a degree in color recognition the catalog was not really doing me much good.

To me, the stamps I had in my hand were red. However, according to Scott, they might be vermilion from 1894 (Scott J29, don't I wish!), or deep claret from 1895 (Scott J38), or possibly deep claret from 1910-12 (Scott J45), or rose carmine from 1910-12 (Scott J45a), or for all I know even dull rose from 1914-15 (Scott J52a).

So how on earth do you tell what shade of red, or correctly named color you are looking at? Sad I realize that identifying the proper color and age can make rather a difference in value. My Pocket Catalog says an unused J29 is worth $2,250.00 and an unused J38 is worth $13.50. I am hoping somebody here can offer some help or advice.

Here is a picture of the stamps I found in my collection:

Image Not Found

and here is what the back looks like:

Image Not Found

All four are joined together.

Once again I appreciate any input you folks may have. Thanks, and hope you all have a wonderful weekend,

Paul.



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"It was like this when I found it, I swear!"
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smauggie

25 Jul 2015
01:18:56am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

How do the perfs gauge out?

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canalzonepostalhisto ...
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Cattywumpuss

The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
25 Jul 2015
01:26:52am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I have absolutely no idea what you mean?!?! Big Grin

I'm pretty new to stamp collecting Smauggie. Still got a lot to learn.

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"It was like this when I found it, I swear!"
cocollectibles

25 Jul 2015
06:49:14am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

This older post might help.

SOR discussion post on postage due stamp colors

Peter

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"TO ERR IS HUMAN; TO FORGIVE, CANINE."
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Ningpo

25 Jul 2015
08:39:24am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Paul

Although I don't have a Scott Colour Key, below is a scan of the colours you mentioned as shown on the Stanley Gibbons Colour Key.This should only be used as a general guide, as colour definitions can vary.


Image Not Found


Ideally, stamp colours should be compared directly with the actual colour key (not a PC screen), in a North light without sunshine.

Bear in mind that these are SOLID swatches of colour whereas lines of shading give a lighter appearance.

Anyway, based on what I can see, I think you can eliminate vermilion and dull rose. That leaves you with deep claret or rose-carmine. Perhaps rose-carmine is closest.

Just remember, comparing colours on a PC monitor is not an accurate way to do it.



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mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
25 Jul 2015
09:16:41am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Just counting the perf holes from the scan, I would make a wild guess that the stamps are perf 12. In my humble opinion, the next best thing to do would be to check for watermark. That might help narrow down the choice of color.

Just my 2 cents.

Mel

EDIT:

Believe I have to agree with cathotel. When I counted the perfs the first time, I did so from the back and counted the vertical row as the horizontal row. The scan had been turned.Blushing and yes I know, counting perf holes is not the way to measure perf, but will put you in the ball park.

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michael78651

25 Jul 2015
10:41:46am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Color keys are worthless. Don't waste your money on them.

"So how on earth do you tell what shade of red, or correctly named color you are looking at?"



The best way to figure out colors, unless you have an eye for it, is to obtain stamps that come in only one color that were printed around the same time. Then compare the known color with what you have and see it they match.You can easily create a reference collection of colors. Best suggestion to keep it cheap to do this is to obtain damages, unused stamps. Just make sure that your "control" stamp doesn't come in shades. The catalog will let you know that.
Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Bobstamp

25 Jul 2015
11:26:27am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Cattywumpus asked how to check perforations. Here's a not-great video, but at least it's an introduction:

How to use a Perforation Gauge

The perf gauge shown in the video is inadequate for precise measurement. Much better are clear plastic ones offered by Unitrade and Stanley Gibbons. Both are capable of revealing much finer perf gradations. Their main drawback is that they are considerably more expensive than the metal one shown.

Image Not Found Image Not Found

A caution: You may find perforation gauges on-line that can be downloaded and printed. Don't bother. They will almost certainly provide inaccurate reading because even the best computer systems are not capable of perfectly replicating original images.

Bob

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michael78651

25 Jul 2015
11:48:02am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Here's a link from The American Philatelic Society web site on how to start a stamp collection. The topics there include how to identify stamps, what tools to use in the hobby, etc.

http://stamps.org/Starting-a-Collection

You do not need to be an APS member in order to view this page.

Like
Login to Like
this post
cathotel

25 Jul 2015
01:26:40pm

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Paul, I would offer yet another consideration. While I cannot be certain of the perforation measurement of this block, I suspect it is perf. 11, with a colour of carmine-rose. This would suggest you likely have a block of #J61.

I at least would suggest that you determine the perforation factor before attempting to explore the issue of watermarks (I say this because I often have difficulty determining watermarking of US stamps, and if they are perf. 11 there is no need to consider watermarks).

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jimjung

26 Jul 2015
09:33:57am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I have been collecting for awhile but I know little about US stamps and ran into this same problem identifying the Postage Due shades. Here are a couple that I pulled out of an old collection based on shade I found on the web. I would appreciate any help to id these.

Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

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Cattywumpuss

The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
28 Jul 2015
05:08:14pm

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Thanks for all the wonderful help and great suggestions guys. I had a look on Amazon for a color guide and did manage to find a "Scott Specialized Color Guide For US Stamps", but it was $55. A bit too pricey right now. Your color guide was interesting though Ningpo. Sort of confirmed I was in the right area at least.

I will definitely look in to the perforations more and will get myself a perf gauge as Bobstamp suggested. Looks like it is really handy little tool to have. Thanks for the suggested articles too. More reading and information for me to devour.

Hope you all have a great week,

Paul.

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smauggie

28 Jul 2015
10:23:07pm

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Your best bet for a perf guage (and one I use exclusively) is the Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge.

http://www.slingshotvenus.com/stamps/USSpecialtyPerf5.html

Image Not Found

It is a real steal at only $16. It works well for world-wide stamps. It even has the Kasiulas guage built in that is needed for certain US, Canadian and other stamps.

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canalzonepostalhisto ...
michael78651

29 Jul 2015
01:54:56am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

The Scott Specialized US Color Guide is very specialized and covers only eight 19th century stamps.

Again, you will not get the desired results from the other commercial multi-color guides. So, save your money.

Find unused stamps from your duplicate stamps that were printed in only one color. Those will be your best and free color guides.


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Login to Like
this post

BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
29 Jul 2015
08:10:57am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Also, minor colour variations (i.e. shades of "red", rather than "green vs. brown") should be the LAST thing you try to evaluate in identifying a stamp, after matching design, perforations, watermark, paper, in that order.

For all beginners, the best advice is to never assume you have the "scarce" colour variation until you have seen both the normal and a verified copy of the variety. I constantly get calls from people who tell me they have the expensive colour variety because they were attracted to the high catalogue price, and completely ignored the 25c listing for the common shade right above it.

Roy

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Cattywumpuss

The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
29 Jul 2015
05:39:01pm

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

Wow Smauggie! That Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge looks like it would do my taxes for me too if I left it alone with the paperwork. I must admit it does indeed seem like a bargain though. I had a look at a few other places online but did not have much luck, so maybe I'll order up one of those. Thanks for the suggestion,

Paul.

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phos45

29 Jul 2015
08:14:53pm

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

try this free program .... color in hexadecimal at point of mouse ...

https://www.colorschemer.com/colorpix_info.php


(Modified by Moderator on 2015-07-29 20:57:12)

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michael78651

19 Apr 2023
10:51:15am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

bump

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BermudaSailor

20 Apr 2023
09:07:39am

Auctions

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!


I recently took part in a zoom call with Hugh Jefferies the editor of the Stanley Gibbons Catalog that was presented by the British Empire Study Group. There was a fairly lively discussion about color(s) on stamps. I subsequently posted the following question and received the adjacent responds from Mr. Jefferies:

"All of the comments regarding analytics to determine colors notwithstanding, how does the guy who wants to add any given color variation to their collection go about discerning which shade is which? It isn’t always worth while get a certificate. BTW more than one dealer has told me not to put too much faith in the Stanley Gibbons color key, which I tend to rely on."

Reply
wild1952

"6 days ago
I think the SG colour key is appropriate for their specialised catalogues at the time they were issued. That is, the earlier ones use the colour key issued at the time, and those colours still apply. Later colours have been added in later decades for later issues."

Granted Mr. Jefferies has catalogs to sell, but what's a guy supposed to do/believe?

By the way, you can watch this presentation on the BESG's YouTube channel.

David


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Benque

20 Apr 2023
12:08:19pm

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

But, but, but........can't your stamps identify as any color they want? Isn't that the rule which no one may question?

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abstractist

26 Apr 2023
04:11:48pm

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I read an article on why European countries use a U in a lot of their words, where in America we dropped the U.
We spell it color, they spell it colour.
The reason goes way back to when letter presse were used and people would pay by each letter used to post an advertisement in the paper.
No U meant less cost!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
26 Apr 2023
04:34:30pm

Approvals

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I thought the American spelling was heavily influenced by Noah Webster who wanted to reform the way words were spelled, make them more consistent with their pronunciation, therefore color instead of colour.
As far as European countries are concerned, we play no part in how English is spelled. After all, it is not our language, so we leave that to the British. Big Grin

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angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
27 Apr 2023
06:22:03am

re: Color (Or Colour) Makes All The Difference!

I also attended the BESG zoom call and found Hugh Jeffries as very unpretentious given he is asked to explain the many years of cataloging by Gibbons. He knows things could have been done better but any attempt to correct them would lead to more collector angst.

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Login to Like
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