Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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09:50:04am
What you are describing is called collusion, and if it occurs in the corporate world, is illegal. I seem to recall some brouhaha a few years ago regarding a large stamp entity prosecuted for a form of collusion (maybe an auction firm?). Perhaps someone else will have a better recollection than I.
That being said, the evidence you present is far from damning, and you should really take care before making accusations - not that you are accusing, merely raising the issue.
Bobby
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8 major dealers and auction houses were embroiled in an auction scheme in which they agreed to not bid against one another on certain items, then split the contents and costs. i don't remember the criminal aspects; most left APS; most are still in business as dealers.
I had dealings with several of them. I don't believe any of those 8 are among David's 3.
David
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Interesting. I too have purchased from all three of those and have been quite happy with the purchases and the prices.
The thing that caught my eye for all three is the lack of general description offered. Sure there are lots of pictures, but a general description that goes beyond the auction title would be nice (e.g., "This lot consists to two binders and some loose pages.").
The stock phrase that Noble Spirit uses is not helpful at all: "An area that is highly sought after by collectors, specialists and investors alike. You are likely to find just about anything in here! You owe it to yourself to make absolutely certain you view all the photos."
Then there is the mangled-English CK Stamps phrase: "Please bidding based on what is shown..."
And Noble Spirit's Thesaurus-like auction titles: "Powerful," "Excellent," "Desirable," "Valuable," etc.. I've always wondered if there is a pecking order to those terms. Should I bid more on a lot that is "excellent" or one that is "powerful"? 
I do get a periodic email from Noble Spirit, and their company has been featured in the their local press as a small business success story.
Sorry, I drifted a bit from the original "collusion" topic... 
Unfortunately, eBay has made it harder over the years to figure out who is buying what. Back in the late '90s I could search for what other people were bidding on. So if I found someone with similar interests, a search by his user ID would help me find things I might not have found otherwise.
-Steve
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I sold on ebates and was contacted by another dealer asking if I'd be interested in doing a little shill bidding, he'd bump my auctions if I would do the same for him. I reported him to
ebates and they did NOTHING, just a heads up. His scheme was to list an item at a low open
and then I was to put a high opening bid so other bidders would try to out bid my opening
bid, I left ebates in disgust. Just be careful over there !
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All three of these sellers a do high volume of sales, and as mentioned they rush their listing. A lot of other dealers do this too. Some have all the info pertinent to that specific lot in the title, and the body text is just boilerplate.
I don't believe there is any collusion, it seems their method of operation is to start things at a penny and let 'em fly. There are bargains to be had, but they are working on the average of their sales. It seems they buy large volumes of stuff, and just blow it out.
One thing I've noticed is that when I look at their collection lots, there are a lot of stamps in the albums, but they've cherry picked the high value stamps. Those are the ones they list one at a time!
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"And there are many who feel that the rationale, "I am a high volume seller and can't take time to provide clear front + back images or describe all faults in writing," is disingenuous or bad for the hobby."
Indeed. And many other shenanigans as well.
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I believe a lot of their stuff does sell for pennies on the dollar because of the doubt they cast by not describing / photographing their stamps well. I do notice that they offer up a lot of space fillers... badly centered, heavily postmarked copies of more valuable stamps.
The other night I was interested in a cover lot that Noble Spirit had listed. It was a big jumble of town postmarks and such from different eras. The kind of lot I'd buy to sort through for my NJ postmark collection. It was at $6 with an $18 postage charge. I went back for another look and I realized these were probably cut squares, looked to be 4x6 squares with partial addresses on the bottom cuts. Never mentioned, just covers... postmarks... and that it was an excellent addition to my investment portfolio!
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I have never won any of my Auction bids from these three. Given that I win often elsewhere, that my bids, while low, were not totally unreasonable, and that I often travel on Auctions in areas of relatively lesser interest (less people bidding), I am inclined to believe that there is something else that goes on, that prevents any sale below a certain level from occurring. This is just my unsubstantiated opinion, and I now only bid at the last second, with one bid, which is at my maximum.
I still have never won anything from them. Not sure why?
rrr..
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Hi everyone;
They could be just one company with many different accounts....
that would allow them to get away with more crap....
TuskenRaider
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Many people have more than one account on Ebay, some use different buying and selling accounts, some sell different things on different accounts (covers on one, stamps on another), etc. Nothing illegal or unethical about it.
In order to shill bid on what is legally their own items I believe they would need to register on Ebay using a different address (could be as simple as 612 and 612A) and use different computers / IP addresses.
Ebay used to actively seek out anything that even resembled shill bidding (I used to buy a lot of material from one seller and was questioned as to whether I actually paid for the items - I sent them copies of the cancelled checks). They no longer seem interested in pursuing either shill bidding or fakes and forgeries (why there is no longer a useful discussion group on Ebay - it had to be moved).
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The old eBay is that kind of site where lots are "as is" and it's a Garage sale type of place which is why these 3 sellers are successful. In the Modern eBay, where there are Professional Sellers such as Stanley Gibbons and other major Stamp Dealers, this may not be the case.
But these 3 are from the old eBay and there are lots of buyers out there looking for this style of purchase. I've never bought much from these sellers but I like to hunt for treasures myself.
All of the little tricks they use to increase their sales are qualities of this type of selling. It's not an exact science you're buying here. I always have to factor in the fakes, forgeries and shills if I intend to bid.
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"The old eBay is that kind of site where lots are "as is" and it's a Garage sale type of place which is why these 3 sellers are successful. In the Modern eBay, where there are Professional Sellers such as Stanley Gibbons and other major Stamp Dealers, this may not be the case."
There are many "Professional Sellers" and "major Stamp Dealers" on the "Modern Ebay" who sell a lot of highly questionable material, with and without certificates.
There is at least one stamp forum that specializes in exposing Ebay fakes and forgeries, most stamp forums have threads on the subject. I personally never buy items for real money unless I am 99 per cent certain they are OK, that limits my substantial purchases to a relatively small group of items within my comfort level.
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Hi Everyone;
@ Webpaper;
I did not say it was illegal or unethical to have multiple accounts.
"
that would allow them to get away with more crap...."
In other words it is easier if you have many accounts to cheat, than if you only have one account....
TuskenRaider
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I have purchased collections from all three of these sellers in the past. Every time I won I got a great deal (because I only bid at "good deal" prices). CKStamps and NY Stamps I get the best deals from, but for the latter especially, I write-off any very high value items as fillers (sometimes forgeries) in my bid estimate unless I can specifically see the item is sound and genuine. Noble Spirit seems harder to find a bargain with, so because I am cheap when it comes to buying collections on Ebay, I rarely win. I've wondered why Noble Spirit auctions sell at higher prices than the others.
I have seen no evidence of collusion, but I wouldn't be surprised if they watch their competition and pick up collections at a bargain and resell them if they see something grossly undervalued. Noble Spirit, if it can sell at higher prices points, maybe could purchase from NY Stamps and resell for a profit. That's total speculation of course.
Collusion or not, the way to protect yourself is to:
1. Estimate the value of the collection.
(a)Anything that looks too good to be true, forgery or high-value damaged item, either don't value or value at 5-10%
(b) Estimate rough CV of everything else
(2) Determine max amount willing to pay, say X% of 1b plus 1a, where X% is the percentage of CV you are willing to pay, taking into account the seller, the overall condition of the collection, etc.
(3) DO NOT let your bid exceed the estimate arrived at in step 2
(4) DO NOT place a bid until the last 5 seconds of the auction
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08:19:12pm
" .... (4) DO NOT place a bid until the last 5 seconds of the auction ...
That is what made it fun.
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I don't know when ebay started doing this, but it sure looks suspicious to hide the bidders id.
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As the bidders identity is already a code. Why would they need to introduce this totally hidden private bidder identity.
But then if the seller as one of the shill bidders is the highest bidder,surely they will still have to pay the final value fee.
Unless they then email the next highest legitimate bidder with a second chance offer making up an excuse about the highest bidder backing out.
Brian
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07:06:13am
" .... Unless they then email the next highest legitimate bidder with a second chance offer making up an excuse about the highest bidder backing out. ...."
I'd put nothing beyond the realm of possibility on eBay.
Probably they have gotten tired of policing shills so they decided to conceal the bidders.
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private bidders on ebay stink like skunks
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"I don't know when ebay started doing this, but it sure looks suspicious to hide the bidders id."
I have notced that when a dealer sells on another than the US Ebay the same material, the 'other country' seller will be identified as 'Private seller' on the Us Ebay.
Jopie
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I sold stamps on Ebay for 15 years but gave up a few years ago. Ebays' way to many backhanded policy changes have taken it light years from the friendly community garage sale it use to be. I was a main contributor to the old Ebay stamp chat board for many years and even President of the Ebay Users Stamp Club (550 members strong at one point). We discussed every possible problem relating to stamp sales and sellers over and over again.
When Ebay basically pulled the plug on the main board everything went away and there was no group left trying to keep the place honest. Not that ebay ever listened to us but we had a lot of readers who could find out what was going on.
I have never bought from either of the big 3. However, recently I have thought it might be a good idea to have them sell my stuff for me.
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Any stamp collector that peruses the stamp catogories on ebay has come across the 3 big sellers- Noble Spirit, NY stamps and CK stamps. I generally look at the country collections. I'm picky in what I bid on and tend to lowball any bids I submit and the few auctions I win are usually well worth the money. Some auctions I closely lose out on, let's say from seller #1, as little as a week later I see listed on seller #2- picture for picture. This happens frequently. Now I know any dealer can buy from another dealer at auction but are they colluding to a certain price point to get what they want out of the auction- especially if it is not a consigment auction but something they bought from a collector and are selling for their own profit? Two of the 3 big guys are from Flushing NY while the 3rd is from New Hampshire- close proximity. Also the automated positive feedback from seller 1 & 2 are exactly the same- word for word and even the same number of +'s after the A. I have suspected this for quite some time and this may be completely above-board but something smells fishy here!!
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
24 Jul 2015
09:50:04am
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
What you are describing is called collusion, and if it occurs in the corporate world, is illegal. I seem to recall some brouhaha a few years ago regarding a large stamp entity prosecuted for a form of collusion (maybe an auction firm?). Perhaps someone else will have a better recollection than I.
That being said, the evidence you present is far from damning, and you should really take care before making accusations - not that you are accusing, merely raising the issue.
Bobby
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
8 major dealers and auction houses were embroiled in an auction scheme in which they agreed to not bid against one another on certain items, then split the contents and costs. i don't remember the criminal aspects; most left APS; most are still in business as dealers.
I had dealings with several of them. I don't believe any of those 8 are among David's 3.
David
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
Interesting. I too have purchased from all three of those and have been quite happy with the purchases and the prices.
The thing that caught my eye for all three is the lack of general description offered. Sure there are lots of pictures, but a general description that goes beyond the auction title would be nice (e.g., "This lot consists to two binders and some loose pages.").
The stock phrase that Noble Spirit uses is not helpful at all: "An area that is highly sought after by collectors, specialists and investors alike. You are likely to find just about anything in here! You owe it to yourself to make absolutely certain you view all the photos."
Then there is the mangled-English CK Stamps phrase: "Please bidding based on what is shown..."
And Noble Spirit's Thesaurus-like auction titles: "Powerful," "Excellent," "Desirable," "Valuable," etc.. I've always wondered if there is a pecking order to those terms. Should I bid more on a lot that is "excellent" or one that is "powerful"?
I do get a periodic email from Noble Spirit, and their company has been featured in the their local press as a small business success story.
Sorry, I drifted a bit from the original "collusion" topic...
Unfortunately, eBay has made it harder over the years to figure out who is buying what. Back in the late '90s I could search for what other people were bidding on. So if I found someone with similar interests, a search by his user ID would help me find things I might not have found otherwise.
-Steve
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this post
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
I sold on ebates and was contacted by another dealer asking if I'd be interested in doing a little shill bidding, he'd bump my auctions if I would do the same for him. I reported him to
ebates and they did NOTHING, just a heads up. His scheme was to list an item at a low open
and then I was to put a high opening bid so other bidders would try to out bid my opening
bid, I left ebates in disgust. Just be careful over there !
Login to Like
this post
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
All three of these sellers a do high volume of sales, and as mentioned they rush their listing. A lot of other dealers do this too. Some have all the info pertinent to that specific lot in the title, and the body text is just boilerplate.
I don't believe there is any collusion, it seems their method of operation is to start things at a penny and let 'em fly. There are bargains to be had, but they are working on the average of their sales. It seems they buy large volumes of stuff, and just blow it out.
One thing I've noticed is that when I look at their collection lots, there are a lot of stamps in the albums, but they've cherry picked the high value stamps. Those are the ones they list one at a time!
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this post
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
"And there are many who feel that the rationale, "I am a high volume seller and can't take time to provide clear front + back images or describe all faults in writing," is disingenuous or bad for the hobby."
Indeed. And many other shenanigans as well.
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
I believe a lot of their stuff does sell for pennies on the dollar because of the doubt they cast by not describing / photographing their stamps well. I do notice that they offer up a lot of space fillers... badly centered, heavily postmarked copies of more valuable stamps.
The other night I was interested in a cover lot that Noble Spirit had listed. It was a big jumble of town postmarks and such from different eras. The kind of lot I'd buy to sort through for my NJ postmark collection. It was at $6 with an $18 postage charge. I went back for another look and I realized these were probably cut squares, looked to be 4x6 squares with partial addresses on the bottom cuts. Never mentioned, just covers... postmarks... and that it was an excellent addition to my investment portfolio!
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
I have never won any of my Auction bids from these three. Given that I win often elsewhere, that my bids, while low, were not totally unreasonable, and that I often travel on Auctions in areas of relatively lesser interest (less people bidding), I am inclined to believe that there is something else that goes on, that prevents any sale below a certain level from occurring. This is just my unsubstantiated opinion, and I now only bid at the last second, with one bid, which is at my maximum.
I still have never won anything from them. Not sure why?
rrr..
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
Hi everyone;
They could be just one company with many different accounts....
that would allow them to get away with more crap....
TuskenRaider
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11:55:48am
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
Many people have more than one account on Ebay, some use different buying and selling accounts, some sell different things on different accounts (covers on one, stamps on another), etc. Nothing illegal or unethical about it.
In order to shill bid on what is legally their own items I believe they would need to register on Ebay using a different address (could be as simple as 612 and 612A) and use different computers / IP addresses.
Ebay used to actively seek out anything that even resembled shill bidding (I used to buy a lot of material from one seller and was questioned as to whether I actually paid for the items - I sent them copies of the cancelled checks). They no longer seem interested in pursuing either shill bidding or fakes and forgeries (why there is no longer a useful discussion group on Ebay - it had to be moved).
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08:48:27am
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
The old eBay is that kind of site where lots are "as is" and it's a Garage sale type of place which is why these 3 sellers are successful. In the Modern eBay, where there are Professional Sellers such as Stanley Gibbons and other major Stamp Dealers, this may not be the case.
But these 3 are from the old eBay and there are lots of buyers out there looking for this style of purchase. I've never bought much from these sellers but I like to hunt for treasures myself.
All of the little tricks they use to increase their sales are qualities of this type of selling. It's not an exact science you're buying here. I always have to factor in the fakes, forgeries and shills if I intend to bid.
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01:24:43pm
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
"The old eBay is that kind of site where lots are "as is" and it's a Garage sale type of place which is why these 3 sellers are successful. In the Modern eBay, where there are Professional Sellers such as Stanley Gibbons and other major Stamp Dealers, this may not be the case."
There are many "Professional Sellers" and "major Stamp Dealers" on the "Modern Ebay" who sell a lot of highly questionable material, with and without certificates.
There is at least one stamp forum that specializes in exposing Ebay fakes and forgeries, most stamp forums have threads on the subject. I personally never buy items for real money unless I am 99 per cent certain they are OK, that limits my substantial purchases to a relatively small group of items within my comfort level.
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
Hi Everyone;
@ Webpaper;
I did not say it was illegal or unethical to have multiple accounts.
"
that would allow them to get away with more crap...."
In other words it is easier if you have many accounts to cheat, than if you only have one account....
TuskenRaider
Login to Like
this post
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
I have purchased collections from all three of these sellers in the past. Every time I won I got a great deal (because I only bid at "good deal" prices). CKStamps and NY Stamps I get the best deals from, but for the latter especially, I write-off any very high value items as fillers (sometimes forgeries) in my bid estimate unless I can specifically see the item is sound and genuine. Noble Spirit seems harder to find a bargain with, so because I am cheap when it comes to buying collections on Ebay, I rarely win. I've wondered why Noble Spirit auctions sell at higher prices than the others.
I have seen no evidence of collusion, but I wouldn't be surprised if they watch their competition and pick up collections at a bargain and resell them if they see something grossly undervalued. Noble Spirit, if it can sell at higher prices points, maybe could purchase from NY Stamps and resell for a profit. That's total speculation of course.
Collusion or not, the way to protect yourself is to:
1. Estimate the value of the collection.
(a)Anything that looks too good to be true, forgery or high-value damaged item, either don't value or value at 5-10%
(b) Estimate rough CV of everything else
(2) Determine max amount willing to pay, say X% of 1b plus 1a, where X% is the percentage of CV you are willing to pay, taking into account the seller, the overall condition of the collection, etc.
(3) DO NOT let your bid exceed the estimate arrived at in step 2
(4) DO NOT place a bid until the last 5 seconds of the auction
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
07 Aug 2015
08:19:12pm
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
" .... (4) DO NOT place a bid until the last 5 seconds of the auction ...
That is what made it fun.
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
I don't know when ebay started doing this, but it sure looks suspicious to hide the bidders id.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
As the bidders identity is already a code. Why would they need to introduce this totally hidden private bidder identity.
But then if the seller as one of the shill bidders is the highest bidder,surely they will still have to pay the final value fee.
Unless they then email the next highest legitimate bidder with a second chance offer making up an excuse about the highest bidder backing out.
Brian
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
23 Sep 2015
07:06:13am
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
" .... Unless they then email the next highest legitimate bidder with a second chance offer making up an excuse about the highest bidder backing out. ...."
I'd put nothing beyond the realm of possibility on eBay.
Probably they have gotten tired of policing shills so they decided to conceal the bidders.
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05:26:02pm
re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
private bidders on ebay stink like skunks
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
"I don't know when ebay started doing this, but it sure looks suspicious to hide the bidders id."
I have notced that when a dealer sells on another than the US Ebay the same material, the 'other country' seller will be identified as 'Private seller' on the Us Ebay.
Jopie
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re: EBAY Seller Collusion or Maybe Not
I sold stamps on Ebay for 15 years but gave up a few years ago. Ebays' way to many backhanded policy changes have taken it light years from the friendly community garage sale it use to be. I was a main contributor to the old Ebay stamp chat board for many years and even President of the Ebay Users Stamp Club (550 members strong at one point). We discussed every possible problem relating to stamp sales and sellers over and over again.
When Ebay basically pulled the plug on the main board everything went away and there was no group left trying to keep the place honest. Not that ebay ever listened to us but we had a lot of readers who could find out what was going on.
I have never bought from either of the big 3. However, recently I have thought it might be a good idea to have them sell my stuff for me.
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