Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
And here is the other one:
Any help / information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, and have a great evening,
Paul.
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First day covers will be canceled on the date of issue. On most modern US covers, the words "FIRST DAY" will usually be part of the official first day cancel.
Regardless of whether it says First Day or not, your covers were not canceled on the first day of issue for those stamps. Your covers have pictorial cancels, which happen to commemorate an event. Your covers did not go through the mailstream, and some collectors will refer to them as event covers. But I usually won't call them that unless they have a special cachet -- in other words, I expect the cover to commemorate the event (not just the cancel).
The top cover commemorates President Reagan's visit to his boyhood home of Dixon, IL.
I'm not familiar with the event (Sandwich Fair) commemorated in the bottom cover, other than what it says on the pictorial cancel.
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Thank you for the education KHJ. I have some true First Day covers in my collection and I realized that these two "commemoratives" were not quite the same. Hence my question about what the are exactly.
Do people collect these "event covers" or "commemorative covers" at all, or are they more or less worthless? Thanks,
Paul.
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People do collect them, but like stamps, the majority of them do not retail for more than the original face value of the stamp. The value is in the history/event it commemorates.
Of course, there are general exceptions, such as Space Covers. As with stamps, you have to know the market in order to know which ones are premium items.
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"On most modern US covers, the words "FIRST DAY" will usually be part of the official first day cancel."
As you said "on most". Sometimes the first day ceremony is held at a philatelic event so there can be pictorial cancels that are indeed first day covers. You can also find covers with town cancels that are "unofficial" first day covers, meaning that they are towns that were not the official first day city, but someone transported covers there on that same day for cancellation.
I don't know if thats popular today but it was way back. I did a lot of that back when I was servicing covers in the 1970s. For instance a stamp with an American flag on it was issued at a show in New York City. I got the official "First Day of Issue" cancels, both machine and hand cancel, and the show cancel. Then I got some related unofficial cancels by driving first to Union City, NJ and Liberty Corners, NJ. Collectors loved that. I also tried to get as many town cancels as I could on other issues. So it's always good to check the catalog for the first day when you have a cover in question.
Pictorial cancels like shown by OP are collected a few ways. First they're a nice souvenir of the day or event so non-collectors will save them. People do include them in topical collections, such as cancels related to Lindberg or ones picturing a car. I have a NJ state postmark collection and I've been including special cancels that I already own. I wouldn't be going out of my way to pay money for them though. And as said, those covers go for a few cents to a dollar or so.
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For the most part, event covers are a genial fundraising device.
They are something of a souvenir, targeted towards people who attend an event, or towards members (and other folks) supporting the sponsoring organization.
As KHJ points-out, they usually feature a cachet.
Your 'Sandwich IL Fair Station' is a slogan cancel applied at a temporary post office (sub-station) operating at that event.
The 'STA' at the bottom of your 'Dixon IL President Visits Home Town' suggests that this slogan cancel was only in use at a sub-station on the day of the visit:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19840206&id=8a4SAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hPkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5561,864908&hl=en
Slogan cancels for some events (eg World's Fairs) have been used on much of the mail for that city/region for a much longer period of time.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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02:46:06am
" .... Do people collect these "event covers" or "commemorative covers" at all, or are they more or less worthless? ...."
First, Paul, people collect all kinds of things, so somewhere there may well be someone just sitting quietly at a desk poring through piles of covers looking for some aspect of collecting that one or the other of your items would illustrate.
The problem that affects value is how many "somebodies" there are, where they dwell and how to connect with them.
Over the years I've seen posts by, or sites of, collectors who study some single issue, some seemingly insignificant classification of stamps or covers, some person, place or event, so many that I am almost certain someone is interested in some facet of those issues, or cancellations.
In fact, knowing that, I have a closet full of what is essentially, to me, junk, but I know that someday, should I live long enough, I will come across someone who will be thrilled, well, ....perhaps just a little, to acquire what I simply can't throw away.
So the difference between "worthless" or treasured totem is a matter of subjectivity and the size of my closet.
When I do "close my album" for the last time my children may well have one hell of a bonfire.
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Paul:
All those event covers do have some interest to people, especially topical collectors. Some covers honour balloon festivals, opening days for sports events, etc.
As an example, the first cover honours President Ronald Reagan visiting his hometown of Dixon, IL. That is the sort of thing that I would have in my Ronald Reagan topical collection.
Yes, there are people who collect items like that.
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
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"Slogan cancels for some events (eg World's Fairs) have been used on much of the mail for that city/region for a much longer period of time."
Here's two examples of early fair slogan cancels.
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Once again the wealth of knowledge that folks here are willing to share is amazing. Thank you all for the education. I have another interesting cover / commemorative I need some help with, but I just need to get the pictures organized first. Hope you all have a great day, and thanks for the help,
Paul.
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So I have now come across another interesting item in my collection. It does not quite appear to be a "First Day Cover", I could not find a FDC cancellation mark, so I am thinking it is probably a commemorative of some type.
The interesting thing, is that it seems to have 2 cancellation marks on it, from the same day in different cities. Here is a picture of the address side of the envelope:
It seems to be commemorating the "Jet Air Mail Service" that possibly connected the three cities of Pittsburgh, Chicago and Los Angeles in the 1950s. Although my dates might be off. Here is a close up of the "Jet Air Mail Service" stamp:
And then a close up of the Pittsburgh cancellation:
And it seems to be mailed to somebody in Pittsburgh. Close up of address below:
Now here is where I get perplexed. The other side of the envelope seems to be commemorating the bicentenary of Pittsburgh. See image below:
And here is a close up of the commemoration message:
Now there is another cancellation on this side of the envelope that seems to bear the same date, July 25th, as the cancellation on the address side of the envelope:
Except this cancellation seems to be from Chicago, IL. Was this envelope cancelled in 2 cities in one day? Does this type of envelope / cancellation / commemorative have a special name? Once again, any information anybody can provide would be greatly appreciated and quickly absorbed. Thanks, and hope you all have a great day,
Paul.
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Paul:
The first cover pictured is a FFC - First flight Cover.
The last postmark shown is called a Barrel Postmark. Canada and the United States used barrel postmarks.
Another item... AMF in the postmark stands for Air Mail Facility.
Hope this helps!
David
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It is a flight cover, yes philatelic in nature. It was requested by someone for the Pittsburgh lady, it wasn't sent to Chicago in error, it went on that commemorative flight. It's customary to give this type of cover a receiving postmark to prove it was flown. I'm questioning why it didn't have a Los Angelos cancel since the cachet states it should've continued on. Only once it was serviced would it be released in normal mail to the addressee
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I found it all confusing as I assume it went to Chicago after Pittsburgh, but then it had a Pittsburgh mailing address on the front so it seemed strange to start in Pittsburgh, go to Chicago and then return to Pittsburgh.
Some other commemorative / first day covers I got in the same group also have this Pittsburgh address on, so I assume that was the ultimate delivery destination for the envelope.
Maybe it was received early in the morning in Pittsburgh and then somebody with the Jet Air Mail Service flew to Chicago the same morning, had it stamped at the Air Mail Facility there, then brought it back to Pittsburgh later on?
Fascinating trying to figure it out. Thanks,
Paul.
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03:07:44am
" ....
Maybe it was received early in the morning in Pittsburgh and then somebody with the Jet Air Mail Service flew to Chicago the same morning, had it stamped at the Air Mail Facility there, then brought it back to Pittsburgh later on? ...."
That is a good possibility, Paul. It also might be a good idea to keep in mind that not every piece of mail handled by the postal service actually proceeds logically from mailing point to delivery.
Also for may years it has been an open secret that on occasion, anticipating a busy day a postmark may be physically applied earlier with the ceremonial date, or discovering that the clerks were swamped with courtesy requests, a backdated cancellation is applied.
Now usually regular mail has properly dated cancellations, but for First Day of issue and first flight covers, a cover might just have been prepared the day before in anticipation of an early flight.
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"not every piece of mail handled by the postal service actually proceeds logically from mailing point to delivery."
An Irish example:I live at nr.19.If I was to post a letter to Nr.20,next door I would put it in the Post Box.It would be collected and taken to the local Post Office.They would sort it and then send it to Co.Cork ( about a 100 miles from here !)They would sort it again and return it to the local Post office,and then 2 days later it would be delivered next door.When I asked a Post Office employee why this was done I was informed that it was more efficient ?????
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Oh so true, the mail does not always follow a logical route. I just got a letter back in the mail yesterday, July 16th. It was a regular first class envelope, mailed to a person across town a mile or two away from where I am. The letter was marked "Unable to deliver, unable to forward, return to sender". Strange thing was, the envelope had "Seasons Greetings" written on the top of it because I had mailed it out on December 23rd, 2014! Where it had been for the last 6+ months is anybody's guess. Nice of the postal service to eventually return it though I guess. 
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Here's a typical first Day Cancel on a Postcard
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Hello all. Just been going through my collection again and I came across these examples. I was wondering if hey are first day covers or not? Pictures below:
And here is the other one:
Any help / information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, and have a great evening,
Paul.
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re: Are These First Day Covers?
First day covers will be canceled on the date of issue. On most modern US covers, the words "FIRST DAY" will usually be part of the official first day cancel.
Regardless of whether it says First Day or not, your covers were not canceled on the first day of issue for those stamps. Your covers have pictorial cancels, which happen to commemorate an event. Your covers did not go through the mailstream, and some collectors will refer to them as event covers. But I usually won't call them that unless they have a special cachet -- in other words, I expect the cover to commemorate the event (not just the cancel).
The top cover commemorates President Reagan's visit to his boyhood home of Dixon, IL.
I'm not familiar with the event (Sandwich Fair) commemorated in the bottom cover, other than what it says on the pictorial cancel.
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this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
Thank you for the education KHJ. I have some true First Day covers in my collection and I realized that these two "commemoratives" were not quite the same. Hence my question about what the are exactly.
Do people collect these "event covers" or "commemorative covers" at all, or are they more or less worthless? Thanks,
Paul.
Login to Like
this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
People do collect them, but like stamps, the majority of them do not retail for more than the original face value of the stamp. The value is in the history/event it commemorates.
Of course, there are general exceptions, such as Space Covers. As with stamps, you have to know the market in order to know which ones are premium items.
Login to Like
this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
"On most modern US covers, the words "FIRST DAY" will usually be part of the official first day cancel."
As you said "on most". Sometimes the first day ceremony is held at a philatelic event so there can be pictorial cancels that are indeed first day covers. You can also find covers with town cancels that are "unofficial" first day covers, meaning that they are towns that were not the official first day city, but someone transported covers there on that same day for cancellation.
I don't know if thats popular today but it was way back. I did a lot of that back when I was servicing covers in the 1970s. For instance a stamp with an American flag on it was issued at a show in New York City. I got the official "First Day of Issue" cancels, both machine and hand cancel, and the show cancel. Then I got some related unofficial cancels by driving first to Union City, NJ and Liberty Corners, NJ. Collectors loved that. I also tried to get as many town cancels as I could on other issues. So it's always good to check the catalog for the first day when you have a cover in question.
Pictorial cancels like shown by OP are collected a few ways. First they're a nice souvenir of the day or event so non-collectors will save them. People do include them in topical collections, such as cancels related to Lindberg or ones picturing a car. I have a NJ state postmark collection and I've been including special cancels that I already own. I wouldn't be going out of my way to pay money for them though. And as said, those covers go for a few cents to a dollar or so.
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this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
For the most part, event covers are a genial fundraising device.
They are something of a souvenir, targeted towards people who attend an event, or towards members (and other folks) supporting the sponsoring organization.
As KHJ points-out, they usually feature a cachet.
Your 'Sandwich IL Fair Station' is a slogan cancel applied at a temporary post office (sub-station) operating at that event.
The 'STA' at the bottom of your 'Dixon IL President Visits Home Town' suggests that this slogan cancel was only in use at a sub-station on the day of the visit:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19840206&id=8a4SAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hPkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5561,864908&hl=en
Slogan cancels for some events (eg World's Fairs) have been used on much of the mail for that city/region for a much longer period of time.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Jul 2015
02:46:06am
re: Are These First Day Covers?
" .... Do people collect these "event covers" or "commemorative covers" at all, or are they more or less worthless? ...."
First, Paul, people collect all kinds of things, so somewhere there may well be someone just sitting quietly at a desk poring through piles of covers looking for some aspect of collecting that one or the other of your items would illustrate.
The problem that affects value is how many "somebodies" there are, where they dwell and how to connect with them.
Over the years I've seen posts by, or sites of, collectors who study some single issue, some seemingly insignificant classification of stamps or covers, some person, place or event, so many that I am almost certain someone is interested in some facet of those issues, or cancellations.
In fact, knowing that, I have a closet full of what is essentially, to me, junk, but I know that someday, should I live long enough, I will come across someone who will be thrilled, well, ....perhaps just a little, to acquire what I simply can't throw away.
So the difference between "worthless" or treasured totem is a matter of subjectivity and the size of my closet.
When I do "close my album" for the last time my children may well have one hell of a bonfire.
Login to Like
this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
Paul:
All those event covers do have some interest to people, especially topical collectors. Some covers honour balloon festivals, opening days for sports events, etc.
As an example, the first cover honours President Ronald Reagan visiting his hometown of Dixon, IL. That is the sort of thing that I would have in my Ronald Reagan topical collection.
Yes, there are people who collect items like that.
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
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this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
"Slogan cancels for some events (eg World's Fairs) have been used on much of the mail for that city/region for a much longer period of time."
Here's two examples of early fair slogan cancels.
Login to Like
this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
Once again the wealth of knowledge that folks here are willing to share is amazing. Thank you all for the education. I have another interesting cover / commemorative I need some help with, but I just need to get the pictures organized first. Hope you all have a great day, and thanks for the help,
Paul.
Login to Like
this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
So I have now come across another interesting item in my collection. It does not quite appear to be a "First Day Cover", I could not find a FDC cancellation mark, so I am thinking it is probably a commemorative of some type.
The interesting thing, is that it seems to have 2 cancellation marks on it, from the same day in different cities. Here is a picture of the address side of the envelope:
It seems to be commemorating the "Jet Air Mail Service" that possibly connected the three cities of Pittsburgh, Chicago and Los Angeles in the 1950s. Although my dates might be off. Here is a close up of the "Jet Air Mail Service" stamp:
And then a close up of the Pittsburgh cancellation:
And it seems to be mailed to somebody in Pittsburgh. Close up of address below:
Now here is where I get perplexed. The other side of the envelope seems to be commemorating the bicentenary of Pittsburgh. See image below:
And here is a close up of the commemoration message:
Now there is another cancellation on this side of the envelope that seems to bear the same date, July 25th, as the cancellation on the address side of the envelope:
Except this cancellation seems to be from Chicago, IL. Was this envelope cancelled in 2 cities in one day? Does this type of envelope / cancellation / commemorative have a special name? Once again, any information anybody can provide would be greatly appreciated and quickly absorbed. Thanks, and hope you all have a great day,
Paul.
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this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
Paul:
The first cover pictured is a FFC - First flight Cover.
The last postmark shown is called a Barrel Postmark. Canada and the United States used barrel postmarks.
Another item... AMF in the postmark stands for Air Mail Facility.
Hope this helps!
David
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this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
It is a flight cover, yes philatelic in nature. It was requested by someone for the Pittsburgh lady, it wasn't sent to Chicago in error, it went on that commemorative flight. It's customary to give this type of cover a receiving postmark to prove it was flown. I'm questioning why it didn't have a Los Angelos cancel since the cachet states it should've continued on. Only once it was serviced would it be released in normal mail to the addressee
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re: Are These First Day Covers?
I found it all confusing as I assume it went to Chicago after Pittsburgh, but then it had a Pittsburgh mailing address on the front so it seemed strange to start in Pittsburgh, go to Chicago and then return to Pittsburgh.
Some other commemorative / first day covers I got in the same group also have this Pittsburgh address on, so I assume that was the ultimate delivery destination for the envelope.
Maybe it was received early in the morning in Pittsburgh and then somebody with the Jet Air Mail Service flew to Chicago the same morning, had it stamped at the Air Mail Facility there, then brought it back to Pittsburgh later on?
Fascinating trying to figure it out. Thanks,
Paul.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
16 Jul 2015
03:07:44am
re: Are These First Day Covers?
" ....
Maybe it was received early in the morning in Pittsburgh and then somebody with the Jet Air Mail Service flew to Chicago the same morning, had it stamped at the Air Mail Facility there, then brought it back to Pittsburgh later on? ...."
That is a good possibility, Paul. It also might be a good idea to keep in mind that not every piece of mail handled by the postal service actually proceeds logically from mailing point to delivery.
Also for may years it has been an open secret that on occasion, anticipating a busy day a postmark may be physically applied earlier with the ceremonial date, or discovering that the clerks were swamped with courtesy requests, a backdated cancellation is applied.
Now usually regular mail has properly dated cancellations, but for First Day of issue and first flight covers, a cover might just have been prepared the day before in anticipation of an early flight.
Login to Like
this post
re: Are These First Day Covers?
"not every piece of mail handled by the postal service actually proceeds logically from mailing point to delivery."
An Irish example:I live at nr.19.If I was to post a letter to Nr.20,next door I would put it in the Post Box.It would be collected and taken to the local Post Office.They would sort it and then send it to Co.Cork ( about a 100 miles from here !)They would sort it again and return it to the local Post office,and then 2 days later it would be delivered next door.When I asked a Post Office employee why this was done I was informed that it was more efficient ?????
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re: Are These First Day Covers?
Oh so true, the mail does not always follow a logical route. I just got a letter back in the mail yesterday, July 16th. It was a regular first class envelope, mailed to a person across town a mile or two away from where I am. The letter was marked "Unable to deliver, unable to forward, return to sender". Strange thing was, the envelope had "Seasons Greetings" written on the top of it because I had mailed it out on December 23rd, 2014! Where it had been for the last 6+ months is anybody's guess. Nice of the postal service to eventually return it though I guess.
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re: Are These First Day Covers?
Here's a typical first Day Cancel on a Postcard
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