Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
10:12:09am
I have a number of examples that would qualify, but here is one I came across just the other day:
What we would call the "10th anniversary of the Berlin Wall", East Germany describes as:
10th anniversary of the Anti-fascist Protective Wall
10 years of safe protection of Peace and Socialism
Roy
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Roy,
Very interesting post. I wholeheartedly agree. It can help us to see another point of view. This brings to my mind a well known book, 1984, where the government wanted to censor its citizens. It happened in the story to the point of re-writing history and re-writing the dictionary (newspeak).
Philatelic history confronts us with artifacts of history. It hasn't been re-written by anyone. It just is there, staring us in the face. It's not such a bad thing to reflect on other points of view.
Adam
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10:50:56am
"It's not such a bad thing to reflect on other points of view."
Adam, if more people felt that way, we would have far fewer problems in this world!
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indeed, this is fascinating, in much the same way that Bob's elusive Viet Mihn stamp is, as a soldier stands atop the defeater commander's bunker.
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""It's not such a bad thing to reflect on other points of view.""
But is that truly a "point of view"? I'm sure if you asked the common person in the DDR, they would say that was just some self-righteous propaganda promulgated by the government. The true point of view comes from the people, not the government that controls them.
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Michael,
You raise a good point. It probably does reflect the point of view of the government propaganda machine, but there were surely some common citizens who would have agreed with it. Looking back we can observe the failure of the policy and its blindness to freedom. It makes an interesting historical study. It makes me appreciate the freedoms I enjoy: "The Blessings of Liberty".
Adam
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I think that the "some" you refer to would be a minute percentage of the common people. Even those may say the mantra dictated by the totalitarian government to avoid being put in re-indoctrination schools (AKA - political prison), or being chained down in the middle of a military training field and bombed to death. This shows just how precious the First Amendment to the USA Constitution is, and it should never be taken for granted or trifled with. If we ever lose that, we will have lost it all.
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that is a fascinating perspective, Michael, and fits with Orwell's view of government. Certainly one can see wide divides in perception between Democrats and Republicans in the States.
So, in the west, did we just never see footage of people climbing over the wall to get into the DDR, but they were there?
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I have a history/geography book from the 1790's published in England that refers to what we call the "Revolutionary War" as the "Civil War"...... different point of view.
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"So, in the west, did we just never see footage of people climbing over the wall to get into the DDR, but they were there?"
Don't know if getting into the DDR was the thing to do if one was taking their family on vacation.
Plenty were killed by their government for trying to leave the DDR to get to the west. The wall was the least of the worries. There were the gun turrets and the minefield to get through before one reached the wall. There is a problem with your political system if you have to kill your citizens to keep them from leaving.
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"I have a history/geography book from the 1790's published in England that refers to what we call the "Revolutionary War" as the "Civil War"...... different point of view."
I can see that one. It was an uprising against the established government, which does constitute a civil war. Of course, and here is where another "point of view" takes hold, and it's important to understand, the victors get to re-write and conform history. However, when the truth is purposely distorted or obfuscated there is only the lie that remains. People are not dumb. They know better. Sometimes they just have to go along with the "party line" in order to remain alive.
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Very interesting post and topic. Thank you Roy.
By any definition all governments are controlling entities. Whether it be as umpire or totalitarian. We can only search historical records to obtain facts and then Judge or evaluate actions by particular governments using current thought as opposed to contemporary. Personally, and I know that many do not have this weight to carry, I find it very difficult to look at events from 100, 500, even thousands of years ago through the same eyes as someone who lived at the time. I find it difficult to wrap my head around actions, conditions, attitudes of history without a 2015 head on my shoulders. Even events I have lived through, 50's, 60's and the like are difficult to understand without looking through twenty-first century goggles.
Just my 2 cent Washington's worth.
The Rev.
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"But is that truly a "point of view"? "
For those for whom Soviet Germany was a good place to live, i would say yes.
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I'm particularly exercised by the 'smile' on the profiles in the first stamp, and the colours that make that dismal regime seem so bright and cheerful. I'm with Michael Numbers on this one: the DDR used stamps prolifically to persuade the Germans how lucky they were to be within the communist bloc. Only the very few who benefited materially would have agreed. (Time to watch that excellent film The Lives of Others again. Do check it out if you haven't seen it yet.)
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I only knew my late friend Peter Schobloch from the stamp clubs perspective...he was 17 in what was to become the Soviet zone and he could not find a British soldier to surrender to fast enough !
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Guthrum, The Lives of Others is great..a film i was able to watch more than once. A tale of redemption i would say.
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There are 3 sides to every coin.
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10:33:37pm
I find this sort of history fascinating. My family I think stayed on the West after the war. My grandparents moved to Canada in the 60s from Germany. Grandma just talked about how afraid her mom was. She didn't trust any government after that... The general view was that they thought the DDR was as bad as the Nazis they were afraid of being overthrown and oppressed. History like this should be kept and remembered. On a side note I just got some stamps with Hitler on them. My Great Grandmother would have burned as she did with ANYTHING military or Hitler after the war.(we are Jewish decent) But if we forget the past, it will only happen again. Stamps document the world, good and bad.
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"But if we forget the past, it will only happen again."
It is happening again. We just don't have to ignore the past, we can also ignore the present.
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Webpaper. The Revolutionary War
I've never known it described as a Civil War but at the time, the British often referred to it as The Rebellion.
A subject very close to my heart as, when researching my ancestry I was astonished to find one of my lines was a wealthy Loyalist family ejected from Boston c. 1788. The mother and six sons (most being British army officers) and a daughter, all came to London.
But they were not Loyalists to the Americans. And what about one of the sons who later consorted with John Adams in France and was appointed by Adams as secretary to John Paul Jones? From this side of the Atlantic, your hero was regarded as a traitor. The fact that Jones was extremely successful at attacking British shipping around our coast is something not widely known here.
So, as that old rascal Prof C E M Joad, was fond of saying, "It all depends on what you mean by ....".
I'll be very interested to know if any U.S. stamps feature John Paul Jones, as one would make an interesting contribution to my collection of documents.
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yes, there are John Paul Jones stamps: one is from the Navy issue and he appears with his Bonhomme Richard; the other is a 15c commemorative with his vignette in circle and his phrase "I have not yet begun to fight." The former was issued, I think, in the late 30s; the latter in October 1979.
David
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John Paul Jones was an interesting and misunderstood character. He was our first naval hero. He later went on to become an admiral in the Imperial Russian Navy.
His tomb at Annapolis (US naval Academy) is impressive.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
14 May 2015
10:12:09am
One of the things that I find fascinating about stamp collecting is its ability to make us think, open our eyes and present us with what I call "the view from the other side". While we may wholeheartedly disagree with the things we are exposed to on some stamps and covers, because of that exposure, we collectors have an opportunity denied to most of the general population: to understand that there is another view.
I have a number of examples that would qualify, but here is one I came across just the other day:
What we would call the "10th anniversary of the Berlin Wall", East Germany describes as:
10th anniversary of the Anti-fascist Protective Wall
10 years of safe protection of Peace and Socialism
Roy
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re: The view from the other side
Roy,
Very interesting post. I wholeheartedly agree. It can help us to see another point of view. This brings to my mind a well known book, 1984, where the government wanted to censor its citizens. It happened in the story to the point of re-writing history and re-writing the dictionary (newspeak).
Philatelic history confronts us with artifacts of history. It hasn't been re-written by anyone. It just is there, staring us in the face. It's not such a bad thing to reflect on other points of view.
Adam
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
14 May 2015
10:50:56am
re: The view from the other side
"It's not such a bad thing to reflect on other points of view."
Adam, if more people felt that way, we would have far fewer problems in this world!
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re: The view from the other side
indeed, this is fascinating, in much the same way that Bob's elusive Viet Mihn stamp is, as a soldier stands atop the defeater commander's bunker.
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11:41:30am
re: The view from the other side
""It's not such a bad thing to reflect on other points of view.""
But is that truly a "point of view"? I'm sure if you asked the common person in the DDR, they would say that was just some self-righteous propaganda promulgated by the government. The true point of view comes from the people, not the government that controls them.
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re: The view from the other side
Michael,
You raise a good point. It probably does reflect the point of view of the government propaganda machine, but there were surely some common citizens who would have agreed with it. Looking back we can observe the failure of the policy and its blindness to freedom. It makes an interesting historical study. It makes me appreciate the freedoms I enjoy: "The Blessings of Liberty".
Adam
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11:56:16am
re: The view from the other side
I think that the "some" you refer to would be a minute percentage of the common people. Even those may say the mantra dictated by the totalitarian government to avoid being put in re-indoctrination schools (AKA - political prison), or being chained down in the middle of a military training field and bombed to death. This shows just how precious the First Amendment to the USA Constitution is, and it should never be taken for granted or trifled with. If we ever lose that, we will have lost it all.
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re: The view from the other side
that is a fascinating perspective, Michael, and fits with Orwell's view of government. Certainly one can see wide divides in perception between Democrats and Republicans in the States.
So, in the west, did we just never see footage of people climbing over the wall to get into the DDR, but they were there?
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12:02:41pm
re: The view from the other side
I have a history/geography book from the 1790's published in England that refers to what we call the "Revolutionary War" as the "Civil War"...... different point of view.
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12:20:51pm
re: The view from the other side
"So, in the west, did we just never see footage of people climbing over the wall to get into the DDR, but they were there?"
Don't know if getting into the DDR was the thing to do if one was taking their family on vacation.
Plenty were killed by their government for trying to leave the DDR to get to the west. The wall was the least of the worries. There were the gun turrets and the minefield to get through before one reached the wall. There is a problem with your political system if you have to kill your citizens to keep them from leaving.
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12:24:22pm
re: The view from the other side
"I have a history/geography book from the 1790's published in England that refers to what we call the "Revolutionary War" as the "Civil War"...... different point of view."
I can see that one. It was an uprising against the established government, which does constitute a civil war. Of course, and here is where another "point of view" takes hold, and it's important to understand, the victors get to re-write and conform history. However, when the truth is purposely distorted or obfuscated there is only the lie that remains. People are not dumb. They know better. Sometimes they just have to go along with the "party line" in order to remain alive.
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re: The view from the other side
Very interesting post and topic. Thank you Roy.
By any definition all governments are controlling entities. Whether it be as umpire or totalitarian. We can only search historical records to obtain facts and then Judge or evaluate actions by particular governments using current thought as opposed to contemporary. Personally, and I know that many do not have this weight to carry, I find it very difficult to look at events from 100, 500, even thousands of years ago through the same eyes as someone who lived at the time. I find it difficult to wrap my head around actions, conditions, attitudes of history without a 2015 head on my shoulders. Even events I have lived through, 50's, 60's and the like are difficult to understand without looking through twenty-first century goggles.
Just my 2 cent Washington's worth.
The Rev.
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this post
re: The view from the other side
"But is that truly a "point of view"? "
For those for whom Soviet Germany was a good place to live, i would say yes.
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this post
re: The view from the other side
I'm particularly exercised by the 'smile' on the profiles in the first stamp, and the colours that make that dismal regime seem so bright and cheerful. I'm with Michael Numbers on this one: the DDR used stamps prolifically to persuade the Germans how lucky they were to be within the communist bloc. Only the very few who benefited materially would have agreed. (Time to watch that excellent film The Lives of Others again. Do check it out if you haven't seen it yet.)
Login to Like
this post
re: The view from the other side
I only knew my late friend Peter Schobloch from the stamp clubs perspective...he was 17 in what was to become the Soviet zone and he could not find a British soldier to surrender to fast enough !
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re: The view from the other side
Guthrum, The Lives of Others is great..a film i was able to watch more than once. A tale of redemption i would say.
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Dogs are my favorite people. I hang with this one as often as I can.
15 May 2015
10:08:21am
re: The view from the other side
There are 3 sides to every coin.
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Wanting to bring the joy of stamp collecting to younger generations
16 May 2015
10:33:37pm
re: The view from the other side
I find this sort of history fascinating. My family I think stayed on the West after the war. My grandparents moved to Canada in the 60s from Germany. Grandma just talked about how afraid her mom was. She didn't trust any government after that... The general view was that they thought the DDR was as bad as the Nazis they were afraid of being overthrown and oppressed. History like this should be kept and remembered. On a side note I just got some stamps with Hitler on them. My Great Grandmother would have burned as she did with ANYTHING military or Hitler after the war.(we are Jewish decent) But if we forget the past, it will only happen again. Stamps document the world, good and bad.
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10:40:29pm
re: The view from the other side
"But if we forget the past, it will only happen again."
It is happening again. We just don't have to ignore the past, we can also ignore the present.
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04:15:56pm
re: The view from the other side
Webpaper. The Revolutionary War
I've never known it described as a Civil War but at the time, the British often referred to it as The Rebellion.
A subject very close to my heart as, when researching my ancestry I was astonished to find one of my lines was a wealthy Loyalist family ejected from Boston c. 1788. The mother and six sons (most being British army officers) and a daughter, all came to London.
But they were not Loyalists to the Americans. And what about one of the sons who later consorted with John Adams in France and was appointed by Adams as secretary to John Paul Jones? From this side of the Atlantic, your hero was regarded as a traitor. The fact that Jones was extremely successful at attacking British shipping around our coast is something not widely known here.
So, as that old rascal Prof C E M Joad, was fond of saying, "It all depends on what you mean by ....".
I'll be very interested to know if any U.S. stamps feature John Paul Jones, as one would make an interesting contribution to my collection of documents.
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re: The view from the other side
yes, there are John Paul Jones stamps: one is from the Navy issue and he appears with his Bonhomme Richard; the other is a 15c commemorative with his vignette in circle and his phrase "I have not yet begun to fight." The former was issued, I think, in the late 30s; the latter in October 1979.
David
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05:27:15pm
re: The view from the other side
John Paul Jones was an interesting and misunderstood character. He was our first naval hero. He later went on to become an admiral in the Imperial Russian Navy.
His tomb at Annapolis (US naval Academy) is impressive.
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